a ppk for a 6 plant limit

[high life 45]

I just mention the coco because i have seen more problems than benefits with in a ppk setting. Everyone seems to have overwatering issues. Since nobody reads the old ppk bible anymore cuz its too long, they miss the several times where it has been mentioned. D9 doesn't recommend coco in ppk.

Haha snook, the one thing I liked about the rice hull was there were great place for benes to grow, I had some metarhizum anisopliae on some of my rice hulls when I dealt with root aphids. Was funny to buy bails of it from the local brew supply shop.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

I just mention the coco because i have seen more problems than benefits with in a ppk setting. Everyone seems to have overwatering issues. Since nobody reads the old ppk bible anymore cuz its too long, they miss the several times where it has been mentioned. D9 doesn't recommend coco in ppk.

Haha snook, the one thing I liked about the rice hull was there were great place for benes to grow, I had some metarhizum anisopliae on some of my rice hulls when I dealt with root aphids. Was funny to buy bails of it from the local brew supply shop.

I know where supposed to use 8822 or turface, just I don't have easy access to either, but I can get coco easily and I know it well, so that's why im trying to use it. I have used it with success but am trying to make it better. While experimenting I do run into problems and set backs, but I think there is still an advantage to bringing the pwt into the tailpiece, giving more ideal water/oxygen in all the medium the plant is growing in.

I would recommend to anybody to use the turface or 8822 over what im doing, im just working with what I have.

Im just wondering about the hydraulic effect vs the pwt. Can I still effectively bring my pwt into the tailpiece without the hydraulic effect. If not I can still set my airgap to 5" with loose and course coco and I think I can accomplish a situation where I don't overwater.

 

[Snook]

I just mention the coco because i have seen more problems than benefits with in a ppk setting. Everyone seems to have overwatering issues. Since nobody reads the old ppk bible anymore cuz its too long, they miss the several times where it has been mentioned. D9 doesn't recommend coco in ppk.

Haha snook, the one thing I liked about the rice hull was there were great place for benes to grow, I had some metarhizum anisopliae on some of my rice hulls when I dealt with root aphids. Was funny to buy bails of it from the local brew supply shop.

I still go there and read.

and still find rice hulls from years ago here and there.

 

[Snook]

I know where supposed to use 8822 or turface, just I don't have easy access to either, but I can get coco easily and I know it well, so that's why im trying to use it. I have used it with success but am trying to make it better. While experimenting I do run into problems and set backs, but I think there is still an advantage to bringing the pwt into the tailpiece, giving more ideal water/oxygen in all the medium the plant is growing in.

I would recommend to anybody to use the turface or 8822 over what im doing, im just working with what I have.

Im just wondering about the hydraulic effect vs the pwt. Can I still effectively bring my pwt into the tailpiece without the hydraulic effect. If not I can still set my airgap to 5" with loose and course coco and I think I can accomplish a situation where I don't overwater.

i used coco for 2 grows, wasnt 'bad'. but GNATS! gno gnats with gjacks. (<oops) gturface

 

[delta9nxs]

In order of greatest choice to last choice, how would you rate:
Coco
Turface
Diatomite (floor dry 8822)
Grostones
Perlite

I already know turface is first, but I'm curious to where coco lands. Last I remember you don't suggest coco as a media, people still seem apt to use it right off the bat though.

turface is the shit! diatomite is good depending on brand. i've never used growstone products but i just checked their site and it looks good for full flood pulse as it is recycled glass so should be negatively buoyant and it is internally micro porous so will hold a lot of water. but it will have no cation exchange capacity and it's capillary rise potential is unknown. the 1-7 mm propagation grade would be the right particle size and distribution.

both coco and perlite can be used with a wave type pulsed irrigation. i used the atami loose fill and that texture performed well. i would avoid the "coffee grind" stuff.

 

[delta9nxs]

Yes the drain equals the tail piece I was talking about.

So the hydraulic connection? Is that critical? Because I show signs of overwatering a lot when the water level is touching the tailpiece. Doesn't the tailpiece still allow me to lower my pwt into it without the tailpiece being in the water level? Thus making it a better dtw recirculating system cause my pwt is in the tailpiece instead of the pot. That's my take on it using coco that seems to wick too much.

the tailpiece (wick) functions as a two way road for the flow of nutrients as well as water.

i've looked at your thread and don't see any pics of your set up. it would help me understand if i could see how you are operating.

what are you using for a plant container? tailpiece or wick? individual plant reservoir?

if the water in the lower container is not touching the tailpiece then you are still draining the pwt but have disconnected the hydraulic pathway.

this prevents diffusion from working to keep nutrients from accumulating in the medium and may change the water/air relationship too rapidly for your pulse schedule.

all this equates to less than optimum growth rates.

and makes it more likely to fail in the event of a power outage.

put up some pics if you can.

