Are LEDs Misunderstood?

[MerryPrankstr]

OrganicMoney,

If I could get a 125 Watt LED bulb for the same price as a 125 watt CFL, or a 400, maybe even a 1000 Watt LED for the same price as a HID bulb, but I can't.

Aye ! There's the rub !

A 1000 Watt LED would take a lot of cooling, I have a 12 Watt and it has a radiator that isn't liquid filled but it's a steel that radiates h

Yep, but there are ways around it. My second lamp was a 1 KW using 15 watt emitters. Lots of heat as you say but instead of being radiated in all directions like conventional bulbs the heat is near the emitter junction. I used flattened copper pipe as my heat sink and run water in a circulating loop to remove the heat from the LED Junction. This heat is dumped outside the room. Nice....

There is a commercial lamp available built in a similar manner rated at 600 watts output, but it cost around $2,500.00 last time I looked.

Again, there's the rub....
As cost come down due to LED manufacture ramp up this will become possible in the same cost as HID arc lamps. Industry gestimates are around 2114.

later, bud!

 

[secondtry]

Dear Mr. Green Mountain, the venting that is required for a 600w lamp in a cabinet would be extremely non stealth. Thar gives up a huge red flag in the closet growing scene.

I agree a 600w HID in a closet is not good, but a 400w CMH, sure, no problem if it's setup correctly. If you really want to have hands on expensive then use a 400w CMH to compare to the LED. The fact you have only used CFL before makes you a very poor judge of LEDs quality vs. an HID...however, if you understood the quantum physics of HID and LED I would not have a problem with you making judgments.

If you had your choice over led , floro, or CFL you would pick LED.

Why not put a 250w or 400w CMH in that list?

#3. Your one of these anti LED guys flailing around your data sheets and refuse the new technology like an old goat.

I assume you mean me, I am not flailing around, I am the ONLY one posting actual analytical data and the quantum physics of it all...why isn't that something good?

As far as my credibility I don't see anyone in the room besides me with real data not a copy and paste formula from my college text book lol!!!

Again I assume you are talking about me, however, I taught myself everything and nothing is copy/pasted, it all comes from my mind. I have taken zero college classes on these matters, I just read and read and read, and I have a near eidetic memory and very high IQ, I have well over 500 journal articles on there matters I have read. I have been studying these topics for about 5 years now...

 

[chef]

I'm really interested in that TLC.
If you need some beta testers? PM me, I'll purchase the scanner & software.

 

[FreezerBoy]

Also, how about making the LED vs. HID thread a sticky?

First lets see if you can conduct yourself in a manner that doesn't get the thread binned.

 

[asde²]

its simply not possible to judge a light source by ppfd so whats your point trying to do so?
i already told you but you ignored so once again: for a 1m² room more than 800w of hps is required to reach 1500 ppfd at canopy - 10 years ago growers already tried similar setups and came to the conclusion that its useless to have more than ~1000 ppfd with hps spd concerning yield/w, more like that, people start reporting better yield/w with less radiation like 250 ppfd (not hps spd) and now your trying to tell that all those results are wrong and 1500 ppfd is the best way to grow mj efficient..?
understanding all the basics before going advanced is the key to success

 

[GrnMtnGrwr]

Dear Mr. Green Mountain, the venting that is required for a 600w lamp in a cabinet would be extremely non stealth. Thar gives up a huge red flag in the closet growing scene.

If you had your choice over led , floro, or CFL you would pick LED.
Unless:

#1. your bud jet is limited and you don't need big plants.

#2. you have cfl setup already, might as well keep digging same grave

#3. Your one of these anti LED guys...

As far as my credibility I don't see anyone in the room besides me with real data not a copy and paste formula from my college text book lol!!!

nothing but, where did you get this 12 week number? the 2 grows I documented were complete in 8 weeks????

Although it would be nice,but we can't blame plant growing speed on LED's, it's the strain. Not that I would argue LED's Could maybe take a day or 2 longer MAYBE!

I'm well aware of the needs for ventilation and stealth in cabinets, and you're never going to make a real ventilation system silent, so you need to work with cover noise. Humidifiers, dehumidifiers, ACs, pedastal fans... plenty of things you can use to distract from and possibly help environmental conditions for your grow.

Sorry to break it to you since you seem so confident, but I wouldn't pick LED. IMO, it's not a proven product yet. I wouldn't pick any of the above for flowering, I would go with HID. Floros/CFLs are fine by me for a small veg/clone/mother box.

