All about Guano

[xmobotx]

Wow, I had considered bringing up the "3 amazing shits" method
i.e. EWC for seedlings, bunny doo for veg, & guano for flower

certainly a step in the "simpler" direction

but, it seems like we've headed out of guano territories and into compost science

which is OK w/ me

Yes! secondtry, i was already thinking that compost fleece is right what the Dr ordered for my composting issues -my pile tends to dry and therefor cool w/o a lot of maintenance. PLus, especially since my method is to turn the finished stuff on top of the pile, I can see where I would get immediate benefits from fleece

lol, when you first mentioned it, i thort it was a technique maybe and hadn't heard. But, i found it looking into CMC

funny, im kicking and screaming about the math figuring my C/Ns and now i have a whole new dimension considering micro-herd in compost (previously my thinking went, 'if i use my compost i will gain the micro-herd') Now, i want to innoculate the compost too (although i never got sold on "compost starter")

 

[xmobotx]

hmmm non-woven polypro sounds suspiciously like construction-type sheet plastic?

I have a feeling if I start calculating C/N ratios and innoculate w/ a something similar to Luebke's formula I could be a lot closer to CMC than I initially thought?

Of course, being rural, when we mow - it's a lot more than just grass and, i dont know what a lot of those "weeds" are (yes i consider them to be herbs or plants not weeds) so the C/N thing is still a little elusive.

 

[secondtry]

Ha, sorry about that.

Everything you write looks good, but don't use an compost starter, especially if you use green manure. The indigenous microbes will take care of everything if you have correct C:N of 28-33, proper shredding of compost feedstocks and proper mixing of pile feedstocks. I suggest a lower C:N of 28-30 ideally to help the pile reach hyperthermophilic stage, up to about C:N of 35 is OK. Oh yea, C:N is written as 35:1 or 35. Mixing in some microbially active finished compost isn't a bad idea but in many studies I have read a compost starter shows negligible benefit, with the exception of one (questionable?) study which found benefit from of bio-dynamic compost starter; regardless, I suggest you don't use a compost stater, their use has pretty much been debunked unless one is composting in a house, city on pavement, etc.

The compost fleece is not plastic, it's more like tightly woven fleece, or hardware cloth.

Making a pile following C:N is pretty easy once you do the math once or twice. As is finding the moisture content of the feedstocks. The most important issues are C:N, pile dimensions and moisture content. What feedstocks do you use? You said grasses, are they green (fresh) or brown (old)?

If you'd like I can give you the C:N and C ratio but it would be best if you could insure the pile when mixed has about 45-65% moisture content:

If you squeeze and handful of the feedstock and a few drops of water fall from your hand it's about 70% moisture content (or greater) that's too wet. If when squeezing no water drops fall from the hand but palm is moist is about 40-60% moisture content and that's what we want.


Check this out, it's a interactive guide to building a compost pile:

1) First read the following link, it's only a single page worth of must-know compost info for thermophilic compost, written in very basic English and a great place to start, I actually forgot about this until I was looking for an online C:N calculator for you:

"Florida's Online Composting Center: Elements of Composting"
http://www.compostinfo.com/tutorial/ElementOfComposting.htm


2) Then use the "VirtualPile", an interactive online guide to make a pile. It allows you to drag the feedstocks you use from a list and it calculates the C:N and other factors for you. All the feedstocks you listed are present so you should be able to make a virtual pile in 5 minutes
http://www.compostinfo.com/cn/index.htm

^^^ The work by Florida Online Composting Center assumes a moisture content of 40-60% by the squeeze test method of feedstocks and compost mixes.


3) If you use green manure it's important to mix it with either gypsum or zeolite powder; both will greatly reduce the ammonia volatilization which can be as much as 50% of the total ammonia content in just two days. Nutrient reclamation is important with composting to make sure the end compost has good levels of nutrients, especially N and P which often leach out.

HTH

 

[secondtry]

I have a feeling if I start calculating C/N ratios and innoculate w/ a something similar to Luebke's formula I could be a lot closer to CMC than I initially thought?

Yes, with a lot of turning and addition of clay-loam if not zeolite. You should access to clay-loam being rural, no? I also suggest you add humic acid to pile, or to water when watering the pile after it starts to dry out. Adding a mineral power with high Ca is good, it, along with the clay-loam and humic acid will greatly increase the humus fraction of final compost, i.e., the clay-humus crumb of CMC composting. You could make bad ass compost!


Shredding feedstocks is very important.

