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Advanced Foliar Techniques Explored

Pod Racer

Member
Hello all, since I'm out of weed and waiting for my next harvest to mature I thought I would open a discussion about advanced foliar feeding techniques and FYI as I've found little but the most basic of information and anyone that knows me knows that just wont do. So, open your hearts and minds to an exploration into the world of foliar feeding. Feel free to contribute any Valuable information or discussions as knowledge is power.

My interests is primarily in exploring if there isn't a faster or more rapid way to foliar feed without causing stress or toxification of the plants. Is it possible to feed every day, every few hours, or at what interval could the leaf tissue be pressed to aid in the nutrient uptake.

As I grow primarily in a high pressure aeroponic setup I find several deficiencies that arise as the accellerated growth puts huge demands on the root systems, though full and well developed, that might be complemented by surface foliar aeration.

So, on that note here are the basics I've found:

The Basics of Foliar Feeding


For foliar fertilization to work effectively, certain guidelines must be followed:

* To be efficient and to avoid plant damage, very dilute solutions of nutrient formulations are suggested. Sometimes as little as one Tsp. to a gallon of filtered water of an active ingredient is all that is required to obtain the desired response. (1) Highly concentrated sprays, especially those bearing inorganic salt-based fertilizers, have the potential to "burn" plant foliage. This is especially true of chloride salts (e.g., potassium chloride).

* Spray-solution pH should remain in the near-neutral range (5.5-8.5). If pH adjustment is required, vinegar can be used to increase acidity, and baking soda to decrease it. (There is controversy over Baking Soda I'll explore later - I believe there is a better bicarbonate - potasium I believe).

* In addition to pH, some other qualities of spray-water should be considered:

o Cleanliness. Small, undissolved particles can quickly clog nozzles—even those well-equipped with strainers can be plugged if enough suspended matter is present.

o Chemical and disease contaminants. Some water sources are contaminated and should not be used at all for foliar feeding. If there is concern specifically about disease organisms, the water can be treated effectively with a small amount of hydrogen peroxide.

o Chlorine. Chlorination of water removes harmful bacteria, but it also can kill beneficial organisms, which may be included in some foliar sprays. Allowing water to stand in an open tank overnight generally renders chlorinated water harmless to beneficial microbial mixtures.

* Best effect is achieved when foliar sprays are finely atomized. This can be managed by increasing sprayer pressure or by using a mist blower. Some advantage can be gained on boom-type sprayers by tilting the nozzles back to a 45° angle to allow the spray to drift onto the plants.

* Spray when wind is minimal. This is especially important with finely atomized sprays because they drift readily.

* Absorption is increased when sprays also reach and coat the undersides of leaves. This is where most of the plant's stomates are located.

* Always delay foliar fertilization until air temperatures drop to 80°F or below. Absorption at higher temperatures is very poor because plant stomates are closed. Some of the most effective foliar feeding is done late in the evening or in the early dawn, when temperatures are right and wind is minimal.

* Absorption is further enhanced when weather conditions are humid and moist. The presence of heavy dew on the leaves facilitates foliar feeding.

* Addition of a surfactant to the solution decreases surface tension on the leaf and may increase absorption.

* Take note of possible chemical interactions among foliar fertilizers. Some materials are incompatible and should not be mixed together. They may create precipitates that tie up the nutrients and clog nozzles. Many product labels warn of incompatibilities. If there is no information, mix relative quantities of the materials and water in a jar and shake it. If there is no precipitate, there should be no problem.

* For convenience and cost savings, foliar fertilization can sometimes be combined with a pesticide application. However, timing conflicts and material incompatibilities can make combining sprays unwise. Be certain to read all product labels and do the jar test if uncertain.


And some more advanced ideas:


Two technologies that appear especially applicable to foliar fertilization deserve to be mentioned. The first is the use of electrostatic sprayers, which impart a charge to the spray particles and cause them to adhere more readily to plants. The second technology, known as Sonic Bloom™, uses sound to increase the leaves' absorption of nutrients.

I am currently experimenting with Folitec and Penatrator by Dutch Master as the DM One fertilizer appears the most advanced in nutrient delivery technology. I will be setting up a test to see if I can manage the same sort of 'respiration' via leaf stoma that I can achieve via aerosol infused root zones.

