A question for the growers using Jacks 5-12-26

[Zeez]

Sorry to keep asking stupid questions, but it helps to do the homework and avoid starting off with a clusterfuck.

I get it about keeping it simple and the ongoing possibility of lockout. With that in mind, is it safer to start off with over (extra) watering schedule with coco or rock wool to prevent crystallization and dry out? And then dialing it down? With my current nutes, runoff is recirculated back to the reservoir and then fresh res started every other fill. Is it a bad idea to do this with 321? Currently it's an economy measure that allows for better coco saturation.

Also, Is anyone doing a regular flush protocol? Maybe substituting one or two feedings per week with a big flush of clean water? Or, watching the runoff ec to determine flush schedule?

Again thanks. I guess everyone started here and maybe others will benefit from these answers too.

 

[beta]

Sorry to keep asking stupid questions, but it helps to do the homework and avoid starting off with a clusterfuck.

I get it about keeping it simple and the ongoing possibility of lockout. With that in mind, is it safer to start off with over (extra) watering schedule with coco or rock wool to prevent crystallization and dry out? And then dialing it down? With my current nutes, runoff is recirculated back to the reservoir and then fresh res started every other fill. Is it a bad idea to do this with 321? Currently it's an economy measure that allows for better coco saturation.

Also, Is anyone doing a regular flush protocol? Maybe substituting one or two feedings per week with a big flush of clean water? Or, watching the runoff ec to determine flush schedule?

Again thanks. I guess everyone started here and maybe others will benefit from these answers too.

There's no reason to recirculate, even for economy. Set your watering up so you get 5-10% runoff (to drain) every watering and water 2-12 times per day depending on how big the plant is relative to its pot. You CANNOT over water coco, it naturally holds the correct oxygen to water ratio. You could literally leave your drip system on all day if it wasn't wasteful.

Never ever ever ever feed coco plain water until final flush, you will strip the cation bank and your plants won't have access to any calcium or magnesium until that bank is satisfied again.

 

[p0opstlnksal0t]

If you recirculate with any nute how do you know what your plants have stripped out of the feed water? how do you know the ratios in the runoff that get drained back to your res? therefore how do you know how much of each macro to put back into the res at fillup?

 

[Zeez]

Never ever ever ever feed coco plain water until final flush, you will strip the cation bank and your plants won't have access to any calcium or magnesium until that bank is satisfied again.

I've had good results with this. When runoff ppm gets too high I put 10-15 gallons per plant of fresh water watching the runoff ppm. When it the runoff numbers get low, then the plants get another feeding of fresh nutes and back on schedule. It's more about giving the plants what's in the res and detoxing the excesses of what they didn't need.

My feeding system is set up on Zwave switches making it possible to sit in a chair and do this with voice command or an iPhone. All I have to do is flip two valves to dump the reservoir when the flush returns get too high. Then the res refill is back to auto. That's why I asked about dosing pumps before I knew Jack.

If you recirculate with any nute how do you know what your plants have stripped out of the feed water? how do you know the ratios in the runoff that get drained back to your res? therefore how do you know how much of each macro to put back into the res at fillup?

I just go with a clean res every other fill. It's been working well. There were a few problems with the mix getting too rich that were cured with dialing the mix back to 1100-1200 to start.

 

[caljim]

This is a HUGE mistake. Nutrients like Jacks are sold as two separate parts for a reason. If you combine them together at concentration they will react with each other and your nutrients will precipitate out of solution, making them unavailable to your plant.

Never ever ever combine concentrated nutrient solutions. Mix each into the rez at working strength before adding the next.

I have been doing this for a couple years.

There is no precipitation at that concentration, and the stock can stand for weeks without anything falling out..ever. The 5 gallons dilutes out to about 60 gallons at 1.2ec.

Dont knock it till ya try it.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

If you recirculate with any nute how do you know what your plants have stripped out of the feed water? how do you know the ratios in the runoff that get drained back to your res? therefore how do you know how much of each macro to put back into the res at fillup?