Of course, being rural, when we mow - it's a lot more than just grass and, i don't know what a lot of those "weeds" are (yes i consider them to be herbs or plants not weeds) so the C/N thing is still a little elusive.

C:N is a guide, not a rule. There are known C:N levels of most feedstocks, so you could use those figures. See the link above to the VirutalPile, it should have everything your looking for. Grass and weeds should have similar C:N if they are similar condition as age and moisture content.

HTH

(P.S. shredding feedstocks is worth buying a shredder, I like the Patriot brand, my neighbor has one)

 

[secondtry]

phospho-composting:

If using green manure and a low C:N of 28-30 I bet you could make good high P compost if adding phosphate rock powder to the pile I described above (i.e., the pile with high humus fraction which increases CEC and therefore holds more P).

If you do this I would add 20-30% micronized phosphate rock powder by dry weight of the pile (as suggested by the UN council, 2004, IIRC); or maybe 10-15% by wet weight of the pile. I would mix in raw sugar granules as you are building the pile, and while mixing. I would follow your gut as to how much raw sugar to apply, but less is often more, I would use less than you initially want to use (I follow that rule all the time for myself). Shredding feedstocks is especially important with high input composting.

HTH and happy composting! Making CMC style and phospho-CMC style compost sounds good to me.

 

[secondtry]

Hey again,

Did you read the paper "art and science of composting"? It's a good read, as is the "composting calculations 101" paper. I have other great papers on the subject but those two are good. CMC is a great method and science but it's not ideal, and Western thermophilic composting is a great method and science but it's not ideal...I try to mix both to make an ideal hybrid system.

HTH

 

[xmobotx]

the virtual pile is pretty cool. funny how you can throw a few things that seem OK together and get whacked ratios. kinda emphasizes that a little science goes a long way with the compost pile

i get 31.5 for the bulk of my pile. but, i've added some local freshwater seaweed and mosses/fungi from around the area (not to mention soil/litter from the area forests)

I think my pile could be hotter but winter here started off w/ a cold spell and the pile is only now starting to regain it's former momentum. Maybe that's not it though:

we have a noxious weed here called knapweed which is reported to excrete some kind of anti-microbial something or other. they say it's use as an herb may be against fungal stuff like athlete's foot or psoriasis - I believe it's presence as one of the weeds inhibits the pile to some degree as well.

oh well, the knapweed will become fairly scarce now that we're cultivating the field.

 

[xmobotx]

unusual "on topic" post

unusual "on topic" post

BTW,

got my guano here linky

 

[Clackamas Coot]

BTW,

got my guano here linky

xmobotx

$3.00 per lb. - wow!!!

Current wholesale price at the local organic farm stores for a 11 kg. pack (23 lbs.) runs $22.00 - $25.00 per bag of the Archipelago Bat Guano (0-7-0) or about $1.20 per lb.

Wow! What a friggin' mark-up,eh?

Amazing.

CC

 

[xmobotx]

yeah, yikes! funny too because you'd have to figure the aged/processed has been aged/processed and has lost a lot of it's initial weight=all in all not the best deal

i look at it like you're payin for the guy to go out and climb around the cave as much as the end product. if you think about it, it's a source where the environmental impact is virtually zero

then, too you know what went into it and how organic it is (other than we can't give the bat an organic diet -lol) because we do our own aging/processing

 

[Syd]

Here are some exemples from the Guano Kalong site.

For farming without Guanokalong-Organic Potting Soil, see the next examples of soilmixes. These will lead you to unpresedented yields for growing indoors and outdoors:

Example 1: indoors soil

60 % potting soil
30 % perlite
10 % wormmanure
+
3 kg seaweedcalcium
3 kg fishmeal or cowdung (at least one year old)
5 kg guanopowder
1 kg sugarcanepowder

Mix these ingrediënts very well and add water during mixing.
Leave it for at least 3 days before putting your plants in.


Growing time:
week 1 t/m 2
Add water.

Flowering time:
week 1 t/m 9 Add water and lower ph-level till ph 6,5 using citric-acid. Big plants like to be fed with guanokalong-extract from week 5 untill end of week 8.


Example 2: indoors soil

40 % black peat
20 % white peat (wide structure)
30 % timber chops of perlite
10 % wormhumus
+
5 kg seaweedcalcium
5 kg fishmeal or cowdung (at least one year old)
8 kg guanopowder
1½ kg sugarcanepowder

Mix these ingrediënts very well and add water during mixing.
Leave it for at least 3 days before putting your plants in.