Anyone with experience in foliar feeding please lend your experience as I am most interested to learn more. :wave:
 
Hey pod racer! How are ya? I ran across your 50 page aerocanna/tag post a few months ago. I had trouble gettin any work done till it was all read. Great info. I am certainly planning a high pressure aero setup for my next location. You are a model of selfless service and insight to this community, whether anyone knows it or not.
I use the penatrator and folitech religiously now. it certainly works , and acts just like the ads say it does. make the plant grow as if it is under a much larger light. I was not using the recommended 60 ml per quart though, that seems exorbant. I have been using 30 ml with great results. I am interested in the new dm GOLD product in the mags. have to give it a run sometime.

glad to meet ya, so to speak!
payn
 

Pod Racer

Member
Welcome aboard M8

Welcome aboard M8

Hey Payn4school, thanks a whole bunch. That was probably one of the nicest comments I've ever got here. Seriously. lol Glad to have you aboard, I hope that thread wasn't too mind numbing. I love to do research when I'm stoned and could spend hours trying to solve problems, especially with these ladies. How often do you feed? I'm currently testing some clones I have just rooted. I burnt them by accident adding too much Power Plant (Botanicare) and they went all Lime green, so I've sprayed them to see if I can revive them and they seem to already be much happier.

I've always been somewhat afraid of Foliar feeding as the few times I had attempted it I ended up with Powdery Mildew all over my plants. Now I use a fan to directly dry everything before I leave my room and use my DH to keep the RH around 50% and well ventilated.

Some more findings:

Fertilization strategies can influence flowering, fruit set, fruit size, the amount of vegetative growth, and other plant characteristics. By carefully choosing the components of a foliar or sidedress fertilizer, the grower can "nudge" a crop toward earlier, heavier fruit set, or discourage fruiting—an advantage when producing greens or a forage crop. This concept is fairly well recognized in the conventional agricultural community. Many citrus growers, for example, are known to foliar feed with fertilizer blends dominated by potassium and nitrate—vegetative-growth-enhancing nutrients—to increase fruit size after the crop is well set. Generally speaking, fertilizer blends dominated by potassium, nitrate nitrogen, calcium, and chlorine tend to promote vegetative growth and fruit size. Blends dominated by ammonium nitrogen, phosphorus, sulfur, and manganese encourage the setting of fruit and seed. So it would appear a foliar Tea of these last four would be beneficial to bud elargement and calyx setup?

We really need an old hippie that makes foliar teas. I bet there is an entire pandora's box that some witchy woman probably has. I know nothing about this subject other than what you've read so far, so its all about learning and experimenting for yours truly.

Are you currently using foliar for veg up to flower or into flower as well?
 

thc43

Active member
Veteran
hi pod racer,

Ive used a few foliar sprays from watered down res water, vit B +silica only, single part grow nute with vit B. but get the best results from dutch master range 60/60/60ml, folia tech grow, maxfx and penetrator then i add .5ml of budlink silica per litre.

spray every second day till dripping the penetrator helps to asorb the solution very fast within seconds. the effect i get is about 60min after spraying top leaves point upwards and new foliage grows faster with a pale green colour but fades back to dark green over the next 24hours. Regular sprays are the go with the odd silica only to create a barrier against mould spores and bugs.

Dutch master has done a bit of research into foliars worth a read, there main site has little info nut youll get better resluts searching for foliar tech grow/flow test results, penetrator there most well know product and FX max flavor weight enhancher. should explain why no other nute can give the results of DM because salt partiacls traditionally have been to big for the cells to absorb into plant..
 
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Pod Racer

Member
More research

More research

Thanks THC43 - I have done a lot of reading on DM's product lines, they sold me on their chelated Ca. in their DM One series like it was made for aero. I don't suppose you have any pictures? I'd like to see some visuals, I myself should get off my ass and take some now. lol I think this is going to be very exciting. Now THC43, do you have issues with mildew or do you have any technique for making sure that isn't a problem? And if I'm understanding you correctly you are feeding at every other day?

Research has shown that foliar nutrients are more efficiently utilized than are soil-applied nutrients (about six times as efficiently, depending upon soil type). Nutrients for foliar application have to be in a special form to be absorbed and utilized by the plant. Some of those forms are as follows:

NutrientAbsorbed & Utilized As:
Nitrogen..................................NO3
Phosphate..................................P4
Potassium..................................K+
Zinc..........................Zinc ion (Zn++)
Boron.........................Borate ion (Bo)
Calcium....................Calcium ion (Ca++)
Magnesium................Magnesium ion (Mg++)
Manganese................Manganese ion (Mn++)
Sulfur......................Sulfate ion (SO4)
Copper......................Cupric ion (Cu++)
Iron.......................Ferrous ion (Fe++)

In general it can be said that foliar feeding can be considered as a triggering mechanism that stimulates the plant-growth cycle. The two main ingredients in any formulation are zinc and phosphate. The zinc acts as a stimulator of the enzymatic system and the phosphate supplies the needed energy to bring about the changes. Other elements can be added to the combination.

