400W Modular Vert Scrog Design - please help make it happen

[McSnappler]

Well, this forum has just come along at the right time for me. I'm rejigging space anyway, have come by some cheap 400W lamps, and until tonight, I've been planning to do a standard flat or dished SCROG with air-cooled hood. Seeing all this info gathered together, however, has inspired me to give vertical growing a go.

What I'm really after is a way to pull good yields from a single 400W lamp. I can also afford to run a 400W MH veg lamp, but that's about my limit as far as juice prices go these days.

I want to make my system modular, so it can be semi perpetual, with different strains finishing at different times. Maintaining the individual SCROGS will also be easier if I can just pop out the pot and screen unit in one. I would run two of these side by side, to veg and flower modules concurrently. With this in mind, I drew up a design on SketchUp. I would really appreciate your input and help with my questions..

1m x 1m x 0.85m H
400W HPS in 125mm cooltube - 285cfm 5" fan

700mm diameter screen, 490mm high, approx 14" from lamp
11.59 sq ft of screen - split into 9 sections which fit into the edges of 25cm pots -

I know I would probably do much better yield wise having loads of SOG style plants, but it's not for me right now. What I will be doing though, is building a little shelving module that takes up the space a couple of pots normally would in the above design.. this way I can flower seedlings out in small pots for selection without having to lose the whole cab.

Questions

a) Will I be able to run this box without AC? If so, would my one fan be sufficient to deal with the cooltube and the cab?

b) I understand 6-18" is the useful range for 400W HPS lamp, however the closer I can get budsites to the 6 end of the range the better. Will 14" be a sensible distance to put the screens from the 400W, giving room for the colas to grow toward the lamp, or would it be better off closer?

c) I figure there isn't much light output from either end of the Cooltube. I have no idea of whether there's light in those areas to be used, so I made the screens the same length as the cooltube. Am I cutting the screens a little short and missing out on valuable square footage?

I'm sure I've forgotten loads, it's late. Please help with any suggestions, tweaks, ideas, anything!

 

[alphacat]

a) Probably not - or rather, you might be able to, but esp. w/ a HID you're gonna need to control temps, particularly if the reservoirs are in the same space (as it appears in your schematic.) Better to overdo ventilation with this setup than underdo it. Big time.

b) A re-sizable screen is the answer here. Start with a gap in the circle of one or two columns on the screen's grid and adjust as necessary, when necessary. HPS is better at frying leaves than almost any other bulb too, so in the end err on the side of caution.

c) Yes. Pad the screens by at least 3" on top AND bottom since you're running HID. Fluoros, not so much, 2".

 

[McSnappler]

a) Probably not - or rather, you might be able to, but esp. w/ a HID you're gonna need to control temps, particularly if the reservoirs are in the same space (as it appears in your schematic.) Better to overdo ventilation with this setup than underdo it. Big time.

Thanks for responding alphacat, cheers for your reply to those questions.

I should've made it clear above, but the 25cm pots will be full of soil/coco, hand watered - another reason it's better for me to keep plant numbers lower.

With regard to AC, all I have is a 9000 BTU portable unit. I need to search on how to work this into the setup.

 

[VerdantGreen]

it's an interesting idea mate - vertical modular scrog. i cant advise much on the vertical side but i would say check your clearances around the edges and weather or not you'll be able to get the pots in and out of the back etc, if you have to lift them out then you will need the headroom too. and i wouldnt skimp on the distance from the bulb because the bigger diameter of your 'circle' the more area you'll have to grow.

good luck,

V.

 

[McSnappler]

Cheers VG.

I've been playing around a lot with different layouts. Google SketchUp is the nuts. At the moment it's looking like the added screen area from going vertical might not be as much extra as it could be. I put this down to only having the height of one 400W.. for multiple lamps I'm confident the vertical would be a better option.

This is the design I'm kind of leaning towards now..

The vertical 400W design is about 12-13 sq ft depending on how I tweak it, the horizontal design above is around 11, and would remove the need for aircon and a second fan. I do really love the vertical concept though.. bah..

 

[Hundred Gram Oz]

Hey McSnappler hows it going, how many plants are you looking to run max in the flower chamber? Are you looking to go Hydro?

Depending on your space I think you might get away without a cooltube, I wouldn't advise you to use a cooltube if you don't need it, it kills lumen's, a floor fan under the bare bulb might be a better idea but it depends on your space I suppose.


