4th grow in Promix - I still suck - Help

[Bwanabud]

the problem with the promixes and sunshine mixes is everything can look great until it doesn't and noticing the first signs and correcting right away before feeding again has been critical to my own journey. I took a decade absence from having to worry about PH and PPm's and just grew a good organic mix outside and straight rain water from a barrel.
I'm running my own re-learning curve over here in the sunshine mix so am also soaking in the info being thrown down here. though it's more of a refresher for me.

You have to keep close watch on the ph & ppm of the media run-off, Virgin Promix is 5.4-5.6 right out of the bag...so you're behind the 8 ball at the beginning. It's critical to check run-off once a week, for peace of mind or addressing the problem...if you run low ph waterings/feedings it only drops lower in the root zone, and controlling the root zone is the name of the game.

Continuing to pound the plant with more nutes only makes the matter worse, a lock out is in session and the nutes aren't available to the plant because of ph...it's an endless cycle if you don't get to the "root" of the problem, it's simple control your media.

If you run organic you needn't worry too much about ph, but then the priority is managing the micro herd and still controlling your soil...no matter what style you choose, there are challenges and issues to keep in check. And that includes coco also, it has it's problem and drawbacks..once again, keep the roots happy and you can keep the plant happy.

 

[Chimera]

I will give this a try. The plant was flushed recently, should I attempt doing this before feeding or flush again? It will have been a while since she was fed. I imagine the priority is ph over feeding but i just want to confirm before moving ahead.

pH and feed at the same time.

Put it this way: take a bucket of water, measure the pH, and add exactly 5 drops of pH up (KOH). Note the change in pH.

Then take an equal bucket of water, add 500 ppm nutrient mix, and measure the pH again as you did the first. Then add eactly 5 drops of pH up (KOH), again as you did in the first bucket. Again, measure the pH. You'll now notice, the pH didn't change by as much as it did when you added the up to the first bucket without nutrents.

Why? Remember, pH is a measure of H+ ions in the water. When an H+ ion meets an OH- ion, water is formed (H2O) and the pH goes up, because you reduced the amount of free H+ in the water. The nutrients you added adjusted the availability of H+ ions, meaning the 5 drops of KOH (disassociated in water, leaving K+ and OH- ions) didn't have the same "power" to sway the balance of H+. This is why the pH didn't move as much with 5 drops.

Essentially, a 500 PPM solution will have more pH stabilizing/moving "power" than a solution comprised of just water without nutrients. The nutrients acts as a pH 'buffer', slowing the rise or drop in pH.

By the same property, a water mix with 500 ppm and a pH of 8.5 has more pH neutralizing effect than a mix of 50 ppm and a pH of 8.5. To say it another way, the strong nutrient solution will be able to shift the pH of the soil better than just using pH'd water alone.

Excuse the layman's explanation of science, I tried to make it clear without getting too deep into the chemistry of it all and still provide the rationale behind what is actually happening and why.

Thanks guys. And I have been spraying but i guess it's not doing enough Should i be getting the underside of the leaves?

Foliar fed nutrients can ONLY be taken up by the plant when applied to the underside of the leaves. Google "Stomata"; they are small pores found on the underside of the leaf that release oxygen and take in CO2. When you foliar feed, you 'hijack' the stomata, and use it to bypass the root system to provide nutrient to the plant. Foliar spraying nutrients on top of the leaf doesn't feed the plant like spraying from the underside does. If you are doing it that way, you are just raining on the plants without feeding them.

 

[Donkeybrains]

Get some RO water and Sensi grow and bloom from Advanced Nutrients. You don't have to check or adjust PH! Throw the meeters in the trash and rest easy! I promise it will put the fun back in it

 

[Limeygreen]

Not checking pH is a big mistake, I don't care what nutrients you use or what crop you grow, checking your pH and nutrient levels is extremely important and if left unchecked can lead to problems, maybe you can grow 10 crops without doing but in the long run it will catch up to you, check and correct, if you are noticing your pH always going lower, adjust your pH as Chimera has stated many times, but don't wait for it to crash, if you know and check every time that when you fertilize with a pH of 6.5 and it comes out of the drain at 5.5, try watering with a pH of 7 or 7.5 and if it comes out at 6.5 you know you're fine, but you need to check your pH to make sure what is coming out as if you are feeding 7-7.5 pH every time and the pH doesn't drop in the drain you will end up with too high of a pH. It doesn't take much time to check these things and will save a lot of head aches and heart breaks.