How Foliar Feeding Of Plants Really Works

There are many different thoughts and ideas as to just how foliar feeding works, especially under varying conditions of growth. To date, however, no one idea has proven acceptable under all conditions.

The leaf is considered the primary source of such absorption; and knowing the structure of a leaf, we can proceed with various thoughts. Some people propose entry through the stomata. Not only are these closed at certain times of the day but the orifice is far too small for liquid entry. However, we might consider the guard cells as they are flexible and have much less waxiness.

Some leaves have very limited numbers of stomata on the upper surface of the leaf. Yet all plants seem to absorb the nutrients at a rapid rate. The lower surface of a dichotamous leaf has many loosely-attached cells that could be absorptive. But it is generally thought that most materials are applied to the upper surface of the leaves and that entry must be made through that area.

This, in turn, makes us consider the surface of the leaves and their usually waxy surface. This waxy covering is made up of platelets of wax intermingled with pectanaceous material which is penetrable by moisture. The surface of a leaf will then allow water penetration. This has been further demonstrated by streams of water applied to the surface of the leaf which will then leach out nutrients from these same leaves, thus showing that water can penetrate the leaf surface and remove nutrients previously inside the leaf.

Since the development of more powerful microscopes, it has been shown that the colloidal materials in one cell are connected with colloidal materials of other surrounding cells thorough strands known as plasmadesmata. Thus a pathway exists for the movement of nutrients right from the surface to the various living tissues within the plant. Attempts have been made to check the speed of such movement and it has been found to be approximately a foot an hour. Most applied nutrients are absorbed into the plant in a day's time. Such applied nutrients move rapidly to points of rapid cell division, such as the growing points of stems and roots, thus having an immediate effect on growth and development.

Soil-applied fertilizers require a considerable time before they will show an effect on plant growth, perhaps as long as a week or two. Foliar-applied materials have shown effects in as little as 24 hours after application. This may be due to the concentration of materials applied, the close proximity to active growing areas, or the rapid movement of the nutrients within the plant.

Tests conducted in Germany have found that an application of phosphate to the surface of a leaf was detected within the plant in as little as five seconds from the time it was applied. This shows how quickly materials can move through the leaf surface. The leaf surface is acidic and the nutrients applied in a solution of approximately pH 4.0 have the opportunity of moving directly into the leaf and being immediately available. Leaf analysis can give an indication of nutrient needs, but even if the tests show a sufficiency of the major elements, the foliar feeding will still bring about a change.

Nutrients indicated to be tied up in the soil due to alkalinity or unavailability can be fed through the leaves with full effect. This is to say that the nutrients not available from the soil can be made readily available through foliar application when the pH of the water has been adjusted and the proper form of the element is applied. In applying foliar nutrients, droplet size gets involved. Many researchers use a five-gallon sprayer for application, the droplets of which roll right off the leaf onto the ground. Researchers should use a commercial application (air) on a field and lay out the plots on this treated field. Aerial application allows treatment of both the upper and the lower surfaces of the leaf.

- from The Essence of Aquaponics
 
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G

Guest

Hello Pod Racer..... and everyone.

Hello Pod Racer..... and everyone.

Excellent thread so far. I am at a severe lack of knowledge on this subject so will mostly sit back and listen. Could someone pass the popcorn? :lurk:
Well thank you.

Peace
 

Pod Racer

Member
Hey hop in the boat, its like the first day of class for me too. lol There is nothing like just jumping into the middle of something and ironing it all out. I'm not going to be happy until I invent a machine you can put a seed into and watch it grow to a mature plant right before your eyes. Like jiffyPot. :yes:
 

thc43

Active member
Veteran
dont try to reinvent the wheel with your growing machine its all been done for you.


I just sprayed my grow of sensi skunk with the dm foliar spray alot of growth since yesterday maby 5cm gain in height plants have been tipped and branches removed many times in the last 10days but there still stretching and fast outgrowing the space there in.

Pics
#1 8x clones day1 of flower
#2 day 10 flower
rest of the pics are at harvest
last pic current grow sensi skunk clones day 10 flower/ 12 days since planted under hps :yoinks:

My last sog grow first with DM foliar was by far the fastest veg ive seen in my room with these strains and a good yield of 1.1gpw from 90cm x 1m room with 600wt..

early flower (last grow)


day10


late flower (last)


Harvest



sensi skunk fem phenos


10days old tipped and still stretching now removing whole branches and supper cropping wouldnt want to see someone actually veg this strain :bat:



Of 9 fem phenos 5 remain as good fems all others where vaired levels of hermi+ hermi bagseed front left
 
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G

Guest

Excellent information........