Growing time:
week 1 t/m 2
Add water.

Flowering time:
week 1 t/m 9 Add water and lower ph-level till ph 6,5 using citric-acid. Big plants like to be fed with guanokalong-extract from week 5 untill end of week 8.


Example 3: outdoors soil

50 % (sand/stone)soil on location (rich of calcium)
30 % potting soil
10 % compost (only out of your own garden)
10 % wormenmanure
+
3 kg seaweedcalcium
5 kg fishmeal or cowdung (at least one year old)
8 kg guanopowder
1½ kg sugarcanepowder

Mix these ingrediënts very well and add water during mixing.
Leave it for at least 3 days before putting your plants in.

When you start early in the season and you like to grow big plants that produce a lot, then spent 1 m² per plant and give her 50 to 250 Liters of this soilmix.


Growing time:

Add water.

Flowering time:
Add water and lower ph-level till ph 6,5 using citric-acid. Extra feeding with guanokalong-extract in september.


Example 4: outdoors soil

50 % (humus/forest or clay)soil on location (acideous or densed)
30 % perlite or timber chops
10 % potting soil (or compost: only out of your own garden)
10 % wormhumus
+
6 kg seaweedcalcium
5 kg fishmeal or cowdung (at least one year old)
8 kg guanopowder
1½ kg sugarcanepowder

Mix these ingrediënts very well and add water during mixing.
Leave it for at least 3 days before putting your plants in.

When you start early in the season and you like to grow big plants which produce a lot, then spent 1 m² per plant and give her 50 to 250 Liters of this soilmix.


Growing time:

Add water.


Flowering time:
Add water and lower ph-level till ph 6,5 using citric-acid. Extra feeding with guanokalong-extract in september.


Example 5: in- and outdoors for all substrates

You can add Guanokalong-Extract every time with wateringperiod. For clones, motherplants and the flowering garden.

Make your own extract:
at first dissolve 1 kilo guano in 10 liters of hot water (max. 60°C). Shake/move this solution multiple times a day (the longer, the better).

For use in a automatic-drainage-system you have to filter out the solid particels. Use the clear extract as a additive to your normal fertilizers.

Clones:
(rooted ones) 5-10 ml filtered extract per liter water.

Growing garden: 10-50 ml filtered extract per liter water.

Flowering garden: 10-100 ml filtered extract per liter water.





Way to grow succesfully:

Stop moving lots of kilo´s of potting soil, just upgrade your garden with Guanokalong-Organic-Products:

- Potting soil, heavily fertilized for flowering
- Soil Upgrade Mix, inclusive seaweedcalcium
- Wormhumus, specially made for the humus!
- Guanokalong powder or pellet 2-15-2
- Guanokalong extract 2-0,5-2, use it for extra feeding

 

[xmobotx]

Hey again,

Did you read the paper "art and science of composting"? It's a good read, as is the "composting calculations 101" paper. I have other great papers on the subject but those two are good. CMC is a great method and science but it's not ideal, and Western thermophilic composting is a great method and science but it's not ideal...I try to mix both to make an ideal hybrid system.

HTH

yeah, i read those 2 and the clay humus one

 

[smoketrichs]

I recently read in another thread that it's now been found that bat guano isn't usable for 6+ mos? that seabird guano breaks down with available nutrients quicker, is this true?

 

[secondtry]

No, not exactly. There are fractions of "bio-available" ions (to plants) in all OM (Organic Matter) and bat guano isn't any different. Like I wrote, according to Florida fertilizer label laws no less than 60% of the total N listed on an organic OM (e.g., bat guano) can be water-insoluble N. Guano's will take a while to break down fully, but there is immediately available ions in both bat guano and seabrid guano; I don't see why the soil food web would break one down faster than the other...

GL

 

[mad librettist]

I recently read in another thread that it's now been found that bat guano isn't usable for 6+ mos? that seabird guano breaks down with available nutrients quicker, is this true?

I believe what was said (or should have been said) is that it is not "completely" available for 6 months. Which is a made up number, but useful. And in your case, misleading.

I don't use the stuff, but I can google. So can you. Guano can be very high in Nitrate (NO3). High enough that it's an ingredient in some old timey gun powders. That explains why people see a difference right away when they use it on hungry plants. If it has an NPK analysis, that first number is all soluble N. It's not miracle grow, but it's still significant.