1. What does that even mean?
2. Using CFLs and continuing to do so is by absolutely no means "digging ones grave". This statement just proves you are biased and uninterested in fair comparison between light sources.
3. I'm not anti-LED, I'm just not going to be one of the first to jump in to this new tech. What I have works great for me, and has worked great for a long time, I'm not in any rush to drop thousands of dollars for what might not be an upgrade.

On your last point... so if a plant takes two days longer under LEDs... you can't blame that on the LEDs?

No it's not. There is no way for grower B to assume he can use yield data from grower A to make a judgment on a lamp; it's that simple. And what about the "yield is a solid number"? No one records the % of moisture content in the weighed bud (well, I do) and so people reporting they get 1 gpw with a LED can't be used to judge the quality of the lamp with accuracy because one is weighing the water and claiming that as yield! Thus two growers will generally have two different moisture contents to their buds, thus there is NOT an accurate comparison made. Do you see the problem here? Why is it that only cannabis growers want to use subjective yield data for a means of comparison?

Wrong. Grower B can use data derived from Grower A's grow, given the conditions were all documented. If one person grows a true side by side, changing only a single variable between the two lights, and weighed the result, that would be a pretty easy to gauge result.

Just because you think no one records the moisture content of their bud... sure as shit doesn't mean nobody does. Why don't you check out the curing link in my signature... it's a by the numbers approach, has been tested by several people, all with the same results. It is possible to compare results, it just takes a little more work to make sure conditions are the same.

 

[VerdantGreen]

First lets see if you can conduct yourself in a manner that doesn't get the thread binned.

hi Freezerboy - obviously it's your call, but i would like to see a bit of balance in any thread that was made a sticky - not just someone constantly beating everyone around the head with claims that ignore the fact that different growers have different requirements from their lights. whilst scientific data can be useful, to claim that yield and people's actual grows using LED's cannot contribute to the discussion is not only plain wrong but also shows the arrogence that the scientific world can often have in thinking that they can work everything out on paper to get all the answers. The childish petulance, arrogence and plain rudeness shown by certain contributors to these discussions should not, imo, be rewarded.
not everyone wants to use 600 or 1000 watt lamps - so to repeatedly discount everything else as useless and pointless for growing is not only misleading but also insulting. i can pull 10 ounces from my 250w without using commercial strains or CO2 - how is that silly or useless?

sorry for the rant

VG.

 

[OrganicMonkey]

OrganicMoney,Yep, but there are ways around it. My second lamp was a 1 KW using 15 watt emitters. Lots of heat as you say but instead of being radiated in all directions like conventional bulbs the heat is near the emitter junction. I used flattened copper pipe as my heat sink and run water in a circulating loop to remove the heat from the LED Junction. This heat is dumped outside the room. Nice....

There is a commercial lamp available built in a similar manner rated at 600 watts output, but it cost around $2,500.00 last time I looked.

Again, there's the rub....
As cost come down due to LED manufacture ramp up this will become possible in the same cost as HID arc lamps. Industry gestimates are around 2114.

later, bud!

What was the cost of your lamp, did you build it? Are you sure 2114? Sounds like 2014 but that sounds to early and what you posted sounds far to distant to be accurate.

 

[FreezerBoy]

So far, the only thread I've stickied is Growroom Electricity. And that only because it could be the difference between life or death.

I'm more concerned with simply keeping this thread open. I've already closed "Investing in new lights LED or HID?" due to imminent flame war. Editing others posts gives me the creeps and, I've done it here only to remove attacks so this thread can stay up.

To all and none in particular. Attack someone's science all you want but, limit your weapons to reason and rhetoric. Use insult and invective or make attacks personal and I'll have no choice but to step in.

That said, I reiterate my earlier statements. When curious about LED, try talking with those who have used them (Verdant, Sleepy, Blazeoneup and others) while being properly suspicious of those that refuse to try.

 

[MerryPrankstr]

I built the 600 watt for my own use. That's all the lamp I needed since I can also grow outside. I did built the 1kw with a friend for his use. The cost was around $4,000.00 for parts. The fab was considerably more difficult due to the water cooled heat sink.

The 2114 prediction was not based on any particular design, but rather the prediction of LED mfrs for indiviual LED's as reported in trade mags. They were talking about pricing in high power LED's not any particular lamp units or end user products. That would be up to people like LEDGirl to package and sell and they are on their own product cycle schedule.