Excellent information........

Pod Racer--great research.... am adding it to my special archive.

thc43--those are stupendous pics and growth rates. One thing I don't understand is why did you take a pic of all those baseball bats in that one picture :chin: . This is a MJ thread.............Just joking. Damn, those are some nice buds.... density looks superb.... don't see any popcorn. The guy at the grow store swears by Dutch Master and they seem to really be into the foliar thing. His eyes are always bloodshot and look Chinese so he must be doing something right. I am going to do some research on Dutch Master. I have been using a few select Advanced Nutrient products like Overdrive with excellent results but am very interested in the foliar feeding aspect.

Have any of you heard that Nitrogen left on the surface of the leaves when combusted is carcinogenic? Don't remember where I heard it but thought it was important to mention.

So far a great thread and very constructive and informative.

Peace
 

Pod Racer

Member
Totally

Totally

DM is the leader for sure; they specifically designed their entire line for aeroponic cannabis I'm sure. :sasmokin:

They also state not to foliar feed during the end of flowering, which I suppose would eliminate the N on the leaves and that the leaves should be sprayed clean at some point I believe.

THC - Those are some impressive pictures for sure. Definitely got me on the go to use my Folitec and Penetrator. I currently have been spraying my clones and then holding a fan over them until the surface area dries completely (in hopes of avoiding mildew or fungus) is this a good idea or bad I wonder? :chin: Does the plant need time to absorb the liquid (as in high humidity) or does it do it faster with accelerated drying. As the gas exchange would be the same I think.

This was my thought? THC maybe you can lend some advice?

Is it possible to spray the leaves and dry them multiple times a day during veg under floros? Without the fear of burning (As I am using 1/3 strength mix) or damage to the leaves?

Thinking I am using 1/3 strength can I spray 3 times a day and achieve better absorption or is once all that is available. According to the research you should be able (*depending on the mix) to feed every hour if wanted as long as the leaves didn't remain wet.

I've also been reading that it is better to Not drench the leaves but to only pass a super atomized mist of the foliar fertilizer under the branches and allow them to suck the nutrients up like they would with Co2 and N from the air.

Also, there was an interesting article I read about using Seltzer water as your mixing water that would add Co2 to the mix when feeding adding even greater penetration and carbon loading. Thoughts?
 

Dan42nepa

Member
I mix a teaspoon of liquid kelp in a gallon of water and foilar feed maybe 3-4 times during a grow. Also, i read once that aspirin is good. I admit I tried it once and noticed a growth spurt but was afraid to use it again because i read it can cause hermis..
 

emmy75

Member
hey dan
ive never tried aspirin but i have foliar fed with vitamin c a couple of times. u def wont have any worries with half a tablet of vit c.

im trying to get myself in the habit of foliar feeding everyday or at least 5 of out 7. the low humidity in socal and warmth of the days makes it an important aspect of growing imo. prob for me is that im usually in a rush in the morn and also get home after evening. but i guess its better to do it when i can than not at all.
 
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Pornstar

Member
Sonic Bloom

Sonic Bloom

*I was just about to post this in my thread but ill put it here also
I have been using sonic bloom for about a year now. After reading about it in the cannabible i decided to test it out and see how well it works. The theory behind it is that a chirping sound that somewhat mimicks how birds sound in the morning will trigger the stomatas to open (awaiting the dew) then you spray on the "super special seaweed extract" (2.0 - .07 - .70). The chirping sound is accompanied by some inspiring classical songs. I play the music twice a day on an cd clock. The first one is in the morning when it should be cooler. The second one is at dusk and I drop my temp a few degrees and spray with sonic bloom on tues. and fri. any other day I spray with plain water. I stop spraying once the pistils start to show, but the music is loud enough at my flowering chamber that i can hear it and will play when the lights turn on and off.
If i start to get some nute burn I wiill miss a scheduled spray but other than that I have barely any problems in the vegitative stage only minor ph problems before i got my ph pen. my f/m ratio is in the 80-90% range on the 15 seeds I have used it on. For clones when i use a mild solution occompanied with the music they will be atleast 90% survival rate without is more like 60-80% using rockwool. What it noticeably does for me is keep me on a good watering schedule and i end up whistling the tunes to my plants which is just blowing co2 all over them. Alone it is not going to give you magic monster colas as some may claim but for me a helpful product and another way to help me recreate nature. If you want it on a budget i would recommend just a nice organic spray before lights on when its cool occompanied by some bird song cds. For more info a link to another thread on sonic bloom this kid did a side by side test throughout flower http://www.advancednutrientsmedical.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=2128&highlight=sonic+bloom
Besides sonic bloom my girls like to listen to the grow report every Saturday and lots of Bob Marley.


