Any 1.5+ grams per Watt grows????

[VerdantGreen]

Verdant , you`re entitled to your opinion , and you can disagree with me till you`re blue in the face but.......

Plant numbers do in fact dictate yield , and there`s nothing simple about gram per watt measurements.....

hi DHF, i can assure you i have no intention of arguing with anyone until i'm blue in the face. i think your 'plant numbers dictate yield' is too much of an absolute statement and, as such, it is incorrect and incomplete

It`s grams per watt , per month , per cycle , per yr for as many harvests as possible within those parameters......

It also HAS to take into account how long you veg your plants for BEFORE you flip to 12/12 , since you seem to only wanna compare the flower cycle as to what dictates grams per watt when it`s not that simple , nor cut and dried......

im pretty sure the simple flower cycle gpw was what the thread starter was referring to.

When you throw fully rooted cuts pre-vegged from a separate area into a bloom room with as many as you can pack in side by side , above and below on all 4 walls with bare bulbs to where they don`t grow into each other or above into the next level without competing for light OR environment , THEN you`re doing away with the veg part of the equation and MAXIMIZING your gpw`s..........

thats one way of doing it, there are many as we both well know. vegging plants can be achieved perfectly well under minimal watts compared to flowering. it really depends on how your grow is set up, whether space, time or power consumption are your limiting factors, and whether you have separate dedicated veg areas or not.

See ?....not so simple as you purported things to be as in your micro grow climates.......

i didnt mention anything about micro grows at all, but thanks for throwing that in my grows have had many different shapes ans sizes over he last 20 years, and i wouldnt try and tell everyone that something was 'gospel' just because thats how it is in my own current grow.

It`s a lot easier to get higher gpw`s with small grows and miniature light setups with increased vegtimes , and where I live , if I got popped with 1 plant or 1000 , I`d have been lookin at the same sentence......cultivation for the purpose of distribution with life without parole as the worst case scenario .....

plant count is important where i am in the eyes of the law, thats why i think its important to say that you dont need huge plant numbers to get huge yields. heaths tree grows seem to do ok

Plant numbers dictate yield......period....without increased vegtime runnin fewer plants.....under NORMAL type multiple light HID setups.....

Peace....DHF.........

when you say 'normal' type setups, what's normal? normal for you?. like i say, whilst it's nice to have snappy sweeping statements to bandy about, i dont think this one tells the whole story

VG

 

[VerdantGreen]

what does influence yield?
i would say a combination of genetics, bud density in the usable canopy, watt's/square foot, reflector efficiency (if you use one), root space, flowering time, im sure i've missed a few.
ime all these things, as well as plant numbers, will effect your yield.

and if course how you measure yield will effect your yield - from the simple gpw to gpw/day/square foot. thats a whole other discussion.

VG

 

[smoke1sun]

Im tryin to vdo "my homework" but I can't seem to find any info on this new way to estimate efficiency?

Anybody got any links to grows who use this method? And their findings?

How do I factor in my veg time if I veg in my mother room under the same lights that I would be using to light my mothers anyways?

It just seems to me with this way to estimate it could go on, and on.
But i must admit I never have used this formula, and i dont understand it.

And I also cant find the info to help me understand it.

 

[DHF]

Smoke1......this is not new info , but rather as old as weedsites on the internet and perpetual grow setups.......

And for the record VG , Heath Robinson is one of the original forerunners of maximizing his gpw`s in the explanation I made earlier.......

Also.....Heath runs big plant grows for his amusement only since it takes so long to veg big plants and cycle em out till harvest , but he bores easily , and is constantly trying/inventing new setups for "production"........

I assure you that Heath`s got more rooms than Hilton hotels for production , so bringing up him as an example of less plants for more gpw`s is fairly ludicrous since most ALL of his setups employ OUTRAGEOUS amounts of plant numbers to pull his yields/gpw........and in fact ......

He`s the 1 that showed me the that "plant numbers dictate yield" VG , and it`s actually His quote from several yrs back , not mine......

No more from me on this OLD subject.......You seem to know what you THINK it`s all about VG........Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.....

Peace...DHF.......

 

[VerdantGreen]

Im tryin to vdo "my homework" but I can't seem to find any info on this new way to estimate efficiency?

Anybody got any links to grows who use this method? And their findings?

How do I factor in my veg time if I veg in my mother room under the same lights that I would be using to light my mothers anyways?

It just seems to me with this way to estimate it could go on, and on.
But i must admit I never have used this formula, and i dont understand it.

