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A Complete Guide to Topping, Training and Pruning
- Thread starter Kodiak
- Start date
Hey basscadet,
You can top very short plants, even beneath the 4th node, if they have the right build. Sometimes you have to top them as early as possible in order to keep them very low, say if height is an issue.
I think the best advice is to look for new vegetative growth at the lower nodes. When you see small branches and leafs forming, it is safe to remove the growth one or two nodes above.
On the other hand, you can also remove growth later on in training with the same results. I think it all depends on how many times you inted to top your plants.
A bit vague maybe
but all plants are different so you have to go by your feeling. You can try out different approaches as long as you do not remove the plants ability to grow altogether. Most plants will bounce back sooner or later, in one way or the other.
However, topping the plants at the 4th node can be considered safe.
You can top very short plants, even beneath the 4th node, if they have the right build. Sometimes you have to top them as early as possible in order to keep them very low, say if height is an issue.
I think the best advice is to look for new vegetative growth at the lower nodes. When you see small branches and leafs forming, it is safe to remove the growth one or two nodes above.
On the other hand, you can also remove growth later on in training with the same results. I think it all depends on how many times you inted to top your plants.
A bit vague maybe
but all plants are different so you have to go by your feeling. You can try out different approaches as long as you do not remove the plants ability to grow altogether. Most plants will bounce back sooner or later, in one way or the other.However, topping the plants at the 4th node can be considered safe.
Young Pumpkin
Member
Hey Kodiak, hope all is well. I finally concluded my 'lil test and also dug up some info on some things. I wont repeat it here but thought it might be of interest to you. Its in the Topping Question thread under Growers Forum. I've learned a bit and thought some of it might be of interest to you or other readers of this thread. Thanx again for your info and post, this certainly has been a (good) learning experience. Later.........(I am learning to "search" better too, hahaha)
M
Mike_Hunt
could i do monster cropping also by just not taking a clone, but by putting my plant into flower and then back to veg?
Great post, Thanks !
phatboyfromla
Member
Is it better to top before a light cycle or towards the end of the light cycle? Or does it not matter? TIA
R
Rollem&Smokem
That was the best IMO detailed thread on A Complete Guide To Topping, Training And Pruning and I even made notes and copied some of the pics for future reference.
Much Thanks for Sharing & Helping Kodiak!
Much Thanks for Sharing & Helping Kodiak!
phatboyfromla
Member
I have topped (attempted FIM) one of my plants. Just waiting to see what, if anything, begins taking over as the primary growth.
Thanks guys, I'm glad that you liked it.
Caille, you can start LST'ing soon after the clones have rooted. You could top the plants first, that way you will have more to work with. Topping at the 4th node is considered safe, so you could go by that. I usually top my plants when I see new vegetative growth at the lower nodes.
Topping the plants can cause minor stress but LST is considered a low stress technique, hence the name. So there is no need to worry, you can train them as much as you like without causing them any stress. The technique relies on a natural response that plants have to sunlight (phototropism), meaning that the plant will always direct the shoots and the leafs towards the light, elongating the branches where needed.
You can tie down the branches with string, gardening wire or twist ties. Just make sure that you leave some room for growth. The ties do not have to be tight in order for LST to work.
Working with plants in this way is fun but also requires a lot of attention, so make small adjustments as you go along and you will soon have a really nice and thick plant. You can top the plant several times in order to shape it into a dense bush.
Single stemmed plants like cannabis have something called apical dominance, which means that the main central stem of the plant is dominant over other side stems. The main shoot sends supressive hormones down the stem to the lower branches, which stops them from growing. By removing the main shoot, you also cancel the apical dominance, and that is why the plant grows into a bush.
phatboyfromla, some people like to top their plants during the dark hours because then most of the growth hormones (mainly auxin) have been sent down to the roots. The idea is that this will speed up the recovery process but personally I don't think that it makes that much of a difference. I usually top the plants when the lights are on and they bounce back quite quickly.
Caille, you can start LST'ing soon after the clones have rooted. You could top the plants first, that way you will have more to work with. Topping at the 4th node is considered safe, so you could go by that. I usually top my plants when I see new vegetative growth at the lower nodes.