Better to overdo ventilation with this setup, couldn't agree more alpha
HGO

 

[McSnappler]

Hey dude, thanks for responding.

Number of plants is best kept as low as possible, 8-10 max. Preferably all individually scrogged so that strains can vary etc.

Prefer not to go hydro, I don't do well with big tanks of water. I'm bad enough with a bucket of nutes! I've done DWC before and in the right circumstances I know hydro is better, but not for me right now. Going with coco/soilless mix, could possibly get some drippers/sprayers and automate the feeding a bit.

The maximum space I can take up is 140cm W x 100cm D x 120cm high. Within these limits I'm down for whatever is most efficient.

Can't really get away with any extra light over the 400W.

Do you think I will be able to get away with the bare bulb and some chunky fans pointing at it then? That would be perfect, I have a meaty fan that could definately extract the space properly... plus as I'm designing the space from scratch I could make the outlet directly above the bulb, with the fans on the floor helping remove the heat from the bulb.

Any input appreciated! Cheers

 

[dreadvik]

I seen a dood do this on here in a PC cab but I forget the name of the thread have a search about though he had a similar looking setup by then end of it. Surely the fan will be OK without AC? just my thoughts as I manage to cool things on my RVK's alone here

 

[Power13]

McSnappler,

In such a small space, a cool tube could accomplish several different things for you. The size of your box, and the way you seem to want to use it, reminds me of an old thread from another site. It was called the Barrel of green. I've listed some tips from my own experience, as to how you can efficiently set this up.

When you run a cool tube vertically, all the heat naturally rises upwards. Therefore, putting a fan on top sucking the heat up and out somewhere (ducting to your attic, or another room in the house, etc) At the end of the ducting you can put a carbon filter. For efficiently dissipating heat, you should put the fan as close to the light as possible, that would be right on top of the cab if possible. I would think that you can get away with a 4" fan, but a 6" is what you really want. This fan should be on during lights on for sure, and possibly at night for 15 minutes every hour, so that humidity doesnt build up too much(Towards the end of flowering you may want to leave it on constantly). If you upgrade later, 1 good 6" fan at the top of a vertical light stack, is enough to cool the whole thing (i've tried up to 4 600's, and it still worked well).

Also, the end of your cool tube should remain open at the bottom, with maybe a pany-hose netting to stop anything from getting sucked up. With some nicely sized intake holes you shouldn't need anything else for ventilation. If running a 6" fan, to be really sure, you want double the area of your exhaust, thus 2 *(6" * 3.14 * 2)= 75.36 square inches. How you get those inches doesn't matter, you can use lot of smaller holes, or 2 large 6" holes, your choice. What does matter is there placement. You want them in the upper part of your cabinet, because your are sucking from the bottom. This will prevent stale air anywhere in the cab, and circulate fresh air(co2) for your plants.

Now lastly, what you do inside the cab is up to you. But IMHO, if you're already going to the trouble of setting all this up, consider hydro. Even if you start with handwatering coco, then maybe setup a drip system later on. Hydro will allow you better take advantage of the increased available light to your plants.

 

[McSnappler]

I seen a dood do this on here in a PC cab but I forget the name of the thread have a search about though he had a similar looking setup by then end of it. Surely the fan will be OK without AC? just my thoughts as I manage to cool things on my RVK's alone here

I've seen it done a lot with fans blowing at the bare bulb amongst 150W users in small cabs... im using the same concept with my 150s to get the plants nice and close, just not vertically, and with reflectors!

I also understand from the 150W club that cooltubes aren't great as they sap lumens, so doing without one of those would be quality too.


Power13.. thanks for responding dude. All input greatly appreciated.

I can definately see the benefit of a cooltube as far as removing the heat from the lamp in the most efficient way possible is concerned. My fan is actually a 5" inline Xpelair. I currently run it 24/7 anyhow, so it wouldn't be a problem to continue that.

From your post it seems that you are suggesting to have a ventilation system that goes ... cooltube > fan > duct > filter - I would prefer to not have to push through the filter. Sorry if this isn't what you meant. Do you think I would get away with the single 285CFM fan if the configuration was.. cooltube > filter > fan? Will there be enough suction from that badboy to effectively slurp the warm air from the upper reaches of the chamber, down through the cooltube? For this reason, I could see the benefit of NO cooltube, as long as temps would allow.. less drag on the fan, more efficient performance, better scrubber performance.. Will definately have a good inlet/exhaust ratio. A lot of my first reading on this forum back in jan was about proper airflow.