And I also cant find the info to help me understand it.

there are a lot of discussions about how best to measure grow efficiency, but the problem is that as your calculation becomes more and more complicated, it also becomes less universal and thus harder to compare figures with others.
no-one would argue that grams per watt (generally measured for the flower cycle) is perfect, but at least its an easy calculation that everyone can perform and compare with each other. grams/watt/month is also reasonably simple and takes time into the equation.
i also veg plants in my mum cab and in a very small veg space. i just put a pre-98 bubba into flower that had been vegged for 2 months under what, if i worked it out, would be less than 5 watts of t5' light. im happy to say that the power used is negligible and the time it took cost me nothing because it wasnt taking up flowering space.

--

DHF, fair enough, i notice you didnt try and say that my list of factors influencing yield was BS. yes i know what i think it's all about, as it seems do you , but i wouldnt try to make a sweeping generalization about it that only took one factor into account.
personally i think its a bit irresponsible to try and tell people that the only way to get high yields is to run huge numbers of small plants - that could have real consequences for growers if the sh1t hits the fan and they get busted.

VG

 

[redneck shogun]

Everyone knew one of those guys back in the day that had to beat that game in the arcade no matter how many quarters it cost them. Some of the people posting here remind me of that guy. Me I always thought it sort of sucked the fun out of it.

 

[jakeh]

"DHF, fair enough, i notice you didnt try and say that my list of factors influencing yield was BS. yes i know what i think it's all about, as it seems do you , but i wouldnt try to make a sweeping generalization about it that only took one factor into account.
personally i think its a bit irresponsible to try and tell people that the only way to get high yields is to run huge numbers of small plants - that could have real consequences for growers if the sh1t hits the fan and they get busted."

If your goal is to learn how to produce as much as possible on this site for a given space be it trees or sog and I had one suggestion it would be this. Look at DHF's profile and read every one of his posts. There is more to be learned in his 793 posts to date than anywhere else I can think of. Numbers are just one part and if you read his posts you will see that. When he talks about 'dialage' he mentions everything under the sun that is a major factor which includes what you mentioned and more. If you think he is highly opinionated and a disagreeable sort he is nothing compared to Krusty who was booted from every site he ever got on in very short order. As for irresponsible to suggest running huge numbers I would save that criticism for Dr. Bud? before I ever would DHF. Anyone on this site that has made the decision to grow knows the consequences. If you grow tomatoes in your garden (literal tomatoes) for your own consumption there is a lot to be learned from commercial tomato growers to apply to your given situation. The DHF's of the world give us that. If you want to know how to get the most production out of no more than 10 plants at any 1 given time you could get as good an answer out of DHF as anyone I can think of.

 

[VerdantGreen]

hi jakeh, thanks for the advice. indeed DHF is an experienced grower who has a lot to teach. i am also an experienced grower that gets high yields, and some people look to me for advice too. i happen to disagree with DHF on his assertion that 'plant numbers dictate yields - period' - as i said i think it's much more complicated than that. i would prefer to get caught with 10 plants than 100 and i think i could get the same yield out of either given the correct setup and space.
anyhow it sounds like we agree about numbers just being one part of the equation, that was my whole point

VG

p.s. i do grow tomatoes in my own garden, as well as just about any other fruit and veg that you could mention.

 

[smoke1sun]

there are a lot of discussions about how best to measure grow efficiency, but the problem is that as your calculation becomes more and more complicated, it also becomes less universal and thus harder to compare figures with others.
no-one would argue that grams per watt (generally measured for the flower cycle) is perfect, but at least its an easy calculation that everyone can perform and compare with each other. grams/watt/month is also reasonably simple and takes time into the equation.
i also veg plants in my mum cab and in a very small veg space. i just put a pre-98 bubba into flower that had been vegged for 2 months under what, if i worked it out, would be less than 5 watts of t5' light. im happy to say that the power used is negligible and the time it took cost me nothing because it wasnt taking up flowering space.

--



VG

Thank's for the info V

male groupies.

 

[ItGrows]

Generalization is for people with small brains... uhoh did i just do it. =\

 

[DHF]

I`d like to apologize for being so stern about the fact that "plant numbers dictate yield"....period , when most of you that`ve posted negative feedback just simply don`t understand , along with you as well VG......so......

What I probably should`ve said was that in all the ways to grow dope with varying veg times taking MORE time to come to end results , increased plant numbers with lil to NO vegtime is the most "efficient" way to bring home the bacon time after time , per month , per cycle , per year.....

There IS no competition with increased plant numbers flipped directly to 12/12 due to the fact "there`s NO vegtime involved" that adds to the time dramatically it takes to bring plants to harvest ok ?........

I took offense to VG`s statement on disagreeing , without any foundation for his statement to stand on other than his concern over gettin busted with "less" plants instead of "more"....

Then he comes back with Heath`s tree grow`s as the perfect example of less plants for increased yields without once talking about the time expended on vegging big plants to a certain size before flippin em to 12/12 to finish out their cycle , when Heath`s the 1 that taught me this..........

