Ace Malawi and Cycloptics Greenbeams: caught in the Under Current!
- Thread starter timmur
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TnTLabs
Active member
lol... you guyss!
timmur
Member
Thanks for the adice. I've heard that from several people, but I've been very conservative based on recommendations from Current Culture and guys who grow in the UC all the time. They consistently warn against too high nutrient levels in the UC, particularly with high DO levels.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about.
Here's pics of them today. They are growing, but still don't seem to be completely healthy. Too much nutrients or not enough?
That's what I see when the EC is too low...YMMV. What's your EC now? Are your plants Mg hungry? It's been suggested to me that I use 1-2g/gal epsom salt with Mg hungry strains. I don't know jack about dwc or Malawi, so I may be pissing in the wind. What are your PAR levels looking like? All the lights on? Maybe turn off a few lamps, I know you can't raise them
What's the deal with those bottom leaves? Don't feel bad, I'm struggling to get my GG#4 cuts off the ground too. Going from a heavy feeder to a fert-sensitive plant hasn't been the smoothest transition.Almost every commercial feed chart recommends 2+ EC for aggressive growing plants. If you have ideal conditions IMO you increase the metabolism of the plant much as an athlete must eat special diets for their extreme demands, higher performance systems such as aeroponic s and high growth hydro and soilless systems... I would be trying a high quality feed program if you don't have experience in identifying deficiencies...
I did aero and drip hydro buckets for the better part of a decade and I had the best success using high levels of H2O2 and starting my feed at 1.5 EC at plant day and upping it about .5 an EC every weekly flush and replenish. Max for most heavy feeders is 3.5 EC but even sensitive varieties usually will enjoy 2.5-3 EC in ideal conditions...
Run your Co2 about equivalent of x700 ppm to EC..so 2 EC feed I put my Co2 @ 1400ppm.
Definitely low low on food, spraying on some food right out of the res with a cap of cal/mg or some extra micros will help them pull more salt out of the nutrient if you raise it too...
I did aero and drip hydro buckets for the better part of a decade and I had the best success using high levels of H2O2 and starting my feed at 1.5 EC at plant day and upping it about .5 an EC every weekly flush and replenish. Max for most heavy feeders is 3.5 EC but even sensitive varieties usually will enjoy 2.5-3 EC in ideal conditions...
Run your Co2 about equivalent of x700 ppm to EC..so 2 EC feed I put my Co2 @ 1400ppm.
Definitely low low on food, spraying on some food right out of the res with a cap of cal/mg or some extra micros will help them pull more salt out of the nutrient if you raise it too...
timmur
Member
Thanks rykus. You're suggesting much what Ez has suggested. My concern is that Current Culture and anyone who has ever grown in the UC says over feeding is one of the single biggest mistakes. According to them, I'm alraedy approaching the high end of the veg range in terms of EC. They usually site the high DO levels and full root exposure to the available nutrients as the reasons. They also stress that the UC is much different from other hydro methods and folks who come at with experience with those other systems don't do well as they try to feed too much.
One thing is certain, I need to do something as they aren't growing as fast or as healthy as I would like. I'm tempted to up the nutrients in spite of what Currrent Culture and others recommend and see if they improve. I'm wondering if Veg & Bloom is a poor choice for the UC. Anyway, I appreciate the advice and will try increasing. I checked the EC today and it was down to .65 and the pH had risen to 6.5. Those who grow in the UC say that the upward swing is normal and a good sign so that is good I think. That also suggests more nutrients are required.
timmur
Member
That's what I see when the EC is too low...YMMV. What's your EC now? Are your plants Mg hungry? It's been suggested to me that I use 1-2g/gal epsom salt with Mg hungry strains. I don't know jack about dwc or Malawi, so I may be pissing in the wind. What are your PAR levels looking like? All the lights on? Maybe turn off a few lamps, I know you can't raise them
I'm at 700 PPFD and the EC was .85 yesterday. Today it is at .65. I guess I'll try raising the nutes again. Good luck on the GG#4!
Those plants look like mine when I have root problems. When I flip the pot over they most often have died in the bottom of the pot because I over watered. So to me it makes sense what the others are saying about them being hungry.
But I have zero experience with hydro so I could be wrong.
But I have zero experience with hydro so I could be wrong.
timmur
Member
85% - 95% DO saturation each time I check. Roots are healthy.
I would be wary of that companies advice if the feed is not working for your variety... Lots of start ups happening with less than ideal background or testing....