 

[Granger2]

"Throw the meeters in the trash..." What a bunch of crap. pH meters are good to have on hand even if only used rarely. Good luck. -granger

 

[Bwanabud]

Not checking pH is a big mistake, I don't care what nutrients you use or what crop you grow, checking your pH and nutrient levels is extremely important and if left unchecked can lead to problems, maybe you can grow 10 crops without doing but in the long run it will catch up to you, check and correct, if you are noticing your pH always going lower, adjust your pH as Chimera has stated many times, but don't wait for it to crash, if you know and check every time that when you fertilize with a pH of 6.5 and it comes out of the drain at 5.5, try watering with a pH of 7 or 7.5 and if it comes out at 6.5 you know you're fine, but you need to check your pH to make sure what is coming out as if you are feeding 7-7.5 pH every time and the pH doesn't drop in the drain you will end up with too high of a pH. It doesn't take much time to check these things and will save a lot of head aches and heart breaks.

Yep, we've been saying for 10 pages...nobody seems to listen

"Throw the meeters in the trash..." What a bunch of crap. pH meters are good to have on hand even if only used rarely. Good luck. -granger

Meters ?, "who needs stinking meters" ?...just stick your finger in the water and guess, it will be close enough...I read it on the internet one time

 

[Tynehead Tom]

the starting PH of my mix once I wetted it out ready to put plants in PH'd out at 6.8 with the 1/2 strength 480ppm wetting mix
I've been feeding at 6.3 /6.4, 980ppm, in the 3 gallon pots I'm just ready to do my first flush at 6.8 480ppm.
I'm using RO water with a small addition of my well water (ph7.2 450-480ppm from tap) to bump my PH from 6 to 6.4 after adding nutes (which raises the RO with food from 850ppm to 950/980)

question @ chimera, bwanabud ect..... would you guys just flush with the straight well water at 7.2ph 450ppm or do you think what I typed above at 6.8 with nutes at 450ppm.
I'm "assuming" my well water is adding ca and mg as it's rich in minerals. maybe I should send some to get tested hehe. I'm brand spankin new at having well water for growing plants. last time I grew indoor I was in the big city.

 

[Chimera]

Tom, I definitely can't recommend you flush using water with unknown dissolved solids, so a water test is in order if you are serious about your garden. Once you have the result, you can then formulate a plan of action. Otherwise, RO is where it's at.

And yes, pH and EC/ppm meters are required tools of the trade, like kitchen knives to a chef. Sure there are "instant" no-pH nutrients around, there is also Chef Boyardee cans of ravioli. I prefer home cooked pasta; short cuts = low quality, so why cut corners when the lesson should be "how do I master and understand pH". The OP will be better off after he gets though this growing pain, and will be able to go on teaching others how to do it right in the future. I guess we could all eat Chef Boyardee and take short cuts, but learning and understanding the hows and whys of growing is a much more rewarding experience that leads to future successes. Each one teach one, and resins will abound.

 

[Tynehead Tom]

cool beans, RO it is and I'm gonna stop using the well water to adjust until I know what's in it.
It's a long way for me to go to get my water tested but I need some koolbloom and another bale of sunshine mix so it's off to town Monday to get my water tested.
Thanx Chimera

 

[Jonnysact]

pH and feed at the same time.

It's still suffering from Mg shortage, not as bad but the problem persists. Foliar spray with Epsom salts, and keep flushing with a high pH-H2O until you are seeing healthy green growth.

And while I agree with rykus that the plant was too small for the pot size to flush in an ideal world, it's a matter of priorities imo. With the pH too low, the plant would just get worse. If it were me, I would fix the pH first.

That plant needs to be taken to a bath tub and have the soil rinsed through with pH 8-8.5 water until the runoff hits 7. Readjust the water, and then water through with pH 7.5 (350 ppm total, 100 ppm Epsom salts) until you hit 7. If you do this, the plant will bounce back with healthy green growth. If you don't fix the issue the plant will continue on with this lime green color and the harvest will suffer in terms of both yield and quality.


Put it this way: take a bucket of water, measure the pH, and add exactly 5 drops of pH up (KOH). Note the change in pH.

Then take an equal bucket of water, add 500 ppm nutrient mix, and measure the pH again as you did the first. Then add eactly 5 drops of pH up (KOH), again as you did in the first bucket. Again, measure the pH. You'll now notice, the pH didn't change by as much as it did when you added the up to the first bucket without nutrents.

Why? Remember, pH is a measure of H+ ions in the water. When an H+ ion meets an OH- ion, water is formed (H2O) and the pH goes up, because you reduced the amount of free H+ in the water. The nutrients you added adjusted the availability of H+ ions, meaning the 5 drops of KOH (disassociated in water, leaving K+ and OH- ions) didn't have the same "power" to sway the balance of H+. This is why the pH didn't move as much with 5 drops.

Essentially, a 500 PPM solution will have more pH stabilizing/moving "power" than a solution comprised of just water without nutrients. The nutrients acts as a pH 'buffer', slowing the rise or drop in pH.

By the same property, a water mix with 500 ppm and a pH of 8.5 has more pH neutralizing effect than a mix of 50 ppm and a pH of 8.5. To say it another way, the strong nutrient solution will be able to shift the pH of the soil better than just using pH'd water alone.