And again.......the very statement you made about veggin Bubba for 2 months before the flip proves my point in that there can be no repetition/rotations of sorts if you take 4-5 months for 1 plant to harvest......

Once more for the record.....I`m no knowitall and learn new things daily , but over the yrs of doin this and witnessing first hand what Heath Robinson schooled me on well over 12 yrs ago , the "most efficient" setup for the gpw`s over a "yearly" basis is increased plant numbers ftw.......period.....

Anything other than that takes way more increased vegtime that takes that much longer for the plants to finish on any type of schedule........period.....

Please everyone.....If it was only the flower cycle that determined grams per watt , it wouldn`t matter if you vegged a plant for 6 months and yielded 10 lbs off 1 plant......

I ran 4 plants in 10 x 10 rooms for almost a decade scaredta death about gettin busted.....with 4 plants and 10 lbs per harvey.......so I understand your thoughts VG , I just don`t agree with em cuz I`ve been there....Leo gives 2 shits about how many plants you`ve got where I live.......once caught , it`s over.....

Heath showed me the way to perpetual production setups that allowed me to retire in `09 with no regrets and many many runs under my belt to help folks with and try and show em how to maximize their efforts without all the trial and error........

My apologies again to the folks that think I`m tryinta be Mr Absolute with no room for latitude , and everthing I say`s right and everyone else is wrong.......

There`s many waysta skin a mule , but I`d liketa think most would wanna learn the most "efficient" method.......and ......

Heath`s the 1 that TAUGHT me "plant numbers dictate yield" , so it`s not like I`m alone in my findings and experiences from following the mad scientist`s suggestions.......

Many many folks I`ve taught this run SOG`s in Cali with flat grows that approach 4lbs per 1KW with the most simple yield machine there is.....the ebb and flow table with horizontal air cooled reflectors...

That`s 1.8 gpw on FLAT grows.....It takes a clone factory ta feed the beast for yearly production rates , but in Cali clones are a dime a dozen........

Increased plant numbers on all 4 walls AND the floor surrounding stacked bare bulbs blastin sideways is the next 5 lb per 1 KW setup IME......

Just tryin ta help folks.....

Peace...DHF.........

 

[VerdantGreen]

hey DHF, i dont think you have any need to apologize, you do things in a certain way and so so i. as for your explanation... i still stand by what i say above.
veg time 'in situ' in your main space is flowering time wasted, but veg time in a separate area does not cost you flowering time, or many watts really. if you are vegging under lights that would be on over your mums anyway then thats pretty much free.

anyway, like you say there are many ways to grow good weed with high yields. everyone needs to find a way that works for them and they really believe is doing the best for them - and there is no need to fall out over differences of opinion in growing herb, each to their own. sometimes i have learned a lot from reading 2 growers having a debate about something they disagree on.

VG

 

[Rolando Mota]

High plant count grows can yield well, but you need to account for the veg time to grow out mothers big enough to take a lot of cuts. For me, it makes more sense to put those watts towards vegging plants than growing mothers.

 

[CLOWD11]

Its pretty clear if we want a comparable gpw figure, the flower wattage divided by the grams produced is the most effective and most used method.
This is evidenced by DHF not being able to calculate "5 days of 18W cfl(seedling) + 38 days 55W(veg) + 62 days of 220W with a result of 238g" which then should be calculated into a 12 month phase to reach a figure. No thanks. Not ever!
KISS

 

[mrktwiz]

"DHF, fair enough, i notice you didnt try and say that my list of factors influencing yield was BS. yes i know what i think it's all about, as it seems do you , but i wouldnt try to make a sweeping generalization about it that only took one factor into account.
personally i think its a bit irresponsible to try and tell people that the only way to get high yields is to run huge numbers of small plants - that could have real consequences for growers if the sh1t hits the fan and they get busted."

If your goal is to learn how to produce as much as possible on this site for a given space be it trees or sog and I had one suggestion it would be this. Look at DHF's profile and read every one of his posts. There is more to be learned in his 793 posts to date than anywhere else I can think of. Numbers are just one part and if you read his posts you will see that. When he talks about 'dialage' he mentions everything under the sun that is a major factor which includes what you mentioned and more. If you think he is highly opinionated and a disagreeable sort he is nothing compared to Krusty who was booted from every site he ever got on in very short order. As for irresponsible to suggest running huge numbers I would save that criticism for Dr. Bud? before I ever would DHF. Anyone on this site that has made the decision to grow knows the consequences. If you grow tomatoes in your garden (literal tomatoes) for your own consumption there is a lot to be learned from commercial tomato growers to apply to your given situation. The DHF's of the world give us that. If you want to know how to get the most production out of no more than 10 plants at any 1 given time you could get as good an answer out of DHF as anyone I can think of.

