4000 watt electric setup

[ParanoidNovice]

I have a room with no electric that I'll be putting an 8x8 tent in and I'm wondering the best way to wire it up. I only have 2 slots left on my electrical box. I was considering just putting 2 20 amp circuits in, but I feel like that will be pushing it to the max.

 

[ParanoidNovice]

Ok, after doing some reading I've decided to go with a 4-light controller on a 30-amp 240v circuit. I've been looking at this Master Light Controller, 30 Amp 120/240V, 4 Site w/ X Plugs
It says "The controller also comes with a 120V trigger cable that plugs into a standard 24-hour timer or controller." Just confused about how the timer works with it.

 

[mowood3479]

Yes a 30amp 240v circuit. Id use 10/3. The controller wires to the 10/3 wire which runs to ur 30a breaker . The controller plugs into a timer which plugs into any normal 120v outlet.

 

[eighty9concentr]

Bring a 100amp sub panel into the room and then you are not limited to what you can use for breakers

 

[ParanoidNovice]

Yes a 30amp 240v circuit. Id use 10/3. The controller wires to the 10/3 wire which runs to ur 30a breaker . The controller plugs into a timer which plugs into any normal 120v outlet.

Ok, so I should have the 30amp breaker dedicated solely for the lights, or can I add outlets before/after the controller? I was hoping to run everything off it....only because there are no plugs in the room now and I will have to use up the last remaining spot on my breaker box to add another circuit.

Bring a 100amp sub panel into the room and then you are not limited to what you can use for breakers

That actually would be nice...I'll look into that as well.

 

[rives]

Those controllers are dangerous. CAP is out of business, the controllers violate any & all applicable building codes, void your insurance, are not UL or CSA approved, etc. They use Chinese no-name receptacles that will accept both 120v & 240v plugs, and are illegal by all electrical standards. The instruction sheet is about 1/2 a page long, and the legal boilerplate absolving them of any responsibility is about 6 pages long.

If you don't have any available wiring in your room, probably the best option for you would be to run a sub-panel in there with a 30-60a feed. That way, you will have room to grow, access to 120v as well as 240v, etc.

What gives you the impression that 2-20a breakers would be "pushing it to the max"?

 

[ParanoidNovice]

Those controllers are dangerous. CAP is out of business, the controllers violate any & all applicable building codes, void your insurance, are not UL or CSA approved, etc. They use Chinese no-name receptacles that will accept both 120v & 240v plugs, and are illegal by all electrical standards. The instruction sheet is about 1/2 a page long, and the legal boilerplate absolving them of any responsibility is about 6 pages long.

If you don't have any available wiring in your room, probably the best option for you would be to run a sub-panel in there with a 30-60a feed. That way, you will have room to grow, access to 120v as well as 240v, etc.

What gives you the impression that 2-20a breakers would be "pushing it to the max"?

Ok, I'll avoid that controller. Do you have another to suggest?
I guess I'll also be considering adding a sub-panel now...just came from Lowe's with 30-amp breaker and 10/3 wire.
I was considering 2-120v 20 amp circuits at the time, so was thinking safely should have been under 1920 watts per. I honestly just learned the difference between 120v and 240v today.

 

[ParanoidNovice]

Something like this, right? What size wire do I need for it?

Square D 12-Circuit 6-Space 100 Amp Main Lug Load Center

 

[eighty9concentr]

Titan controls makes good light controllers, thats what i use. As far as wire size, theres a chart at home depot in the wire department that will help you figure out the right size. You need to use 4 wires though, 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground. That way you can use 240v and 120v out of the panel. Its not job to take lightly and if you just found out the difference between 120 and 240 I would recommend hiring an electrician. Not trying to be a dick but this can go very wrong if not done properly.

 

[eighty9concentr]

The wire size depends on the distance the wire will be ran.

 

[rives]

I haven't seen an off-the-shelf controller yet that complies with code. They all have to compete with each other, so they cut all the same corners in order to be competitive. If you keep the feed at 20 amps or less, than you won't need the additional protection that is invariably missing when the circuit is broken down from a 30-50a feed to the 15-20a wiring, receptacles, cords, etc.

That load center can be fed with anything up to 100a - that is the maximum that the busswork is rated for.

You also need to bear in mind that breakers are subject to the 80% rule - for continuous loads (defined as 3+ hours of uninterrupted operation), then you are only allowed to use 80% of the breaker rating.

From your level of experience, I would suggest that you get an electrician to run a subpanel into the room, and drop a few convenience outlets as well as set a dryer/range plug. The big plug can feed a water heater timer which will then feed another subpanel. This arrangement can be fed with a standard range/dryer cordset, be portable, and breaks the protection down to where it should be.

