Adding CO2 to Optimum Room Ennvironment

[budbasket]

I keep reading people mention that higher temps are needed to take advantage of CO2 and would love to see the sources for that information as I've not found any scientific literature saying that.

Its a matter of physics and chemistry....think of a growing plant as a wooden barrel made of up 5 slits. Co2 concentration, temperature, nutrients, water availability and light. If all the slits are at a maximum height, then the grower is achieving the ultimate growth rate possible. If even one slit is short, liquid spills out, or in our case the plant isn't reaching its greatest growth potential. In nature this is the case ,the current atmospheric concentrations are around 400ppm Co2. By increasing the Co2 up to say 3 times normal atmospheric conditions, the grower will have to also add height to all the other slits, or increase temp, nutrients, light etc.

This isn't saying that if someone is running at 85F already, then adds Co2, then increases the temp, that an increase in weight will occur. The plant might get heat stressed. You have to look at the optimal temperature for said plant. If your already running at the top range of optimal temps then you need to increase the other slits so to speak to maximize yield. Entire point of Co2 enrichment. All I am saying is that if you compare a room running at 75 degrees with 1200ppm Co2 and a room running at 85 with 1200ppm, the 2nd room will experience higher rates of photosynthesis thus faster/more growth.

Since you said you couldn't find any scientific sources I googled "c02 enrichment in greenhouses", went to scholarly articles, and found hundreds.....here's a few......

http://www.co2science.org/education/book/2011/55BenefitsofCO2Pamphlet.pdf

http://www.quickgrow.com/gardening_articles/co2_enrichment.html

http://www.springerlink.com/content/np26105888r8m5p7/

 

[Raw_Dog]

Well, let me explain why I refuse to raise my temps to 80plus degrees. Since the A/Cs were installed in our rooms, we have been producing the finest top notch fruit I have seen since i began. I can not imagine raising the temps to a land that isn't comfortable for me. I don't like 85* so don't expect me to put them in a room with 85* temps. If 75* is acceptable then thats where we will be but as for now, I'll settle with what I have. I just wanted to know if adding CO2 to my environment would be beneficial, beneficial to anything more than I have now. I don't need CO2, I just want to spoil my plants. is this beneficial?

 

[budbasket]

why fix whats not broken is the only reply i have to that. You asked about increasing temp when increasing c02 I told you exactly what any plant physiologist, greenhouse manager, or extension agent would say. Spoiling implies waste imo, so why waste anything if your already doing ok.

 

[Raw_Dog]

why fix whats not broken is the only reply i have to that. You asked about increasing temp when increasing c02 I told you exactly what any plant physiologist, greenhouse manager, or extension agent would say. Spoiling implies waste imo, so why waste anything if your already doing ok.

Thanks BudBasket, I really do appreciate the response. I think everyone went on a tantrum on whats was best for CO2, when that wasn't the question. Everyone missed the goal of my question. I wasn't in it to fix, I was in it to enhance. I guess everyone is saying raise my temps and add CO2, I got that. I know growers who grow in that environment, not knowing if they should feed or just water... Knowing when its too hot or just right. Damn, its really hot in here, Ill come back when the lights go out... NO, I like my frost covered plants that looks like diamonds on stems, and the light green disappears on the finished dry fruit. Looks like jewel buds!!! Im not giving that up for super-compact-dense not really attractive fruit.

WILL ADDING CO2 TO AN OPTIMUM ROOM ENVIRONMENT help? Thats the question, does anyone have temps of about 70-75* and have CO2 levels of 1000ppms consistently while the lights are on. Thats my question. Please answer that, and what are the results?

Enhancing Excellence.

 

[DrFever]

increased temp. speeds up reactions of photosynthetic enzymes within the plant. When you increase the Co2 up to 1200ppm, outside normal atmospheric conditions around 400ppm, the plants able to achieve a higher grow rate. That's why growers see a benefit when adding C02 to also increase the temp. People gotta remember that plants don't grow from nutrients, they grow from the carbon captured out of the atmosphere. Increased carbon, increased biomass. Really simplified answer than the actual processes of what happens in the plant.

\

Exactly increased temps opens stomata that is the reason for running hotter temps for longer periods to allow more c02 uptake
as for growers thinking normal temps 65 - 72 IMO you can get faster growth if you had it hotter with proper ventilation and air movement in room running temps 82 - 88 lights on and 72 off believe it or not is what growers should try for ,
Anyone ever walk into a green house ???? you can hardly breath its so humid and hot but most importantly plants are incredible
growth rates are crazy
here some pics of start of day 7 veg temps 88 humidity 70 - 80 and what baby looked like 6 days ago crazy growth
Day 8 C02 will be implemented

 

[Raw_Dog]

Maybe I should take pictures... then ask the question.

As for Vegging, my rooms are warm, probably 80* temps. Im adding CO2 to those rooms for increased growth rates, thanks...

 

[farmari]

I keep reading people mention that higher temps are needed to take advantage of CO2 and would love to see the sources for that information as I've not found any scientific literature saying that.