Amen...I am in the process of trying to read everything DHF posted so far almost everything he has posted was in an attempt to help someone or share his considerable knowledge with. He and Bobblehead turned me onto Heath Robinson and now I am heading to try and build this spring one of Heath's simple designs,

I owe a lot to ICMag and to a few very important peeps here that I listen too and read everything they post...DHF is one of them.

Peace!

 

[Anti]

Example #1: 4 plants in a 10x10, each plant vegging for 2 months + flower of 65 days = 62+65=131 days

Example #2: 400 plants in a 10x10, each plant having been a freshly rooted clone + flower of 65 days = 0+65=65 days.

You can run Example #1 (131 days per cycle) 2.78 times per year.

You can run Example #2 (65 days per cycle) 5.61 times per year.

Let's assume for argument sake that we already did a lot of experimenting and found that 4 large plants in a 10x10 room bring in 2 lbs. (1/2 lbs per plant.) Let's also assume for this discussion that you can get the same 2 lbs off of 400 straight-from-clone-no-veg tiny plantlets.If your 4 large plants yielded the same as your 400 tiny plantlets (2 lbs.) then each plantlet would have yielded 2.27g each.*

*It doesn't matter what the real world yield is. I personally yield more than 8g per un-vegged clone in my own system, so 2.27g would be some pitiful looking plants. What matters is that if you are comparing a room's maximum potential yield and you dialed it in with large or small plants, you can do more cycles per year if you use the smaller plants and eliminate vegging.


Ok. So here's where the year calculation comes in.

In Example #1, you can only do this 2.78 times a year for a total yearly yield of 2lbs x 2.78 cycles = 5.56 lbs per year.

In Example #2, you can do this 5.61 times per year for a total yearly yield of 2lbs x 5.61 cycles = 11.22 lbs per year.

So even if we ignore things like separate veg areas, etc. we can see that by using many smaller un-vegged plants that we can achieve a considerably higher yield.

This is all DHF is saying.

Correct me if I'm wrong, D.

 

[bobblehead]

Its pretty clear if we want a comparable gpw figure, the flower wattage divided by the grams produced is the most effective and most used method.
This is evidenced by DHF not being able to calculate "5 days of 18W cfl(seedling) + 38 days 55W(veg) + 62 days of 220W with a result of 238g" which then should be calculated into a 12 month phase to reach a figure. No thanks. Not ever!
KISS

Shut your face and go troll someone else. Just because you can't figure out how to do the math doesn't mean DHF doesn't know what he's talking about. You don't have to grow the whole year to figure out what your monthly average is. Add up the number of watts used in a month... Veg, flower, etc... So you need to count lamp hours, to get a total wattage. You take your product produced, and the amount of time it took to produce it... and voila, gpw per month. It's not very complicated. You don't even have to grow all year, you just have to do your average over however many months you did grow.

 

[DaPurps]

Seperate veg area or seperate mom area, whats the difference. I understand what DHF is saying. But lets just use Anti's example, which is a good one. To get those 400 clones you have a seperate space. To get the 4 bigger plants you have a seperate space. Therefore the flower room is running the same cycles per year and pulling the same yeild, with less plants. I think this is where the disagreement is. You can't discount a seperate veg area and not discount the mothers.

 

[Anti]

Seperate veg area or seperate mom area, whats the difference. I understand what DHF is saying. But lets just use Anti's example, which is a good one. To get those 400 clones you have a seperate space. To get the 4 bigger plants you have a seperate space. Therefore the flower room is running the same cycles per year and pulling the same yeild, with less plants. I think this is where the disagreement is. You can't discount a seperate veg area and not discount the mothers.

Multiple 2ft tall mom-bushes in 1 gallon containers can be kept alive by a couple of 23w CFLs in a closet with an extraction fan.

You won't be vegging your 4 trees under 23w CFls!

If you're in cali, you could simply go BUY 400 rooted clones. No mom needed.

If you had to veg for 2 months and then flower for two months you would increase your cycles per year by having a separate veg and flower room, but you'd dramatically increase your wattage, as you'd be running same or similar wattage for 6-12 extra hours a day.

And if you did THAT (separate veg room) you'd have to count THAT wattage into your GPW.

Wouldn't you?

 

[Hydrosun]

How about this 100w air pumps, however many watt fans, X watts in AC, X watts in dehui, X watts in slippage (tv, stero, microwave, etc.).

A real measure of productivity accounts for all these things (days WASTED not growing is left out by most but should NOT be).

So lets say you produce 16oz in a given month and your electric bill is 3,000 KWH (16x28.35 = 453.6grms). 453.6/3000 = .1512 grams per kilo watt hour.

If you claim to grow perpetually then the ratio above applies. If you are running one off grows your ratio doesn't really matter because maxing out your yield is ALWAYS the best choice no matter how much wattage it takes (because you get paid back way more than elec. costs).