 

[ParanoidNovice]

Well, I won't be hiring an electrician so I'll have to figure it out. I've added and replaced breakers etc and am confident I won't kill myself or burn the place down. I've been using a couple 120v 20a circuits for growing that I installed years ago w/o issue.
I would appreciate all the help and info I can gather before I act, however.
So, you're saying wire up the panel and add a water timer feeding another panel with a breaker for each light? And to use a dryer plug wire to power the 2nd panel, correct?

Something like this? TORK 40-Amp Mechanical Hardwired Lighting Timer


Also, the new grow room is very close to the main panel. 15ft run maximum, more like 10

 

[mojave green]

I installed a sub panel in my outbuilding. 2 15 amp 120 1 20 amp 240 afci breakers. I prefer 240 equipment.

 

[ParanoidNovice]

Yes, I think I will be going the sub panel route as well. What do you use to control the lighting?

 

[eighty9concentr]

I use a titan helios 8, 50amp 8 light controller. All of titans products work well though, I have a few rooms and don't have problems with any of their stuff. I wire my controllers directly to my sub panels.
You will need a 3-3-3-5 copper wire to wire a 100amp sub panel. Its 4 wires, 2 hots (black and red), a neutral (white), and a ground (green or plain copper). You have to put a 100amp breaker in your main panel and run your wire from that breaker to the sub panel. 2 hots go into the double pull breaker, neutral goes on to the neutral bar, ground goes with the rest of the grounds in the box. Then you have to wire your breakers in your sub panel to your controller/outlets.
If you want me to explain anything further I will. I would prefer you hire an electrician, but since your not going to and are going to do it on your own anyway, I will try to explain things as best as I can to you.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Not going against what Rives is saying, but I've used many of the lighting relay controllers from the CAP MLCs, to Sentinel's HPH controllers, to Elemental HUB models. Everything from their 4 light models up to the larger CAP 16 & 24 outlet units. Many of these controllers have been used for about the last 7-10 years, and are still in use today. No problems ever, but hearing this is a bit unsettling.

I understand the X-style plugs are a code violation, but that doesn't really concern me as I'm the only one here and I'm not plugging 120v stuff into it, and fully aware it's a 240v controller.

Rives, regarding the rest of the controller. I understand they use cheap relays, but in 10 years of browsing online I haven't really witnessed any documented cases of any catastrophic failures with any of these hydro store style units - not to say they aren't happening non-reported! Would the relays just fail in the on or off position or is there really a real threat that these units will eventually go up in flames in time?


I realize C.A.P has bit the dust, but it wasn't necessarily due to the safety of their equipment was it? It's my understanding that their parent company R&M Supply was acquired by Hydrofarm. I believe Hydrofarm will be keeping the CAP name and re-releasing a lot of the line under their own marketing.



Don't take my post the wrong way. I appreciate your warning and ultimately want to switch out any of these controllers being used amongst my circle of friends. Practically everyone I know running 4-8k is using some form of these "hydro-shop" lighting controllers. That's a whole lot of folks at risk if these are truly that dangerous when installed/used correctly.



thanks

 

[ParanoidNovice]

I use a titan helios 8, 50amp 8 light controller. All of titans products work well though, I have a few rooms and don't have problems with any of their stuff. I wire my controllers directly to my sub panels.
You will need a 3-3-3-5 copper wire to wire a 100amp sub panel. Its 4 wires, 2 hots (black and red), a neutral (white), and a ground (green or plain copper). You have to put a 100amp breaker in your main panel and run your wire from that breaker to the sub panel. 2 hots go into the double pull breaker, neutral goes on to the neutral bar, ground goes with the rest of the grounds in the box. Then you have to wire your breakers in your sub panel to your controller/outlets.
If you want me to explain anything further I will. I would prefer you hire an electrician, but since your not going to and are going to do it on your own anyway, I will try to explain things as best as I can to you.

Thank you, this thread is becoming very helpful. Would it make sense to use smaller wire, and breaker if I don't plan on ever pulling 100 amps?
I'm not worried about wiring the outlets, and additional breakers but I'm really trying to decide on how to set up the light cycles. I ran 4000 watts once before and it was a bit of a mess. 3 breakers and 4 different timers never perfectly in sync, so I really want to get it right this time.
The light controllers seem like the easiest way to go, but I want it also to be as safe as possible. Either way I need this up and running asap...

 

[rives]

Not going against what Rives is saying, but I've used many of the lighting relay controllers from the CAP MLCs, to Sentinel's HPH controllers, to Elemental HUB models. Everything from their 4 light models up to the larger CAP 16 & 24 outlet units. Many of these controllers have been used for about the last 7-10 years, and are still in use today. No problems ever, but hearing this is a bit unsettling.