Its a matter of physics and chemistry....think of a growing plant as a wooden barrel made of up 5 slits. Co2 concentration, temperature, nutrients, water availability and light. If all the slits are at a maximum height, then the grower is achieving the ultimate growth rate possible. If even one slit is short, liquid spills out, or in our case the plant isn't reaching its greatest growth potential. In nature this is the case ,the current atmospheric concentrations are around 400ppm Co2. By increasing the Co2 up to say 3 times normal atmospheric conditions, the grower will have to also add height to all the other slits, or increase temp, nutrients, light etc.

This isn't saying that if someone is running at 85F already, then adds Co2, then increases the temp, that an increase in weight will occur. The plant might get heat stressed. You have to look at the optimal temperature for said plant. If your already running at the top range of optimal temps then you need to increase the other slits so to speak to maximize yield. Entire point of Co2 enrichment. All I am saying is that if you compare a room running at 75 degrees with 1200ppm Co2 and a room running at 85 with 1200ppm, the 2nd room will experience higher rates of photosynthesis thus faster/more growth.

Since you said you couldn't find any scientific sources I googled "c02 enrichment in greenhouses", went to scholarly articles, and found hundreds.....here's a few......

http://www.co2science.org/education/book/2011/55BenefitsofCO2Pamphlet.pdf

http://www.quickgrow.com/gardening_articles/co2_enrichment.html

http://www.springerlink.com/content/np26105888r8m5p7/

I'm sure the info is out there but I'm just saying that I haven't found it. The quickgrow article says nothing, and the co2science article shows huge photosynthesis differences at 75F, contrary to the idea that the temps need to be high to get a photosynthesis boost with CO2. Though that graph shows no difference in photosynthesis between 60F and 85F at 325ppm, which isn't true for cannabis, so maybe that data should be disregarded anyway.

 

[budbasket]

I'm not going to get into a "back up figures" argument after I told you step for step how to actually find a scholarly article since you were having trouble.

If you disagree with anything I've said, call up your local university and ask to talk to a plant physiologist or the extension agent. Talk to a local greenhouse grower. Ask someone professional that does this on a large scale everyday.

 

[DrFever]

I'm sure the info is out there but I'm just saying that I haven't found it. The quickgrow article says nothing, and the co2science article shows huge photosynthesis differences at 75F, contrary to the idea that the temps need to be high to get a photosynthesis boost with CO2. Though that graph shows no difference in photosynthesis between 60F and 85F at 325ppm, which isn't true for cannabis, so maybe that data should be disregarded anyway.

Photosynthesis consists of chemical reactions. Chemical reactions proceed at a higher rate at higher temperatures. The rule of thumb is that there is a doubling of the reaction rate for every 10°F rise in temperature. Plants grow faster at a higher temperature providing they have adequate levels of CO2, water, sunlight and plant nutrients. The C4 plants have a great response rate for a higher temperature than does the C3 plants.

A higher temperature without adequate level of the necessary ingredients for growth might produce no response or even damage. above, states that under most circumstances the availability of CO2 is the factor which limits growth. Thus with a higher level of CO2 in the air plants can grow faster with a higher temperature.

Plants transpire water vapor to keep an even temperature. There are tiny holes on the underside of plant leaves, called somata, which are the openings through which the plant absorbs CO2. With higher level of CO2 concentration in the air the somata do not have to be open as wide. The narrower opening means that less water is transpired and thus less water is required by the plants. In other words, higher levels of CO2 increase the efficiency of water use by plants. This was confirmed in experiments reported by K.E. Idso and S.B. Idso. They found that enhanced CO2 increased growth by 31 percent in plants with adequate moisture but it increase growth by 62 percent for plants in moisture-stressed condition. In effect, enhanced CO2 by reducing water loss created the same effect as providing more water. Thus the effect in moisture-stressed plants was the effects of enhanced CO2 plus the effect of increased water.

The effect of increased CO2 in narrowing the stomata of plants has the additional benefit that a lesser amount of pollutants in the air will make it through the narrower openings. Thus enhanced CO2 has the effect of protecting plants against damage from air pollutants such as ozone or sulfur dioxide.

The effect of enhanced CO2 is even greater for plants grown under low light conditions. The enhance growth is greater than 100 percent for a 100 percent increase in CO2. This compares to less than 50 percent for plants grown in normal light conditions.

The evidence that clinches the argument is that some greenhouse owners artificially elevate the CO2 level to triple what the level in the atmosphere is.

Hotter the temps the better

 

[Raw_Dog]

I wish Dr. Fever & I could switch out samples, but that would be against the TOU, so lets just say if we switched samples...the proof would be in the pudding!!! I know a lot of growers who have victimized by this sampling session. Bigger and denser doesn't always mean better. Science can say one thing but my taste buds and lungs say another.

 

[budbasket]

I wish Dr. Fever & I could switch out samples, but that would be against the TOU, so lets just say if we switched samples...the proof would be in the pudding!!! I know a lot of growers who have victimized by this sampling session. Bigger and denser doesn't always mean better. Science can say one thing but my taste buds and lungs say another.