 

[Miraculous Meds]

the tailpiece (wick) functions as a two way road for the flow of nutrients as well as water.

i've looked at your thread and don't see any pics of your set up. it would help me understand if i could see how you are operating.

what are you using for a plant container? tailpiece or wick? individual plant reservoir?

if the water in the lower container is not touching the tailpiece then you are still draining the pwt but have disconnected the hydraulic pathway.

this prevents diffusion from working to keep nutrients from accumulating in the medium and may change the water/air relationship too rapidly for your pulse schedule.

all this equates to less than optimum growth rates.

and makes it more likely to fail in the event of a power outage.

put up some pics if you can.

7 gallon planters, with 3" tailpiece that is 6" long with 3.5 gallon buckets under the planters. the 3.5 gallon bucket is about 10", so at 4" water level id just be touching, im thinking of going with a 5" water level to give me the hydraulic effect and still have a 5" air gap.

Thanks for explaining D9.

 

[delta9nxs]

7 gallon planters, with 3" tailpiece that is 6" long with 3.5 gallon buckets under the planters. the 3.5 gallon bucket is about 10", so at 4" water level id just be touching, im thinking of going with a 5" water level to give me the hydraulic effect and still have a 5" air gap.

Thanks for explaining D9.

you have a normal set up that should be functioning fine so your plan for a 5" air gap sounds good to me. you may just have some very fine particle coco fiber that is decreasing the air filled porosity by retaining more water than is desirable.

if that's the case you may need to extend the interval.

you should be using a wave type pulse putting small amounts out frequently.

when attempting a full flood with coco i have seen the pooled water visibly push down the coco temporarily compressing it.

during compression it won't flow as much water and may take much longer to drain.

the 3.5gal buckets are 11" high so with the 6" tailpiece you would need a 6" water level as a minimum to give you a 1" overlap and a 5" air gap.

 

[Grow4Flow]

D9,
Got a few questions for you regarding the build above....

1)are there 2x4's mounted in the concrete between the wall and drywall? if so, how'd you get the water to drain back at the lowest point, cut through the 2x4?

2)all of my rooms have 6 sites, on a 633gph pump along 2 stretches of 10ft PVC it was tough to dial in the valves to flood each tub evenly, how'd you do so running PVC around the whole room? is the idea to use overkill on pump or?

3)how much cooling and how is the heat that the AC's put off get exhausted?

4)did you find another cheaper source for those 70qt mucks?

Thanks in advance

 

[delta9nxs]

D9,
Got a few questions for you regarding the build above....

1)are there 2x4's mounted in the concrete between the wall and drywall? if so, how'd you get the water to drain back at the lowest point, cut through the 2x4?

2)all of my rooms have 6 sites, on a 633gph pump along 2 stretches of 10ft PVC it was tough to dial in the valves to flood each tub evenly, how'd you do so running PVC around the whole room? is the idea to use overkill on pump or?

3)how much cooling and how is the heat that the AC's put off get exhausted?

4)did you find another cheaper source for those 70qt mucks?

Thanks in advance

howdy! i didn't build the feed and return lines so i don't know but the 1.5" return line is almost laying on the floor.

use the biggest pump you can afford. since the pumps only run minutes per day electrical consumption is not an issue.

on #3 i don't know again as i didn't build it. i just retrofitted a new ppk design into an existing ppk room. not my place.

no, i'm still paying too much for the tubs but i plan to get hooked up wholesale on all this stuff.

 

[fishinnutt]

Created a 9 site setup based on this thread and the original ppk thread and I have to say these things are incredible. To hedge my bets I put 5 plants in coco (my usual way) and 4 in ppk, as great as coco is, my ppk are running away with it. Thanks so much to Delta9nxs for sharing such a gift with the community and taking his time to answer my personal pm's.

 

[DrFever]

Yo D9 just getting things finalized for my set ups both under current DWC and ppk set up...
Seeds are germinating almost ready to place in first stage of rockwool 1" slabs so i got like 2-3 weeks to get it all done hahah Fuck i been lazy lately mean time they will stay in nana dome
Anyways for my PVC size does it matter if i go 2 or 3" in size ??? and if so what are they flow rates ?? my plans are to go 3" PVCi kinda need to know cause need to order uniseals also 3" PVC is cheaper lol

 

[delta9nxs]

the only place you would use pvc pipe in a plant module is for the tailpiece/wick assembly.

i like the 3" for that.

"flow rate" is not applicable here as the drain is gravity propelled during the first part and pulled out by capillary siphon for the second. so enough to accomplish this is sufficient as long as it is done in a reasonable amount of time. say 5 minutes total flood and drain time. the shorter the better.

also, if you are using this for the tailpiece the uniseals are not the best choice. i strongly recommend that you build them as you see here.

 

[delta9nxs]

Created a 9 site setup based on this thread and the original ppk thread and I have to say these things are incredible. To hedge my bets I put 5 plants in coco (my usual way) and 4 in ppk, as great as coco is, my ppk are running away with it. Thanks so much to Delta9nxs for sharing such a gift with the community and taking his time to answer my personal pm's.

thank you for trying this and for sharing your experience! you don't happen to have any pics, do you?