SourD ibl next to radio w/ extra leaf tip
 

Pod Racer

Member
Hey all, thanks for stopping in. :wave:

Emmy - It is important to only spray during the coolest point of the day, you could spray in the dark if you wanted just as long as you don't run the risk of mildew.

At least according to the theory of Stoma uptake. Which is the pore that exchanges gases for the plant. In the height of the day or under hot lamps the stomata close to prevent moisture lost, so accordingly the feeding would be wasted. This is why I'm thinking floros while vegging as you can lay those right ontop of your plants with little issue.

As for aspirin:The active ingredient in aspirin, acetyl salicylic acid, is a synthetic derivative of a compound, salicin, which occurs naturally in plants, notably the willow tree. Extracts of willow were traditionally used in folk medicine and as early as 400 BC the Greek physician Hippocrates recommended a brew made from willow leaves to treat labour pains. Later in 1763 an English clergyman, Reverend Edward Stone carried out the first proper scientific study of the herbal medicine when he described the benefits he observed after giving ground up willow bark to 50 parishioners suffering from rheumatic fever.

I found the info. The reseearcher did say to use 81 mg tabs. Here it is.

MARTHA MCBURNEY, the master gardener in charge of the demonstration vegetable garden at the University of Rhode Island, had a bee in her bonnet. After reading up on the 'Systematic Acquired Resistance' (SAR) in plants, which helps boost their immune system, she became convinced that aspirin would render their immune system even stronger and keep them healthier. Although richly laughed at, last summer she tested 'aspirin water' on a variety of plan

How much, and how often?

The dosage Martha arrived at after numerous experiments was 1.5 aspirin (81 gr. strength) to two gallons of water. Important note: The tablets should be the uncoated type. She also added two tablespoons of yucca extract to help the aspirin water stick better to the leaves. (The yucca extract can be substituted with a mild liquid soap).

SPRAYING

Finally, Martha divised a schedule of spraying once every three weeks, no matter the type of plant. The summer when Martha first started testing aspirin water was not the best, weather-wise. It was cool, rainy and damp. Yet, by the end of the season, the plants growing in the raised beds on which the aspirin water had been used looked like they were on steroids! They were huge and green and insects-free. Some disease seemed even to have reversed themselves on cucumbers affected by a virus.

ASPIRIN IMPROVES SEED GERMINATION

Martha also sprayed the aspirin water on the seeds directly sowed in the ground. The result was close to 100 per cent seed germination, compared to spotty germination in the other trial beds.

Martha's experience caused scientists at the University of Arizona (along with the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA)), to start studying how salicylic acid (main component in aspirin) induces plants into releasing their natural defences against harmful fungi, bacteria and viruses. According to an article by Dean Fosdick of the Associated Press, "They envision it as a commercially viable alternative to synthetic pesticides in a natural way to extend the life of susceptible yet popular crops."

One question, though: Is this an organic method? Well, not really. Aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) is 'derived' from the white willow tree, Salix alba. Studies are now being conducted on plants using pure willow extracts to compare the effects to aspirin.

PS I forgot this...damn it! :wallbash: I have discovered recently that there is a chemical in Willow trees that promotes rapid rooting. You can make a tea from any willow bark or branches and use it as a rooting dip that is actually the fastest found on the planet. I just remembered this. I wonder if that same compound could be incorporated into a growth tonic. I suppose we should define what our objectives are with Foliar feeding first, he? :bat:

I'll get back to those questions in a few, first let look at experiment number one for ol' PR.

These are a set of clones that I put into a bubbler about a week or so ago. Most have started to root, and I accidentally forgot to shake my fertilizer and bumped the PPMs to 1180 for about 12 hours before I caught it. So I expect them to die. No doubt. But as a last ditch effort I'm trying to save them by using Folitec/Penetrator to revive them as mentioned above. Here are the peliminary shots of the poor bitches. I know, don't tell me they look sad I know it. I've kicked myself for that. :asskick:



I can't say as I see anything to major yet other than they shed all their fan leaves. Might just be too late, but I've given them two hits of mix 1/3 strength and air dried them with a little fan.