You don't without detailed testing. Have you read lucas nute profile info and story though? He ran something like 2 full veg and flower cycles, recirculating, before he ran into nutrient def issues, before he changed his res. I believe there is a point of unbalance based on environment, res size, etc... I could run my old 25 gal recirculating for 30 days before draining and replacing. A lot of people recommend 2 weeks before draining and replacing.


the balance is to top off the res to the nutrient strength you desire. So If your 1.2ec to start, just add enough water to bring the res level back to full, and enough nutes, to full strength 1.2ec. I simply put mine on float valves connected to a bulk res keeping the water level full all the time. Once a week or so I might have to add plain water to lower the ec.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

This is a HUGE mistake. Nutrients like Jacks are sold as two separate parts for a reason. If you combine them together at concentration they will react with each other and your nutrients will precipitate out of solution, making them unavailable to your plant.

Never ever ever combine concentrated nutrient solutions. Mix each into the rez at working strength before adding the next.

I think you got confused. He is diluting them in 5 gallons. With a starting amount of 100g of jacks and 82g of cal nit, I don't think he stands any chance of precipitation or fall out. Proven by his years of experience doing so. that's for much higher concentrations, like when you make stock solution, like I do, with 880g jacks per 1 gallon. His 20g jacks per gallon is only 2% of my concentration. Now if you mixed my stock concentrations together, it would precipitate out. It is good advice to never mix concentrated 2 parts together before you mix them in the bulk amount of reservoir water though.

 

[p0opstlnksal0t]

You don't without detailed testing. Have you read lucas nute profile info and story though? He ran something like 2 full veg and flower cycles, recirculating, before he ran into nutrient def issues, before he changed his res. I believe there is a point of unbalance based on environment, res size, etc... I could run my old 25 gal recirculating for 30 days before draining and replacing. A lot of people recommend 2 weeks before draining and replacing.


the balance is to top off the res to the nutrient strength you desire. So If your 1.2ec to start, just add enough water to bring the res level back to full, and enough nutes, to full strength 1.2ec. I simply put mine on float valves connected to a bulk res keeping the water level full all the time. Once a week or so I might have to add plain water to lower the ec.

No I have not read that but it sounds like a must-read I know Delta runs recirculating in his PPK system very effectively I'll see if I can find that Lucas the red you mention

 

[eric2028]

So I’m seeing quite Afew growers making their own nutrients and designing their own profiles to match cannabis requirements. I’m currents running jacks 321 in pure coco and loving it btw. I d like to fool around changing my values alittle or at least fully grasp the ability to do so. Is there a good read/thread someone can recommend? Or even if someone can explain in detail how they calculate their own? Thanks in advance!

 

[Speed of green]

I sent a water & fert sample to jr peters for analysis.

The water sample is plain municipal water, the plants seem to grow okay with it but i get a lot of precipitation with the jacks when mixing my reservoirs.

The fertilizer sample is jacks & calcnit mixed 3g/2g per gallon.

i am not sure if my water is compatible with jacks, anyone see an obvious issue?

thanks!

Fert sample

Tap water sample

 

[Miraculous Meds]

I sent a water & fert sample to jr peters for analysis.

The water sample is plain municipal water, the plants seem to grow okay with it but i get a lot of precipitation with the jacks when mixing my reservoirs.

The fertilizer sample is jacks & calcnit mixed 3g/2g per gallon.

i am not sure if my water is compatible with jacks, anyone see an obvious issue?

thanks!

Fert sample
View Image

Tap water sample
View Image

Im far from an expert with water analysis, but what would concern me is the level of alk, which I believe is alkalinity, and that's why your tap ph is above 7. And that's whats driving your ph to 6.3 after nutrients. that's ok for soil, but just on the high side for hydro.


Also of concern is the 50 or 60 ppm of sodium. that's no good for plants.