 

[DrFever]

I also seen you use or mention the pondmaster submersible pump 2400 gph ??? would you know how much water temps increased since using this ??? i am looking for a pump that is not submersible for that reason alone
Also the reason i asked about the 2 - 3 " is instead of running garden hose for return lines was going to use 3" i plan to have faster water movement through out system to help get rid of any gas exchange in lower bucket,
On last note for water returning back to main res do you run any inline filters for possible contaminants ??

 

[av8or]

When the system is running at 90 minute flood intervals, the pump is only on for a minute or two every 90 minutes to two hours. This won't add any heat to the water that is of any consequence. If I remember correctly, D9 runs his res at around 82 F anyway. The roots aren't growing in the water so it doesn't need to be cold. Warm water carries DO better.

 

[Ichabod Crane]

Water has less oxygen carrying ability the warmer it gets.

 

[DrFever]

When the system is running at 90 minute flood intervals, the pump is only on for a minute or two every 90 minutes to two hours. This won't add any heat to the water that is of any consequence. If I remember correctly, D9 runs his res at around 82 F anyway. The roots aren't growing in the water so it doesn't need to be cold. Warm water carries DO better.

I think you got that backwards my friend The amount of dissolved oxygen that the water can hold depends on the temperature and salinity of the water. Cold water can hold more dissolved oxygen than warm water that is the reason so many DWC growers run chillers etc so i am guessing its rather important when flooding that the water has a good saturation point of 02 ??? which i think is most crucial point in any type of system

running at 90 minute intervals or 2 hrs to run its cycle ??? the pump is still running at full power but you got it is restricted so pump is working over time with back pressure and over heating possibly creating heat no other way your going to shake it
the feed lines are not cracked wide open there pinched back so it floods gradually if i am not correct
if it wasn't i am sure that pump force would blow the medium all over the place so i am guessing like a pressure washer
I am just trying to trouble shoot prior to deciding on what mag pump i want to purchase and being more efficient for instance
instead of 1 pump running at 1800 gph at 4 foot of head for 250 watts where i could go two 1000 gph units with same head for 180 watts 28 percent less power consumption and have same flow
if anyone is going to do this or try guessing it would be best to have all parameters in check including water temps i also read D9's water temps where on the high side would he see better overall growth if water temps were in check i bet he would

So this is the dilemma i am in and leaning more to 2 pump set up thinking its a win win meaning i never have to worry about single pump failure and if i decide to go away i can easily run one pump with even more cost savings right ??? or pull one for service never having to worry about losing circulation

 

[gregor_mendel]

would you know how much water temps increased since using this

i plan to have faster water movement through out system to help get rid of any gas exchange in lower bucket

i am guessing its rather important when flooding that the water has a good saturation point of 02 ??? which i think is most crucial point in any type of system

The way PPK and DWC work are entirely different. You seem to think that the roots in a PPK get oxygen from dissolved oxygen in the water. They get oxygen from the air that is sucked into the medium through the piston (plunger?) action of the flooded container draining. You can hear the void opening if you put you ear to a plant module as it drains.

All the statements I quote above are correct and in context with regard to DWC, but do not apply to PPK. We don't care about dissolved oxygen, and therefore do not care about water temperature.

 

[delta9nxs]

this system is not a fast moving hydroponic system dependent on water as the o2 delivery system.

the solution basically delivers h2o and nutrients.

the oxygen is derived from ambient air in the root zone where it is readily taken up and easily replaced by diffusion between pulses as well as full replacement via the pulse.

a container of ambient air at sea level holds 23,300 times the possible free o2 molecules as the same size container of water at maximum saturation by atmospheric partial pressures.

so the only reason water temperature is important is for plant growth. i think the plants have a higher metabolic rate and grow faster with higher temps.

the solution could be intentionally depleted of oxygen and the system would still function fine.

my pumps only run approx 16 minutes per day so heat from the pump is not an issue.

the ppk does not function on the same principles as rdwc, bio-bucket, or undercurrent systems.

trying to improve the ppk by combining the operating principles of all these systems will result in disaster.

you could hook all the individual plant reservoirs in tandem as well as back to the float reservoir but it would serve absolutely no purpose as the water and nutrients are re-blended evenly every time the pump fires.

but, it may be convenient for some situations for the reservoirs to be hooked up this way and not independently back to the main reservoir. in that scenario i would run a very small recirculating pump just to keep the solution homogenized.

a large pump continuously running can cause uneven solution levels if the plumbing is restricted anywhere.

the ppk system, as you have seen it detailed here for these two rooms, has now evolved to where it is a cleanly functioning, extremely stable, highly redundant, commercial grade system that doesn't fail.

why not just build it as you see here and take advantage of more than 5 years of other peoples research and development?

ps. filters clog!

hey, gregor! you were posting yours while i was writing mine. thanks for the help!