 
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Dan42nepa

Member
hey emmy... how is that Master gardener soil working out? This is completely off topic but today I inserted an airstone enclosed in a small bag of perlite and inserted it down into my soil in an experiment to get more oxigen to the roots. I am using a healthy clone and have it next to a "normal" plant of the same age. That is interesting about the crickets. I have no doubt music is beneficial. There is a study on here somewhere that also mentions music's affect on water molecules. Unfortunately alot of this stuff is subjective. Not sure any of this really helps but if i get good results from whatever reason, i tend to do it again partly because i am supersticious.
 

Pod Racer

Member
Whew I think both I and my plants need an aspirin. Doh!

Whew I think both I and my plants need an aspirin. Doh!

I have heard of the Bird song reference before and had read about Sonic Boom. It makes sense as the plants are in symbiotic relations with the birds and the vibration of their singing in the morning or evening could very easily cause a chemical hormonal reaction.

As part of some earlier work I did a year ago, shhheeezzz..., I found some compounds that would FORCE the stomata to stay OPEN sort of like a dilator and sort of force feeds the plant, I'll go hunt that up.

Excellent contributions though to everyone, another fantastic thread is launched! :woohoo:


PS its all coming back to me now..lol

This is from my nutrient profiling thread, but makes sense to put it here as well.

Leaves

The exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide in the leaf (as well as the loss of water vapor in transpiration) occurs through pores called stomata (singular = stoma).

Normally stomata open when the light strikes the leaf in the morning and close during the night.
The immediate cause is a change in the turgor of the guard cells. The inner wall of each guard cell is thick and elastic. When turgor develops within the two guard cells flanking each stoma, the thin outer walls bulge out and force the inner walls into a crescent shape. This opens the stoma. When the guard cells lose turgor, the elastic inner walls regain their original shape and the stoma closes.

Time Osmotic Pressure, lb/in2
7 A.M. 212
11 A.M. 456
5 P.M. 272
12 midnight 191


The table shows the osmotic pressure measured at different times of day in typical guard cells. The osmotic pressure within the other cells of the lower epidermis remained constant at 150 lb/in2. When the osmotic pressure of the guard cells became greater than that of the surrounding cells, the stomata opened. In the evening, when the osmotic pressure of the guard cells dropped to nearly that of the surrounding cells, the stomata closed.

Opening stomata

The increase in osmotic pressure in the guard cells is caused by an uptake of potassium ions (K+). The concentration of K+ in open guard cells far exceeds that in the surrounding cells. This is how it accumulates:
Blue light is absorbed by phototropin which activates
a proton pump (an H+-ATPase) in the plasma membrane of the guard cell.
ATP, generated by the light reactions of photosynthesis, drives the pump.
As protons (H+) are pumped out of the cell, its interior becomes increasingly negative.
This attracts additional potassium ions into the cell, raising its osmotic pressure.
Closing stomata

Although open stomata are essential for photosynthesis, they also expose the plant to the risk of losing water through transpiration. Some 90% of the water taken up by a plant is lost in transpiration.

Abscisic acid (ABA) is the hormone that triggers closing of the stomata when soil water is insufficient to keep up with transpiration (which often occurs around mid-day).

The mechanism:
ABA binds to receptors at the surface of the plasma membrane of the guard cells.
The receptors activate several interconecting pathways which converge to produce a rise in pH in the cytosol transfer of Ca2+ from the vacuole to the cytosol. The increased Ca2+ in the cytosol blocks the uptake of K+ into the guard cell while the increased pH stimulates the loss of Cl- and organic ions (e.g., malate2-) from the cell.
The loss of these solutes in the cytosol reduces the osmotic pressure of the cell and thus turgor. The stomata close.

Density of stomata


The density of stomata on a leaf varies with such factors as:
the temperature, humidity, and light intensity around the plant;
and also, as it turns out, the concentration of carbon dioxide in the air around the leaves. The relationship is inverse; that is, as CO2 goes up, the number of stomata goes down, and vice versa. Some evidence:
Plants grown in an artificial atmosphere with a high level of CO2 have fewer stomata than normal.
Herbarium specimens reveal that the number of stomata in a given species has been declining over the last 200 years — the time of the industrial revolution and rising levels of CO2 in the atmosphere [View].
These data can be quantified by determining the stomatal index: the ratio of the number of stomata in a given area divided by the total number of stomata and other epidermal cells in that same area.

How does the plant determine how many stomata to produce?

It turns out that the mature leaves on the plant detect the conditions around them and send a signal (its nature still unknown) that adjusts the number of stomata that will form on the developing leaves.