I understand the X-style plugs are a code violation, but that doesn't really concern me as I'm the only one here and I'm not plugging 120v stuff into it, and fully aware it's a 240v controller.

Rives, regarding the rest of the controller. I understand they use cheap relays, but in 10 years of browsing online I haven't really witnessed any documented cases of any catastrophic failures with any of these hydro store style units - not to say they aren't happening non-reported! Would the relays just fail in the on or off position or is there really a real threat that these units will eventually go up in flames in time?


I realize C.A.P has bit the dust, but it wasn't necessarily due to the safety of their equipment was it? It's my understanding that their parent company R&M Supply was acquired by Hydrofarm. I believe Hydrofarm will be keeping the CAP name and re-releasing a lot of the line under their own marketing.



Don't take my post the wrong way. I appreciate your warning and ultimately want to switch out any of these controllers being used amongst my circle of friends. Practically everyone I know running 4-8k is using some form of these "hydro-shop" lighting controllers. That's a whole lot of folks at risk if these are truly that dangerous when installed/used correctly.



thanks

FF, the fact that there have been few documented catastrophic failures of the CAP equipment is a testimonial to the reliability of modern lighting components rather than the protections that are required to be built into the controller, but are not.

All of these controllers rely on a highly-specific portion of the code that allows high-amperage feeds for warehouse lighting. In order to comply with this portion of the code, there are numerous conditions that HAVE to be met - if all of the stipulations aren't met, the code exclusion does NOT apply. The exclusion allows for feeds of up to 50a while using components that are rated for 15-20a, but only if the fixture hangs directly below the receptacle (integral luminaires only, no hoods remote from the ballast), the power cord is 18" or less long, the cord is made by the same manufacturer as the luminaire, the cord has been specifically tested and "listed" for this application by a governing authority, and the full length of the power cord is easily visible for inspection and not susceptible to damage.

I've never seen a small-sale grow where all of those conditions could possibly be met.

The X-style receptacles are an issue for several reasons other than the obvious problem of being able to plug in the wrong voltage device. They are cheap off-shore crap from no-name manufacturers because no quality manufacturer is going to build something that flagrantly breaks all of the standards of electrical safety. As such, there is little chance that the spring-tension of the contacts meets specifications, or that any of the other aspects of it's construction meet normal standards. Also, if there is a fire, one glance at them from the insurance inspector is going to void your policy.

I always prefer to use either specification-grade or commercial-grade receptacles. For our application, these receptacles are subject to being used at very near the maximum that they are rated for, and that load is carried for long periods of time. The X-receptacles are of lower quality than the 3/$1.00 junkers used in cheap spec houses.

The relays aren't that much of an issue - they should either work, or not. However, if you look in your controller, you will find that there is a good bit of #12 - #16 wire being used internally. If there is no additional fusing beyond the 30-50a feed to provide protection for these lower-rated components, then that wiring becomes the fuse (as does whatever gets plugged into it).

The vast majority of the time, if our houses were only protected by the 200a main, everything would be fine. It's only when things go ugly that you need the protection levels that have been found to be necessary over the last 100 years or so that our houses have been electrified.

 

[ParanoidNovice]

Ok, I just grabbed a bunch of stuff from lowe's. I decided to take your advice, Rives.

Here's the what I have...

240v 40a timer
240v 30a dryer cord
30a 240v breaker to feed timer
(2) 125a load centers
3-double gang exposed boxes (2 will feed the 4 lights from 4 15a breakers, and the other will be for fans etc)
5 15a breakers (4 going in 1 load center running the lights, and the other in the "grow-main" load center)
30-amp power outlet matching the dryer plug
30 amp bi-pole breaker being housed in the "grow-main" load center to feed timer and timer load center
10/3 wire which the dryer plug will be installed with
50a double-pole breaker which will feed everything being installed into existing load center
6-6-6-6 wire connected to the 50a breaker...not sure about this one. The guy at lowe's said it wasn't his department. Here is the wire http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet273
Didn't see that this was aluminum service wire until I got home with it.

1 load center ground bar kit (need one more)
25 ft of 14/2 wire for each light's plugs
I also have the punchouts, plugs, etc
15ft 10/3 wire

 

[rives]

Looks like a good start.

I'm not wild about aluminum wire. You will need some anti-oxidation compound (Petrox, Aluminox, etc) to coat the aluminum with so that it won't oxidize from oxygen exposure. You will need to make sure that whatever you connect it to/with (lugs, breakers, whatever) is rated for Al/Cu use, and correct torquing of the connection is critical. Over-tightening can be as much of a problem as under-torquing.

My preference is always for #12 over #14 wire, but as long as you stick with 15a breakers and reasonably short runs, you should be fine.