Cl is on the high side too. Id probably ro that water and use 1/2 tap, 1/2 ro. but your damn na n cl would still be a bit high maybe, just 25% tap. or a good sediment n carbon water filter might get you where you need to be.

 

[Budley Doright]

MM as far as Im concerned is a very accomplished grower but I would like to say a bit on this thing...

YOu say your plants look fine but......

You posted numbers for your tap and over 7 not a good thing..

However you add jacks and calnit and you end up with what is commonly referred to as slightly acidic.....

When I first started jacks I had a fancy machine to test ph....

Now I use simple drops.... I shoot for slightly acidic

So my water plus jacks is slightly acidic...

Ive messed around with ph some....

I havent noticed a difference....

You should celebrate the fact this product was made for 'small indoor growers'

and its just not really that fussy....

Im ok with the fact that everything is pretty darned good.....and I do nothing

instead of me having to f with little shits.....

JMO

 

[beta]

You should celebrate the fact this product was made for 'small indoor growers'

Jack's was not made for small indoor growers, it was developed for large scale greenhouse agriculture.

 

[Budley Doright]

I thought it was a hydroponic fertilizer?????

Here are the facts as I know them...

I grow using jacks and I also grow in hydro outside....

I would not use jacks in either a typical greenhouse or large scale anything...

The formulation is cannabis specific..... it has high levels of magnesium and sulfur that may be a detriment for other plants...

cannabis uses way more magnesium than about anything else.....

For hydroponic greenhouse I use scotts ..... which is almost the exact same formula but dont have jacked up magnesium and sulfur

Futher indication....when you compare the 2 fertilizers....

Jacks vs scotts....

jacks falls under mel franks fertilizer numbers where the scotts product does not...

 

[Speed of green]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, i am switching to r/o for a round to see if i notice any differences.

For the record these are 135' greenhouses with hydroponic PPK systems.

 

[beta]

I have been using Jacks for years also. Your numbers look right to me.
I mix 3 pounds (the limit per gallon) of Jacks 5-12-26 into 1 gallon of RO Water for A stock, and 2 pounds of Calnit into a gallon of RO Water of for part B.
Mix 10mils of each per gallon to achieve a perfect solution in your reservoir. Should be 900ppm @ .5 conversion, or, 1.7ec.
https://goo.gl/photos/wwLweHxjYj8ZUGpdA
https://goo.gl/photos/cHeHxJZ1WbEjPqJD6

Just to make sure we're all on the same page here - Is that powder + 1 gallon of water, or 1 gallon total once the powder is mixed into the water? Given the mass of 2 or 3 pounds of powder relative to 1 gallon of water, the difference is significant.

 

[Hookah79]

it’s one gal before adding nutes.

 

[beta]

it’s one gal before adding nutes.

Cool, so it probably ends up being around a gallon and a half?

 

[Miraculous Meds]

Cool, so it probably ends up being around a gallon and a half?

I don't use that concentrated of a formula but I can tell you for sure that 880g jacks, and 580g of cal nit in a one gallon container(separate 1 gal for each) , then topped up with ro water to the top of the one gallon container, comes out at 10ml a gallon each to 1.3ec. But I tend to get a sludge build up in the jacks at that concentrate, so I cut those numbers in half and use 20ml a gallon usually making stock solution.

 

[beta]

I don't use that concentrated of a formula but I can tell you for sure that 880g jacks, and 580g of cal nit in a one gallon container(separate 1 gal for each) , then topped up with ro water to the top of the one gallon container, comes out at 10ml a gallon each to 1.3ec. But I tend to get a sludge build up in the jacks at that concentrate, so I cut those numbers in half and use 20ml a gallon usually making stock solution.

I bet you're getting sludge because this takes you beyond the solubility of Jack's. They recommend 1 gallon of water to 880g of Jacks, and if you're ending up with a gallon total at the end you're probably only using 0.5-0.75 gallons of water.