I should have made myself clearer.

They are already being used in some cities for street lighting, etc.

I only built these to satisfy my personal needs and have no desire to produce them. There is a do-it yourself instruction post at another site that uses the same LED's I did to construct the 1KW lamp. Their design is even simpler than mine and is modular so you can scale the lights to your needs. It's down to the point you can buy monolithic IC drivers chips that greatly simplify the build and assure efficient operation.

I'd be more than happy to describe how I built the water jacket lamp assemblies to anyone who wants to use the design, but I'm retired and have zero desire to make one for anyone else.

catch ya later...

 

[PetFlora]

Hi PetFlora

So my question to you is what you call 2nd generation G2LED's. Just to get some common ground for conversation's sake so wee can talk apples to apples.


G2LED is a company. www.g2led.com They make industrial lighting.

To my knowledge they have not developed a specific grow light. Their regular lights are just adaptable to our application. Trying to get any substantiation from them is like pulling teeth

 

[PetFlora]

MerryPrankster

It is my firm belief that the new emerging light sources will allow understanding of plant growth and behavior and allow us to grow in a manner we have just begun to discover. Did you ever hear of Martian Night grows? (Google it !) Lots of really exciting new ways to grow more smartly and productively.

I have searched for Martian Night grows before, and just now- 12 pages. Nothing comes up on IE. Suggestions?

 

[GrnMtnGrwr]

400 to hot, way to much noise, ballast and more, 250 watt is no better than led plus it's still way hotter..

While I agree with most of your rebuttals towards secondtry... this is a pretty poor argument, as you've presented nothing measurable. Unless we're talking about some very specific conditions I'm unaware of...

 

[MerryPrankstr]

Doh! I shudda known....

Doh! I shudda known....

G2LED is a company. www.g2led.com They make industrial lighting.

One good turn deserves another...
Here a couple of companies I think are ahead of the curve. Of course YMMV.
Lumigrow
I like the idea of the variable blue/red ratio on this one...
TI-Smartlamps
This one's the company that makes a water cooled model.
My son is using my home made lamp so I'm using one of their 300 watt models to grow out some Chemdog IX-III as we speak. They are 11 Days into 12/12 cycle now.
Indoor Agriculture

Finally a place that you can order these, and more.

Gotta go...
Catch ya later

P.S Check your private messages fo a link to Martian Nights Grow

 

[secondtry]

First lets see if you can conduct yourself in a manner that doesn't get the thread binned.

I think you locked the thread not for fear of flame war becuse if it had not happened by the 18th page it wasn't going to happen! I think you did so to protect a certain vendor on this site...

And it's not like I was the only one in that thread getting a bit hot, I was however about the one of the very few stating proven science which seems to confound most ICers...but wait, they still have yield.

And as the old saying goes: "it takes two to argue"...

 

[secondtry]

I'm really interested in that TLC.
If you need some beta testers? PM me, I'll purchase the scanner & software.

Sure will do, I will let you know once I have my site up, but I could PM a zip folder of lots of literature and documents where I got my method if you want to read up. Just let me know.

 

[FreezerBoy]

I think you locked the thread not for fear of flame war becuse if it had not happened by the 18th page it wasn't going to happen! I think you did so to protect a certain vendor on this site...

I locked it to keep you from being banned.

However, if you'd rather I don't keep putting out your fires and saving your membership privileges, there is an easier solution.

 

[Nicedreamz]

i think i would use LED's just because i have a heat issue ....i do want to have the Best buds not necessarily the most buds

 

[GrnMtnGrwr]

secondtry, I don't understand why you're more focused on testing the light itself, rather than the end product it creates. Hopefully you're not banned before you get a chance to do your perfect scientific tests, because I'd like to see them.

Even if harvest weight isn't a good measure, why not go by something like actual cannabinoid harvest weight?

How do you measure efficiency? Since yield doesn't matter, what do you look at? Not grams per watt, but...

 

[FreezerBoy]

Why not ban everyone who contributed to the flaming in that thread?

Because you're the instigator. I save you from getting banned and you brand me a pimp. The proper response on your part would've been, "Thank You. Won't happen again, Sir."

As you have said, you have absolutely no experience with LEDs and are doing a test for no reason other than forwarding your agenda. We can do without such behavior and, trust me, I can make it stop.