Excuse the layman's explanation of science, I tried to make it clear without getting too deep into the chemistry of it all and still provide the rationale behind what is actually happening and why.




Foliar fed nutrients can ONLY be taken up by the plant when applied to the underside of the leaves. Google "Stomata"; they are small pores found on the underside of the leaf that release oxygen and take in CO2. When you foliar feed, you 'hijack' the stomata, and use it to bypass the root system to provide nutrient to the plant. Foliar spraying nutrients on top of the leaf doesn't feed the plant like spraying from the underside does. If you are doing it that way, you are just raining on the plants without feeding them.

Amazing. Your knowledge... incredible.

Will give these suggestions a shot. Thank you again!

 

[Limeygreen]

Water tests run about 40$ cdn, not sure about us prices but last I looked slightly cheaper. Don't cheap out on the water test go to a reputable lab, should only take a couple days for results. Not just total dissolved solids, get all the cations, anions, micros, bi carbonate levels etc the few extra dollars will help you a lot. If you have too much bicarbonates you have to just adjust your pH accordingly but you also need to stabilize it and let it sit to make sure you're solution has stayed around the pH you want, it could shift depending on the level of bicarbonates as they react with your acid. RO water is the safest bet as you don't have to worry as much.

You may also find that your well water has too much sulfur or calcium, iron or even iron feeding bacteria which will gum up irrigation equipment. DNA multiscans are good for testing for things like fusarium, pythium, pythopora (spelling is bad) etc,, but cost around 100$ for the test. If you have these things in your well, you can treat with say 100 ppm of hydrogen peroxide to kill them, use products like tricoderma to prevent these things on your plants, but ro water would still be easier so you don't have to mess around, peroxide is always nice addition to water for irrigation and can help keep root diseases at bay, 10-20 ppm should be safe enough, I know people using up to 1000 ppm with no damage on plants or roots but this is due to their water supply available and not wanting to have to use fungicides to treat these issues, I don't recommend 1000 ppm in your water though, just offering an example so please don't do it.

 

[Tynehead Tom]

Ya , I sat down late last night and put some thought into it. I'm a confident grower and my plants look great but the well water is a new twist for me. I'm not above sitting back and taking a lesson or two as a way to refresh the skills. I think I'm just gonna run RO and get some quality PH up n down and some cal/mag when I head to the big city for koolbloom and sunshine 4.

 

[_tessarecting]

It took me a while to dial this stuff in. Ive had a bunch on sunshine so im using it. I ran calmag last time but im going to try not to this time because the lime in the soil. Ill watch for deficiency but keep the ph at 6.8. Ive been getting quality but can tell my last yield could have been better if I was phing higher. Doing a run now in 3 gallons instead of twos. Hoping to see some bigger nugs this time. If not, thats the last of the sunshine, and will switch back to coco next run.

I had issues before I switched to RO too but I use the well to raise temps.

 

[Tynehead Tom]

ya, i'll just be getting the cal/mag for foliar spraying only.
the Shiskaberry I'm growing, if my memory serves, likes to pound thru those two elements in late flower like no tomorrow.

 

[_tessarecting]

What rate do you use for foliar?

 

[Tynehead Tom]

couldn't tell you for sure, but off the top of my head, 150ppmcal/50ppmmag. But I have a dozen binders filled with grow logs/calendars and feed schedules/supplements from my prior years growing indoors that I'd have to refer to so don't quote me on that LOL

 

[Bwanabud]

I foliar spray at 1/4-1/3 strength, depending on age/deficiency issues....always in the dark or it will burn the leaves.

 

[Jonnysact]

Hey Chimera,

I've been flushing one of the ladies for about an hour now. Maybe put roughly 24 liters through a 2.5 liter container. Flushing at 8.4- 8.5 and the runoff hasn't really moved. Runoff started at 6.5 and now it's between 6.6 and 6.7. Am I going to be damaging my plants if I go much longer?

***update
Alright, about 2 hours later I finally got a runoff of 7.0.

Now on to part II lol. I'll post back in a bit after hopefully having some success with this next part.

I'm completely dreading that I'll have to do this twice more for the two other plants. So time consuming...

 

[Jonnysact]

Wow. I've finally arrived.

Nearly 4 hours later. Got the runoff from 8.5 - 7.0, then from 7.5 with feed to 7.0

That took way more time than I could have ever expected. What is best going forth? Do i continue to water at the recommended 6.5 or no?

Time for a bing bong rip.

 

[Tynehead Tom]

you should wait for a reply from the experts here. I bet chimera is eye ball deep in 420 seed drop stuff right now hehe
In my case, once I hit that target neutral area, I feed nutes at 6.4 for 2 feedings and then flush with 6.8 to 15% run off this seems to keep my plants happy and balanced. I'm growing mainly indica leaning hybrids, in sunshine 4.

I'm interested tho to hear what chimera and bwanabud have to say. Good thread Jonnysact, it's been helpful all around