The 6 month thing - that's for all the organic compounds that need to be mineralized before the plant can use them. I am not sure where 6 months comes from, but it really depends on how active your soil is. My soil has live worms working it. Top fed guano would become part of something awful quick. It's also conceivable that an atom of N or P could go into your soil and stay there longer than 6 months as part of an organism without ever going directly to my plant.

If you can feed with a 6 month mindset instead of 2 weeks, you will be better off. That's what the other poster was really getting at. In other words you keep your soil going plant or no plant. and what you feed in flower today is actually for veg tomorrow. It's about maintaining total biomass, and having the right diversity.

You feed the soil then, not the plant.

 

[secondtry]

Ummm, OK, thanks. Tho I'm not sure why you posted that to me?

 

[mad librettist]

Sorry, I meant to quote the other post. Weird timing - we were both on at the same time. I'll edit when I get home.

 

[secondtry]

OK cool, I was bit confused, no worries tho. Like my new sig? Someone I know suggested I add it...

 

[secondtry]

I am impressed at the number of professional composters posting here. Honestly, I had no idea! Are you all self trained, or did you major in science, and horticulture?

Speaking for myself only I am self-taught, tho I do have a bit of an eduction, and I am continuing onto major in soil science for my BS focusing on soil microbiology and plant/root interactions with a possible minor of botany studies, along with extracurricular peramcutlre and myco-and-bacto-remediation studies. I have tentative plants for a Masters in soil science but that still a few years away.

I know there are some very highly self-educated folks on this forum, and some who have been/currently are getting a higher education. It seems to run the gamut of educations: self to institutional. I love having both types here.

I have an AS degree (2 year pre-med/dent, but that was over 35 years ago. OUCH, but I am putting it to use now. Plan to use this to grow my own fruits and vegetables using a DYI version of NASAs system.

Cool.

I am wondering if composting teas can be applied to aeroponics

If you mean compost teas as in a mix of water and bat guano I would say "maybe" with intense filtering of water.






If you mean ACT than I think MM and/or CTGuy might have something to write, they might have just missed this post. I would have responded sooner but I was waiting to see if either of them were going to chime in first. IMO they are the best source for info on ACT (some call it AACT) in the forums.

Here is my 2cents if you mean ACT:

I would hazard to say no, not without sacrificing the quality of the ACT (Aerated Compost Tea) and the effectiveness of the aeroponic sprayers. There will be particulate which will clog the sprayers (I assume) and there may be bio-film and fungal hyphae too, just to name a few things which may cause you trouble.

Not only that but to apply ACT you would need to either brew it in a proper ACT brewer like from CTGuy or MM, and then filter and apply via. aeroponic; or brew in the rez but that is hard and if not impossible it's at least ineffective. People have done this but I suggest you don't bother. Can you not apply the ACT another way?

P.S. There are two reasons to apply ACT: for biology and for organic chemicals from the microbes (i.e., PGRs, vitamins, organic acids, etc).

If I were you offer useful organic chemicals to your roots I would add "kelpak" to your water, it's the cellular fluid of a S.African seaweed and is VERY high in PGRs (Plant Growth Regulators) and should not clog your sprayers. Also look into the foliage application of these two PGRs: "Triacontanol" (increased yield/growth) and "Brassinolide" (increasing rate of photosynthesis and light tracking, etc, good for high PPFD gardens); also apply fulvic acid and humic acid (i.e., "melted water structure") with foliar spray when lights go off in very high RH (> 90%). You may like to apply this mix of PGRs to roots (NAA is the 'stuff' in superthrive): "RootTonic", it has "Indole Butyric Acid" and "Naphthalene Acetic Acid". Also to the rez you may want to add fulvic acid and humic acid, both are highly suggested. The humic acid could(should) be applied at a rate of 0.009% to volume of water in rez to turn the water into "melted water structure" (MWS). MWS is basically the same structure as fluid in plant cells which increases the root/leaf absorption of ions and organic chemicals like vitamins and acids and also reduces water stresses of plant and offers other benefits. This isn't the right thread for me to tell you about MWS, but if your interested let me know. I use MWS all the time when I water my plants (house and cannabis).

HTH

 

[PetFlora]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I edited my post to mention that I have a 200 mesh inline filter. My res is all liquid. Any guano tea I use is filtered to remove particulates before adding to the res.

I wonder whether the teas made from these soil systems would be stable over a one year period. I am not inclined to make my own compost from which to make a tea. It seems to be quite involved.

If the elements aren't bad enough, the way Monsanto is pushing GM seeds (and punishing those who don't), I don't know how outdoors growers stand a chance.