Technically you said that you were pushing for optimal growth not optimal smoke in the very first post of this thread. You were right, bigger and better doesn't mean better smoke but it does mean a better plant, overall. You got my pm expressing my theory of keeping cannabis plants slightly underfed to produce a better smoke. Quantity would be great, if I pushed it to the max, but quality would suffer.

 

[Stonefree69]

Well, let me explain why I refuse to raise my temps to 80plus degrees. Since the A/Cs were installed in our rooms, we have been producing the finest top notch fruit I have seen since i began. I can not imagine raising the temps to a land that isn't comfortable for me. I don't like 85* so don't expect me to put them in a room with 85* temps. If 75* is acceptable then thats where we will be but as for now, I'll settle with what I have.

Hey, everone's different, including plants. My neighbor had people buying his pansies from all over the world and they were raised in a sweltering 100F humid as hell greenhouse. I know we're not talking about pansies, but seems you're saying your plants like the same temps and conditions as you. You don't put welding glasses on them too do you?! My friend (who is in shape) sets his thermostat at 84F in summer. I'm sure plants would love it w/CO2, known fact. I didn't like refilling tanks either one bit. In the 80's w/the roadkill skunk smell even in backyard it was too much for my wits. Going for CO2 Boost Buckets and cheap refills. Maybe I'll DIY one BIG boost bucket w/King Stropharia shrooms, wood chips and an air pump!

Maybe I should take pictures... then ask the question.

As for Vegging, my rooms are warm, probably 80* temps. Im adding CO2 to those rooms for increased growth rates, thanks...

Had to give you +rep for that, glad you see the light! I don't mean to demean you in any way, just want you to get even better dank and yields.

Technically you said that you were pushing for optimal growth not optimal smoke in the very first post of this thread. You were right, bigger and better doesn't mean better smoke but it does mean a better plant, overall. You got my pm expressing my theory of keeping cannabis plants slightly underfed to produce a better smoke. Quantity would be great, if I pushed it to the max, but quality would suffer.

Hey if you're just going for concentrates your total THC, etc... content and yield will be greater in the end. Or at least with your trimmings. But yeah I like to go HPS and MH in flower as well to sacrifice maybe some yield with better dank. UV light in right dose does the same thing.

 

[grow nerd]

Don't anthropomorphize plants, they hate it.

 

[Raw_Dog]

Don't anthropomorphize plants, they hate it.

Meaning, because I like it don't think the plants will like it?

 

[Stonefree69]

I think it's been proven plants can talk to each other. MythBusters - Talking to plants - part1 Interesting! Talking and music did better than the control. Heavy metal music did best. Talking helps and doesn't matter what you say mean or nice. Doing nothing did worst. Myth PLAUSIBLE!

Jamie: I think I'm going to get checked out by the police for growing pot

 

[grow nerd]

Meaning, because I like it don't think the plants will like it?

Yup. It's a recursive humor saying, "don't anthropomorphize _____, they hate it". As if _____ has human-like intelligence and characteristics (to know whether to like or dislike being anthropomorphized), to begin with...

I can not imagine raising the temps to a land that isn't comfortable for me. I don't like 85* so don't expect me to put them in a room with 85* temps.

For instance, just because you don't like getting wet and can't swim doesn't mean that your pet fish should also be placed in a dry environment.

 

[Cali MedPatient]

I kind of do have a side by side experiment, as I have a room at my house that has co2, it's sealed when the lights are on, fresh air when the lights go off, with the a/c I keep the temps around 75.

I help a friend and in his room there is no co2, just fresh air and lots of it. We grow the same strain, (I provide him with the clones) the same nutes, the same soil, the same size pots, same lights, same bulbs (only I have different reflectors) both rooms are about 75 degrees with dehumidifiers to keep the RH in check, and I get 30% more yield consistently. I'm not able to document it, you will have to take my word for it, but we get nice dense crystally nugs.

 

[Raw_Dog]

I kind of do have a side by side experiment, as I have a room at my house that has co2, it's sealed when the lights are on, fresh air when the lights go off, with the a/c I keep the temps around 75.

I help a friend and in his room there is no co2, just fresh air and lots of it. We grow the same strain, (I provide him with the clones) the same nutes, the same soil, the same size pots, same lights, same bulbs (only I have different reflectors) both rooms are about 75 degrees with dehumidifiers to keep the RH in check, and I get 30% more yield consistently. I'm not able to document it, you will have to take my word for it, but we get nice dense crystally nugs.

That's all I was wanting to know. Thank You Cali Med. I'm installing mine ASAP to gain the results.

 

[Raw_Dog]

Yup. It's a recursive humor saying, "don't anthropomorphize _____, they hate it". As if _____ has human-like intelligence and characteristics (to know whether to like or dislike being anthropomorphized), to begin with...


For instance, just because you don't like getting wet and can't swim doesn't mean that your pet fish should also be placed in a dry environment.

I agree grow-nerd, you're right. I really don't care for 68-70* rooms but they do.

I should have stated earlier that if you haven't tried my method then don't make solid judgments.

 

[grow nerd]

What makes you think I haven't tried it?