Lastly, I really don't want to have a hydro system if I can help it. Apart from the fact I hate the thought of big tanks of water in the place my grow is, there are tougher penalties in my area for growers the more "sophisticated" your setup is.. I'm probably already pushing the boundries considering the vertical setup, but I'm hoping they just think I couldn't afford a proper hood

 

[Power13]

Something else to think about. You can make the scrogs as panels. As many panels as you have plants. You can make them out of 1/2" pvc, then connect them using zip ties or such. Its not quite as effiecient as a perfect circle, but its close. If you have 6 or more, you should do fine.

 

[McSnappler]

Something else to think about. You can make the scrogs as panels. As many panels as you have plants. You can make them out of 1/2" pvc, then connect them using zip ties or such. Its not quite as effiecient as a perfect circle, but its close. If you have 6 or more, you should do fine.

This is pretty much my intention, though the above sketch doesnt show it well. Each screen would be a panel made from PVC pipe, and fitted to each pot in the right configuration to get as close to a circle as possible.

 

[Power13]

Power13.. thanks for responding dude. All input greatly appreciated.

I can definately see the benefit of a cooltube as far as removing the heat from the lamp in the most efficient way possible is concerned. My fan is actually a 5" inline Xpelair. I currently run it 24/7 anyhow, so it wouldn't be a problem to continue that.

From your post it seems that you are suggesting to have a ventilation system that goes ... cooltube > fan > duct > filter - I would prefer to not have to push through the filter. Sorry if this isn't what you meant. Do you think I would get away with the single 285CFM fan if the configuration was.. cooltube > filter > fan? Will there be enough suction from that badboy to effectively slurp the warm air from the upper reaches of the chamber, down through the cooltube? For this reason, I could see the benefit of NO cooltube, as long as temps would allow.. less drag on the fan, more efficient performance, better scrubber performance.. Will definately have a good inlet/exhaust ratio. A lot of my first reading on this forum back in jan was about proper airflow.

Lastly, I really don't want to have a hydro system if I can help it. Apart from the fact I hate the thought of big tanks of water in the place my grow is, there are tougher penalties in my area for growers the more "sophisticated" your setup is.. I'm probably already pushing the boundries considering the vertical setup, but I'm hoping they just think I couldn't afford a proper hood

It doesn't matter where the filter is, you could even sit it on top of the cab. As in, put the fan on top of the cab, then connect it to the filter using a piece of ducting. This allows you to use the fan the way you wanted it.

You have a filter that can be placed inline is what i think you're saying?

If not, then the other thing you could do is place the filter below the cool tube as well. I think with such a short straight run, it would still work, but never having tried it, i can't say for sure.

I think with a 400, you can get away with no cool tube, but then also sit a small fan directly underneath the bulb. Also the fan placement above should be kept the same, for best heat dissipation. Directly above is where you want it.

In response to the last part, i think that a vertical scrog is about as technical as you can get, in terms of efficient use of light at least. I don't know if they will think the same way. If not, then i can see your reasoning. But if they do, then whats the difference hydro or not? More yield for you, and same punishment.

You could do a dwc as well, that way water would never have to leave 1 large tub. Just cut holes in the lid to go around the tube. Thats the simplest form of hydro in my opinion, that is still worth it to run.

 

[Power13]

Btw McSnappler,

You mentioned wanting to run 2 of these. My question is, based on the space that they occupy. Why are you using such a small wattage? A 600 would give you a substantially bigger yield.

Also, have you thought about using 2 400's per box? If you only have 2 ballasts, you could build a flip-flop box fairly easily, the plans are in the DIY here.

Based on the space that your box occupies, a 600 would do well, or 2 stacked 400's would do great too. After all, each time you use them, its going to take at least 1 month to veg, and 2 months or so to flower. Thats quite a bit of time. Even with 2, thats 1.5 months per harvest. Why not even run 1 box, with a bigger light, or double the lights.

Something else you could do, is run 1 box as a veg box the whole time, and fill in panels. It takes a long time to completely fill each panel, so you could run totally perpetual. Harvesting 1 plant from the flower box every 2-3 weeks, and placing a new plant in its stead.

 

[McSnappler]

You mentioned wanting to run 2 of these. My question is, based on the space that they occupy. Why are you using such a small wattage? A 600 would give you a substantially bigger yield.