Topping the plants can cause minor stress but LST is considered a low stress technique, hence the name. So there is no need to worry, you can train them as much as you like without causing them any stress. The technique relies on a natural response that plants have to sunlight (phototropism), meaning that the plant will always direct the shoots and the leafs towards the light, elongating the branches where needed.
You can tie down the branches with string, gardening wire or twist ties. Just make sure that you leave some room for growth. The ties do not have to be tight in order for LST to work.
Working with plants in this way is fun but also requires a lot of attention, so make small adjustments as you go along and you will soon have a really nice and thick plant. You can top the plant several times in order to shape it into a dense bush.
Single stemmed plants like cannabis have something called apical dominance, which means that the main central stem of the plant is dominant over other side stems. The main shoot sends supressive hormones down the stem to the lower branches, which stops them from growing. By removing the main shoot, you also cancel the apical dominance, and that is why the plant grows into a bush.
phatboyfromla, some people like to top their plants during the dark hours because then most of the growth hormones (mainly auxin) have been sent down to the roots. The idea is that this will speed up the recovery process but personally I don't think that it makes that much of a difference. I usually top the plants when the lights are on and they bounce back quite quickly.
B
Born420
A lovely read. Thank you for posting this guide. Very good for a neophyte. Thanks again.
ITryToGrow
Member
Great thread!
I have a question tho...
I have a grow going right now with clones from flowering plants and much like the picture from your #1 post (below) they are all stretchy. The internode length is really long and the branches doesn't look like they can support much weight at all?
The clones are in a 4x4 tent with a 600HPS so light shouldn't be a problem.
Any idea of what could be wrong?
I have a question tho...
I have a grow going right now with clones from flowering plants and much like the picture from your #1 post (below) they are all stretchy. The internode length is really long and the branches doesn't look like they can support much weight at all?
The clones are in a 4x4 tent with a 600HPS so light shouldn't be a problem.
Any idea of what could be wrong?
The problem is that the energy need of the plants is spread out over too much growth and some of the branches are not getting enough light. You will have to look at the plants and remove any growth that you think will use up more energy than it is worth.
I would probably keep the plants in veg and top and train them for a while until they become more robust.
Remove any branch that is too stretchy or weak and allow the plant to concentrate on the rest. You can either keep many smaller branches or just save the dominant ones but either way you have to make sure that you get short internodes or too much energy will be spent on building stems.
Think of it this way; the plant has a certain amount of energy that it must distribute across the board. More growth also means that less energy is spent on any given area and the plant will also spend more energy on growth that is poorly lit in order for it to catch up with the rest (governed by growth hormones and resulting in stretch). By removing the "energy sinks" you enable the plant to concentrate on the most productive areas.
In other words, you need to narrow down the options for the plant because it will always try to support all it's growth and sometimes this is not energy efficient.
You could also scrog the plants, redirecting the branches so that the entire grow area is covered in budding nodes. I think that a combination of topping and LST'ing is needed here.
Once the plants are properly scrogged, you can remove the growth underneath the net because it will never get enough light and only produce small "pop corn" buds that never really mature.
Keep in mind that it is probably not a good idea to make hasty decisions in this case. Remove a little bit of growth here and there, now and then and watch how the plant takes shape. You need to have patience and allow the plant some time adapt over time.
By pulling the right strings you will get very robust plants with big buds.
I would probably keep the plants in veg and top and train them for a while until they become more robust.
Remove any branch that is too stretchy or weak and allow the plant to concentrate on the rest. You can either keep many smaller branches or just save the dominant ones but either way you have to make sure that you get short internodes or too much energy will be spent on building stems.
Think of it this way; the plant has a certain amount of energy that it must distribute across the board. More growth also means that less energy is spent on any given area and the plant will also spend more energy on growth that is poorly lit in order for it to catch up with the rest (governed by growth hormones and resulting in stretch). By removing the "energy sinks" you enable the plant to concentrate on the most productive areas.
In other words, you need to narrow down the options for the plant because it will always try to support all it's growth and sometimes this is not energy efficient.