From my experience over the years, the plant can't see the system, just the inputs, so if you get closer to ideal range for longer periods of time, the more active the plant metabolism and growth always leads to higher demands....
Aeroponics has been shown to have some of the fastest growth and be one of the most ideal systems for actually testing the feeding of plants effectively.
By this I mean I could up my ppm until the nutrient salt started pulling water back out of plant causing slight wilt, I would imediately lower ppm 150-200 ppm and try again later.
Never once had that happen on any variety at even 2 EC on plant day, and most would thrive until 2.5 EC, just % would die if weak..and just planted.
anyways dwc is not a new thing, these undercurrent guys sound like they're cashing in and while the elevated DO makes sense and increases the workability of the system, still can only be as good as proper aero or nft IMO, not better, so just find some real hydro gurus and follow their feed charts.
Low temps can be an issue in water as well, you seem on the safe but low side, if at all possible monitor it right at roots and try for 69-70*.
If you are set on lower feeds you are going to have to foliar on your Micro nutrients... Use a good wetting agent like saturator, and cal/mg or halo style product..
Good luck!
From my experience over the years, the plant can't see the system, just the inputs, so if you get closer to ideal range for longer periods of time, the more active the plant metabolism and growth always leads to higher demands....
Aeroponics has been shown to have some of the fastest growth and be one of the most ideal systems for actually testing the feeding of plants effectively.
By this I mean I could up my ppm until the nutrient salt started pulling water back out of plant causing slight wilt, I would imediately lower ppm 150-200 ppm and try again later.
Never once had that happen on any variety at even 2 EC on plant day, and most would thrive until 2.5 EC, just % would die if weak..and just planted.
anyways dwc is not a new thing, these undercurrent guys sound like they're cashing in and while the elevated DO makes sense and increases the workability of the system, still can only be as good as proper aero or nft IMO, not better, so just find some real hydro gurus and follow their feed charts.
Low temps can be an issue in water as well, you seem on the safe but low side, if at all possible monitor it right at roots and try for 69-70*.
If you are set on lower feeds you are going to have to foliar on your Micro nutrients... Use a good wetting agent like saturator, and cal/mg or halo style product..
Good luck!
timmur
Member
The Dangers of Early Adoption!
The Dangers of Early Adoption!
So here's the latest. I completely drained the system, removed the plants, removed the O2 grow system, and installed the stock aeration pump/diffusers. I suspect that I was over oxygenating in the epicenter causing nutrient/mineral precipitation and destabilizing the solution. I found little stones in the epicenter when I emptied it and I know it wasn't from inadequate mixing of nutrients in solution as I mixed in advance of topping off system. I lowered light levels and set the EC @ .35. That was yesterday. The plants look visibly better with less clawing/curling and tips look better.
I'm not entirely sure that the O2 Grow was an issue, but I wanted to take some variables out of the equation. It looks like it takes over oxygenation in the epicenter to get the modules to decent DO levels. When the O2 Grow was active, I was getting 110% - 120% super saturated DO levels in the epicenter and 55% in the modules. I now believe that it would take an emitter for each module for the O2 Grow to be effective in the UC. Another confounding factor is the fact that i still don't have inline DO monitoring. Agrowtek has promised it for months, but still hasn't delivered. All things considered, the O2 Grow is going on the shelf until I have a some stability.Here's how the girls look this morning.
The Dangers of Early Adoption!
So here's the latest. I completely drained the system, removed the plants, removed the O2 grow system, and installed the stock aeration pump/diffusers. I suspect that I was over oxygenating in the epicenter causing nutrient/mineral precipitation and destabilizing the solution. I found little stones in the epicenter when I emptied it and I know it wasn't from inadequate mixing of nutrients in solution as I mixed in advance of topping off system. I lowered light levels and set the EC @ .35. That was yesterday. The plants look visibly better with less clawing/curling and tips look better.
I'm not entirely sure that the O2 Grow was an issue, but I wanted to take some variables out of the equation. It looks like it takes over oxygenation in the epicenter to get the modules to decent DO levels. When the O2 Grow was active, I was getting 110% - 120% super saturated DO levels in the epicenter and 55% in the modules. I now believe that it would take an emitter for each module for the O2 Grow to be effective in the UC. Another confounding factor is the fact that i still don't have inline DO monitoring. Agrowtek has promised it for months, but still hasn't delivered. All things considered, the O2 Grow is going on the shelf until I have a some stability.Here's how the girls look this morning.
frostqueen
Active member
Yo, Timmur! Kicking some ass at last I see. I need to bust out my Malawi seeds, too. Too damned many strains to test.