Also, have you thought about using 2 400's per box? If you only have 2 ballasts, you could build a flip-flop box fairly easily, the plans are in the DIY here.

Based on the space that your box occupies, a 600 would do well, or 2 stacked 400's would do great too. After all, each time you use them, its going to take at least 1 month to veg, and 2 months or so to flower. Thats quite a bit of time. Even with 2, thats 1.5 months per harvest. Why not even run 1 box, with a bigger light, or double the lights.

Something else you could do, is run 1 box as a veg box the whole time, and fill in panels. It takes a long time to completely fill each panel, so you could run totally perpetual. Harvesting 1 plant from the flower box every 2-3 weeks, and placing a new plant in its stead.

The number of lights is all about energy costs. Just heating and powering the average home has increased a massive percentage. I can't afford to run kW and kW. You make a good point about a flip flop though. I've seen them before, but never really considered the benefits. Would you run it hourly.. 1 hr top, 1 hr bottom, and so on? I could definately manage two lamps per cab if I only had to power one at a time.. the reason for 400s over anything larger is because I just grabbed a bunch for cheeep.

I agree with your thoughts on the second cab, that would be its sole purpose, to veg the next modules. I would have the system almost perpetual, but until I'm using familiar clones for every module, that will be quite difficult to time. I would try though. For these reasons, though, the relatively long veg time of the tall screens wouldn't bother me. Just an initial wait period.. but I already have babies to take up the 'dead' space for the moment..

Thanks for your input man, you're giving me some great ideas and food for thought. Final thing, none of this is for commercial gain, all of my bud is personal, which is why I'm not going balls out for yield with 2kW and a hydro, stacked setup.

That's not to say yield isn't a concern, because I don't want to waste my time and money growing insufficient amounts of bud. My aim would be to harvest enough of a particular strain, from a particular screen, that I wouldn't run out of that strain for some time. With a single 400W, that would probably two screens worth a strain, with 2x400W that could easily be a strain per screen, which I would like even more..

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Nice work with the google sketch up. I see the vertical setup with mh below for veg and the hps up top for flower. Use one bulb for each phase. Anyway, just my 2c.

 

[McSnappler]

Nice work with the google sketch up. I see the vertical setup with mh below for veg and the hps up top for flower. Use one bulb for each phase. Anyway, just my 2c.

Hey Disco dude, thanks for looking in.

I would prefer to keep sep veg and flower spaces so I could have a perpetual harvest. I'm a greedy bastard, and if my harvest came all at once it would be gone by the time the next came around.

I do like this flip flop idea though.

2 x 400W HPS flower..

2 x 400W MH veg.. (probably only one really necessary)

.. but both only draw 400W for lighting?

Sounds good to me!

 

[Power13]

Hey Disco dude, thanks for looking in.

I would prefer to keep sep veg and flower spaces so I could have a perpetual harvest. I'm a greedy bastard, and if my harvest came all at once it would be gone by the time the next came around.

I do like this flip flop idea though.

2 x 400W HPS flower..

2 x 400W MH veg.. (probably only one really necessary)

.. but both only draw 400W for lighting?

Sounds good to me!

McSnappler,

I've read about flip flops that flip about every 2 hours. Every hour might be too quick because it takes a bit of time for the flipped bulb to fully warm up, etc.

But its cool you're running with the ideas, that was the intention. I didn't think about flip-flopping vertical that way, but it would totally work, i'm getting some light bulbs of my own about that.

 

[McSnappler]

I didn't think about flip-flopping vertical that way, but it would totally work, i'm getting some light bulbs of my own about that.

Yeah man, you could scale it up pretty well. I would probably hit the bottom half of the flower cab with MH until the stretch was over, try and keep the already full half of the screen bushier whilst the top was filling out. Would that make sense?

 

[VerdantGreen]

hey mate - nice idea again and would be simpler i think, although still complicated. i find with my flat mod.scrog that you end up with an ampitheater kind of effect anyway because the buds under the bulb have to be a bit lower than those around the sides.
if you are worried about power consumption you could consider a 250 for veg as you may not need one as big as your flowering light - or are you wanting to have the same setup in there exactly as regarding screens?? - i wouldimagine that you may be better adding the screen when you flower them anyway.
this will make it more complicated than flat i think, i just rely on a very good reflector that chucks all my light down. have you looked at the diamond reflectors from greens horticulture?