Two experiments (reported by Lake et al., in Nature, 411:154, 10 May 2001):

When the mature leaves of the plant (Arabidopsis) are encased in glass tubes filled with high levels (720 ppm) of CO2, the developing leaves have fewer stomata than normal even though they are growing in normal air (360 ppm).
Conversely, when the mature leaves are given normal air (360 ppm CO2) while the shoot is exposed to high CO2 (720 ppm), the new leaves develop with the normal stomatal index.

Roots and Stems


Woody stems and mature roots are sheathed in layers of dead cork cells impregnated with suberin — a waxy, waterproof (and airproof) substance. So cork is as impervious to oxygen and carbon dioxide as it is to water.

However, the cork of both mature roots and woody stems is perforated by nonsuberized pores called lenticels. These enable oxygen to reach the intercellular spaces of the interior tissues and carbon dioxide to be released to the atmosphere.

In many annual plants, the stems are green and almost as important for photosynthesis as the leaves. These stems use stomata rather than lenticels for gas exchange.

Hormones

GIBBERELLIC ACID (GA3)


Probably the best known of the plant hormones. It's produced by the plants tips and is responsible for the plant growth. Most use it in two ways:

1) If they want to germinate seeds, they soak the seeds first in a solution of GA3 (200ppm) for 24 hours. Compared to unsoaked seeds, the soaked seeds germinate faster, a better percentage of germinations and they grow like crazy.

2) After the clones have rooted and are established (usually 10 days), give them a foliar spray of 30ppm GA3. This makes them literally "take off". You can almost see them actually growing.

The problem with GA3, is that most growth is in the form of "stretching" which isn't always diserable, so except for seeds and clones, most don't use GA3 ever again in the plants cycle.

GA3 has some other uses as well. You can intiate male fowers on a female plant but using high doses every day for several days, you can also induce flowers earlier and yield bigger flowers but I haven't tried that yet.

BRASSINOLIDE


This is one of the main hormones used. Concentration use is approximately 0.1ppm as a foliar spray about every three weeks with a final spray just as you change the lights for flowering. It will increase a plants resistance to stress (cold, drought, too high a salt content), it helps the plant locate light, it strengthens a plants resistance to disease. It will also stimulate a plant to grow it's overall root mass. The overall effect is that the plant will be much healthier, stronger and thus the yield will be better. It is estimated that the effect is about a 50% better yield than the untreated plants.

6-BENZYLAMINOPURINE

Another favourite, depending on the concentration used, the effects are thicker and stronger stems, healthier and larger leaves (more surface area to capture light) at 300 ppm. If you find that youwould like a plant to have more branches, you give it a foliar spray of 2000ppm. This is called hormonal pruning and the advantage is that you don't need to pinch of the plants growing tip (thus decreasing the gibberrelins), the plant stays healthy and doesn't stop growing to repair the tip.

Another big bonus. If you spray MJ with 300ppm at the end of the 4th week of flowring there is a dramatic increase in bud growth. Combined with the earlier spraying of Brassinlide that most do at the start of flowering, the end result is outstanding in terms of quality and yield.

MEPIQUAT CHLORIDE


This is actually a growth inhibitor. It is sold in Hydro stores in pre-made solutions under various brand names. The idea is that it will stop the plant growth when it's time to start flowering. Not only does this control the final height (useful if you have a low ceiling problem), but also the plant will start to allocate it's growth resources into bud growth sooner. I resisted using this product because I don't have a height problem.The effect you see is that bud size that were usually about 5 weeks old are now bud size at 3 weeks. This gives you larger early buds and as you know, you can only build from there. Most hit the plants with the Benzylaminopurine and the bud growth takes off, supposedly. This hormone is relatively new to me concentration known to use is about 10ppm.
 
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Pod Racer

Member
The Master Pod Racer Plan

The Master Pod Racer Plan

My ultimate goal I think here is to design a growing pod that supplies aerosol nutrients to the root system as well as a separate fogger line to administer aerosol foliar feeding at similar intervals just like in Aeroponics.

Whereas, in soil growing you only water every couple days ...foliar feed every couple days. In aero, we water every 4 minutes...so it would reason that a miniscule amount of vaporized foliar fertilizer or growth enhancing compounds could be administered in the same fashion. Thereby accelerating the growth and development even faster. Which at the rates of True aeroponics would be insane! :yoinks:

My current design is a dual row of plants under floros, where I would like to place a spray bar right down the middle so I only have to flip a switch or can set a timer to have my rig self automate and infuse the air with vapor avoiding all the manual aspect of foliar feeding.