I did the DWC for years. My 2 cents worth: I agree that you should stay within the 5.5-5.9 range for ph, no higher. And yes, EZ's right: more food! Those recommendations on the chart seem low to me.
You could also try a kelp foliar to help balance things out. I've been using the RAW kelp extract once every 7-10 days in veg to great benefit; 1/16 tsp per gallon. They say that the ideal way to do kelp foliars is to use 5 parts humid acid and 2 parts kelp extract. No more than every 7-10 days, though; that shit is high octane. You can find it on Amazon.
That should solve this within a week. Another opinion for you to take or leave. I would add that an African sativa is going to droop quite a bit naturally. I mentioned the kelp foliar because every time I do it my leaves get an erection for the next few days.
Those roots look fantastic, by the way.
You are an inspiration, my friend.
They've grown quite a bit, but still look underfed to me. You're running ~1g/gal of powder for .35EC. I plug that into a nutrient calculator and...
NO3 18.5
NH4 2.6
NH2 0.0
N Total 21.1
P 5.8
K 28.5
Mg 6.6
S 11.9
Ca 26.4
Fe 0.05284
B 0.05284
Mn 0.18494
Zn 0.00000
Mo 0.00026
Na 0.00000
Cu 0.00000
Cl 0.00000
Co 0.00000
Si 0.00000
Se 0.00000
I'm POSITIVE that is too weak.
NO3 18.5
NH4 2.6
NH2 0.0
N Total 21.1
P 5.8
K 28.5
Mg 6.6
S 11.9
Ca 26.4
Fe 0.05284
B 0.05284
Mn 0.18494
Zn 0.00000
Mo 0.00026
Na 0.00000
Cu 0.00000
Cl 0.00000
Co 0.00000
Si 0.00000
Se 0.00000
I'm POSITIVE that is too weak.
timmur
Member
Yo, Timmur! Kicking some ass at last I see. I need to bust out my Malawi seeds, too. Too damned many strains to test.
I did the DWC for years. My 2 cents worth: I agree that you should stay within the 5.5-5.9 range for ph, no higher. And yes, EZ's right: more food! Those recommendations on the chart seem low to me.
You could also try a kelp foliar to help balance things out. I've been using the RAW kelp extract once every 7-10 days in veg to great benefit; 1/16 tsp per gallon. They say that the ideal way to do kelp foliars is to use 5 parts humid acid and 2 parts kelp extract. No more than every 7-10 days, though; that shit is high octane. You can find it on Amazon.
That should solve this within a week. Another opinion for you to take or leave. I would add that an African sativa is going to droop quite a bit naturally. I mentioned the kelp foliar because every time I do it my leaves get an erection for the next few days.
Those roots look fantastic, by the way.
You are an inspiration, my friend.
I wouldn't say kicking ass; maybe getting my ass kicked!
Thanks for the tip on the kelp foliar. I'll check it out.
Checkout the pics below; they are looking better already. Regarding nute strength, all I can say is that Current Culture and most of the successful guys running the UC are topping out at 800 - 900 PPM.
From Current Culture
timmur
Member
I appreciate your advice EZ, and I may regret it, but I'm gonna give Current Culture's recommendation a try. So far the plants have improved significantly by dropping the nutes. I'm still not happy with them, but they improved rapidly which leads me to believe the DO levels may have been low in the modules and the nutes were too high.
my 5 cents
For the strong growth of the root system recommend adding P, your plants shout about the lack of P
Phosphorus is very important in a period of growth of the root. I recommend calculate the solution.
400-450 ppm works fine to veg. and pre-bloom... 70-80 of them must be phosphorus.
At such levels of ppm you can raise a lot of types of genetics.
I borrowed these figures from a friend breeder , he passed through a lot of different genetics in rdwc systems (diy and UC)
these figures works for Malawi also, only a phosphorus must be managed , take it easy
For the strong growth of the root system recommend adding P, your plants shout about the lack of P
Phosphorus is very important in a period of growth of the root. I recommend calculate the solution.
400-450 ppm works fine to veg. and pre-bloom... 70-80 of them must be phosphorus.
At such levels of ppm you can raise a lot of types of genetics.
I borrowed these figures from a friend breeder , he passed through a lot of different genetics in rdwc systems (diy and UC)
these figures works for Malawi also, only a phosphorus must be managed , take it easy
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