You could also scrog the plants, redirecting the branches so that the entire grow area is covered in budding nodes. I think that a combination of topping and LST'ing is needed here.
Once the plants are properly scrogged, you can remove the growth underneath the net because it will never get enough light and only produce small "pop corn" buds that never really mature.
Keep in mind that it is probably not a good idea to make hasty decisions in this case. Remove a little bit of growth here and there, now and then and watch how the plant takes shape. You need to have patience and allow the plant some time adapt over time.
By pulling the right strings you will get very robust plants with big buds.
ITryToGrow
Member
Great answer! Thanks Kodiak!
The clones were probably "faulty" from start.
They were taken from females that were only about 5-6 weeks old, of which only 2 of them were from vegging.
On top of that, when the clones had rooted (took about 2 weeks) I only had them vegging for another 2 weeks before I flipped it to 12/12.
I guess that immaturity could explain a lot, don't you think?
Anyway, I've been trimming a little here and there, I even removed 2 whole plants that weren't getting any light at all.
So we'll see what happens.
Thanks again!
The clones were probably "faulty" from start.
They were taken from females that were only about 5-6 weeks old, of which only 2 of them were from vegging.
On top of that, when the clones had rooted (took about 2 weeks) I only had them vegging for another 2 weeks before I flipped it to 12/12.
I guess that immaturity could explain a lot, don't you think?
Anyway, I've been trimming a little here and there, I even removed 2 whole plants that weren't getting any light at all.
So we'll see what happens.
Thanks again!
Yeah, you probably should have spent more time on training in veg before flipping the switch on them.
In a way clones are never immature because they are exactly as old as the mother plant, and if she was sexually mature, basically so are the clones.
The thing is that if indeed these were flowering clones, it took some effort for the plants to revert back to veg and since you changed back to 12/12 so quickly after they rooted, the plants never really got any time to rest, recover and adapt, which is also why they are struggling (the interal hormonal signalling goes haywire from changing the light schedule back and forth).
I think that you should keep them under 12/12 but do some minor adjustments here and there. You can still push the plant towards a more productive state by removing the inferior branches but you can probably also expect a longer than usual flowering time if you do.
Or, you can also let them go feral and see what happens, plants can sometimes surprise you.
The main thing to remember is that your plants are healthy and basically doing fine, that is already something to be happy about.
In a way clones are never immature because they are exactly as old as the mother plant, and if she was sexually mature, basically so are the clones.
The thing is that if indeed these were flowering clones, it took some effort for the plants to revert back to veg and since you changed back to 12/12 so quickly after they rooted, the plants never really got any time to rest, recover and adapt, which is also why they are struggling (the interal hormonal signalling goes haywire from changing the light schedule back and forth).
I think that you should keep them under 12/12 but do some minor adjustments here and there. You can still push the plant towards a more productive state by removing the inferior branches but you can probably also expect a longer than usual flowering time if you do.
Or, you can also let them go feral and see what happens, plants can sometimes surprise you.
The main thing to remember is that your plants are healthy and basically doing fine, that is already something to be happy about.
Hey Kodiak,
Love the thread dude, got it premenantly tagged. I just wanted to know your views on the Stretch Phase using HPS Vs MH or CMH/Spectrum Enhanced-Adjusted Lamps.
As i believe HPS are balanced in the RED/ORANGE Spectrum & this encourages more stretch as appossed to using a lamp balanced toward the Blue or the Like.
I have just been advising someone to leave their Veg HPS(Spec Enhanced))for the first few weeks of Bloom to help reduce stretching!
Thanks in advance.........Peace.................Scroger'
Love the thread dude, got it premenantly tagged. I just wanted to know your views on the Stretch Phase using HPS Vs MH or CMH/Spectrum Enhanced-Adjusted Lamps.
As i believe HPS are balanced in the RED/ORANGE Spectrum & this encourages more stretch as appossed to using a lamp balanced toward the Blue or the Like.
I have just been advising someone to leave their Veg HPS(Spec Enhanced))for the first few weeks of Bloom to help reduce stretching!
Thanks in advance.........Peace.................Scroger'