The nozzles I currently use for Aeroponics deliver a 50 micron droplet that is ideal for direct absorption by the leaves and could not cause (hopefully) any lasting wet or damp areas.

So I suppose my first goal: Create a mega mix of non-toxic, organic, non-burning, hormone producing, health and immunization enhancing tea that can be delivered in aeroponic fashion to boost absorption and counteract the deficiencies that occur in late flower due to the accelerated growth found in aero.

Wow, quite a challenge. Yikes! :yoinks: Math is hard. :bat:
 
I am certainly following you pod racer. How would you rig the spray to come on a few minutes before the lights, or afterward for that matter? And how long until you can hit the plants with light again? Just until the top sides of the leaves are dry I imagine. If one were to set up a timer to spray, it would have to stay perfectly insinc with the timer for the lights. Well duh. anyways, Would what would be the optimum time to spray, when and for how long? It would be nice if it could be set to mist say 5 minutes before sunrise and then perhaps 5 after sunset. That would give appoximately 10 minutes for the plants to dry/absorb be for the hids reach full power.

pod racer, could you post a link to the misters you have found to optimal. Im gonna start building my new system I think. I will certainly try and incorporate an external spray bar as well. that would be amazing to see in action, but I believe the idea of spraying upwards may have to be altered due the the lights above the canopy. Even if they werent on, the mist would certainly accumulate on the bulbs/ lens. Perhaps a horizonal spray would be sufficient...

dont hog the popcorn shroom dr
payn
 
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Pod Racer

Member
Sure thing buddy.

You can find absolutely everything you need here:

Dripworkusa




These fit into a 1/2" pvc Tee that has a threaded hole for them, they come with a filter inside and you must use a 200 mesh filter on your line too them, but they emit a flat conical shape that if aimed directly up would actually scatter to the sides rather than up.
However you are correct with HID issues if they are not hooded. I'm using an array of Floros instead of HID for this rig as it will be a long tunnel of marching pairs (about 12 pairs) with 3 sets of 3 floro shop lights over a scrog. The belly of the beast is TAG so the same sort of line can be run right down the middle and should fill the canopy by not drift up too much once the scrog is full.

My plan, if successful, is to have ventilation running under the scrog down the tunnel up and out the ceiling with the same through the buds once they are formed. The entire thing would be like a galley kitchen with flow going in one direction...out the door. So there will never be standing air anywhere and a constant supply of fresh air and on occation Co2 as my fireplace is gas. :sasmokin:

Timing issues are simple, either programed or inline with your HID. You are right that it would take about 15 minutes for your HID to power up and if you are using an aerosol rather than heavy spray the leaves will be dry in 5 minutes.

Using Floros I hope to be able to feed at will as opposed to under certain conditions as the floros wont be near as hot as the HID and I can back them off for spraying causing a slight 'dark' period like rain. Possibly even triggering them more to open their stomata?

This too, depending on how insane you'd like to get could be automated, which is why I was asking if it is possible to do multiple feedings? Every so often, maybe every 4 hours, during veg only a timer could raise the array fog the canopy, wait 15 mintues and return the array of lights back to 6" from the canopy top to continue massive vegging. :woohoo:

This would give 3 - 4 foliar feedings a day, allowing 3 hours to absorb and translocate elements before another dose of low intensity fertilizer and growth enhancing compounds could be applied. I'm talking like micro dosing like a mist of about 20 sec. only. Just enough to aerosol the air space under the canopy and let it drift up into the canopy being absorbed almost immediately the way the roothairs do in an aerochamber. The plant would be practically breathing on steroids. She'll either die or create a monster. :yoinks: Let's find out, shall we? (insert mad scientist laugh here)

If you look into my link below about begining aeroponics you'll find all the info on dia. pumps, which is what I use. They are used for insect spraying and all sorts of misting and work better, stronger, and cheaper in the long run than using submersibles.

Like with the true pursuit of aeroponics the idea would be to grow with the minimal amount of everything. Light, water, fertilizers, energy. As it is aero only takes about 1/4th the amount of DWC in application and the pump running only 30 sec. every 5 minutes adds up to little. The foliar extract could be kept in a res. with bubbler, or not, and used as needed.
Just the same as the root system.

I honestly think this is a great idea for NFT and tube technology as well, as it would aid in the loss of aerospace in the tubes by providing aero uptake via the leaves and stems. Less demands for the roots, greater demand on the leaves, which inturn the leaves should grow larger producing more sugars and thereby increasing the bud set and bud development of the plant.

In theory. :bat:
 
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