3 phase pumps, the latest thing.

[f-e]

Being high is good lol

Yes, I'm using the valves to defeat the tank heights desire to keep the flow going, after the pump switches off.

I'm currently using a powered valve like yourself. Though spring valves are perfectly adequate. You just need the right amount of spring. Goldilocks zone stuff. You stack them. Each holding off about 50cm of the tanks height. The twin pack should do it, as it's unusual to have the tanks surface a meter higher than the emitters. I would fit a third though. Any tiny bit of seepage will keep your lowest emitter just weeping. Which can lead to a bad plant position in your room, as it never dries out. Sometimes one of just two valves will fail to seat properly. Perhaps a hair in it. That's why a third would be like wear a belt, and braces. Two chances.

 

[GenghisKush]

When I first set up my system, I also had a check valve installed at the top of my upper reservoir as well as a solenoid valve just above the pump at the lower reservoir.

One day, mineral buildup at the check valve prevented the valve itself from actuating. Very frustrating, and a pain to troubleshoot.

I removed the check valve, and shortened the hose in the upper reservoir so that instead of filling the upper reservoir with water from below (bottom up), the res fills with water from above (top down). The hose supplying the upper res is now always above the level of water allowed by the spillover fitting (with about 1 cm air gap) and cannot siphon back into the lower reservoir.

In this case, for me, simpler is better. If the solenoid valve should ever fail, I don't plan on replacing it.

 

[highfidelity]

Just got my 800L/Hr 3 phase pump in yesterday. It replaced a 1/10 hp harbor freight transfer pump. This little thing is less than half the size with way more pressure at the end of my lines and it's nearly silent too versus vibrating the whole house. Thanks so much for dropping the info here about it.

 

[f-e]

Just got my 800L/Hr 3 phase pump in yesterday. It replaced a 1/10 hp harbor freight transfer pump. This little thing is less than half the size with way more pressure at the end of my lines and it's nearly silent too versus vibrating the whole house. Thanks so much for dropping the info here about it.

Are you using it externally?
That's a good review, and it's barely 10 days since you said you ordered one.

exploziv The brand is Javtop and can be found by european resellers. The prices are everywhere though. My dehu manufacturer offers a £10 JT-600 to pump out automatically. They ask £70 though. However, in their defense, they do give you 3 meters of hose with it.

I'm just installing a jt-600 12v using a 5v usb adapter to dampen it's enthusiasm. I like that you can put these on variable DC supplies to get the flow where you want it.

 

[exploziv]

you saying they can be pwm controlled? wow this sounds like exactly what i need. could this be used to irrigate using 1.4 bar drippers? I would need like 100 liters an hour rate at that pressure..
Also, I looked and I can only find them in China..

 

[highfidelity]

Are you using it externally?
That's a good review, and it's barely 10 days since you said you ordered one.

exploziv The brand is Javtop and can be found by european resellers. The prices are everywhere though. My dehu manufacturer offers a £10 JT-600 to pump out automatically. They ask £70 though. However, in their defense, they do give you 3 meters of hose with it.

I'm just installing a jt-600 12v using a 5v usb adapter to dampen it's enthusiasm. I like that you can put these on variable DC supplies to get the flow where you want it.

Bought it on ebay for $20 and the drummond its replacing was $65. I've got mine at the bottom of the res. Maybe 1.5 feet of pvc up then 2 feet or so of pipe into the tent to 2x 9 spot drip manifolds. Currently 13 plants in there and very happy with the pressure. Seems I could easily run more where I didn't feel that way before.

 

[f-e]

you saying they can be pwm controlled? wow this sounds like exactly what i need. could this be used to irrigate using 1.4 bar drippers? I would need like 100 liters an hour rate at that pressure..
Also, I looked and I can only find them in China..

No not PWM, unless it's like a hert
They have a DC voltage operating range. Generally 6-12 or 12-24 but it's useful.

1.4 Bar is an oddball figure. Octobubblers or the drippers with strong anti syphon?

You might need to step up to the dc50k 24160 as shown in this link. The first 4 minutes are dribble.. skip um.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEbRmSrshxk
Feckin things hitting the ceiling. It can deliver 240L per hour an still hold 1.4 Bar of it's 1.6 Bar maximum.

Another fella has ordered a 1.7 Bar smaller pump for his octo's I think. His results will be of great value to you.


The one in the link is almost 80 euros on eBay, if you can't buy direct https://www.ebay.com/itm/275019477058
It's only a $50 pump, so 80e is really breaking you balls

 

[kingape]

Hey @f-e !

Excellent thread!

I am going to be running 2 tables in a room with 16 octabubblers in total and 256 netafim 2lph drippers.

The octabubblers are rated at 20-60psi and have a 2gph glow.

The netafim .5gph are rated at .5 psi I think.

If I water one table at a time, that will be 8 octabubblers which are activated, so does the psi requirement add up?

How does it go?

Can you please link some info, I'd be much grateful.

I am just attaching a pic of the prototype grow room I have in mind, the green dots are the octabubblers!

 

[f-e]

Can you scrap the octobubblers? They demand pressure beyond that of a typical high pressure system. Making pump choices very limited. Take a look at post #38 for the same thing, that needs half the pressure.

To use the octo's you would need a pump that can get your pipework up to 20psi, and hold it there while delivering the flow of 16 octo's (plus the 256, which look insignificant at this point).
I don't know what the octo's deliver. 2l x 8 ? 16L x 16 heads, oddly 256L. Now 256L isn't much, but at 20psi it is. Plus 512L for the reds, 750L while still keeping that 20psi the octo's demand as an obsolete minimum. Again, 750L isn't hard if it was all 0.5 bar reds. It's that need for 1.33 bar. The biggest pump readily available of this type is 1.7 but that would soon drop as you started pulling such water volume from it. I don't think it's workable. Them octo's seem better suited to online dosing applications, where they are plumbed straight to the tap. There is no other need for designing emitters for such a high pressure category. To use pumps you could look at shurflo like things, that have greater pressure and over pressure switches in the pump head. Noisy though, and valves are failure points. I might look at well pumps with pressure relief valve to circle the excess back to the tank. It's outside the $20 stuff here though. Which is really about very quiet home grow systems that can still use pro emitters. Just not 750L of emitters that want pressure that's unusually high.

 

[kingape]

Can you scrap the octobubblers? They demand pressure beyond that of a typical high pressure system. Making pump choices very limited. Take a look at post #38 for the same thing, that needs half the pressure.

To use the octo's you would need a pump that can get your pipework up to 20psi, and hold it there while delivering the flow of 16 octo's (plus the 256, which look insignificant at this point).
I don't know what the octo's deliver. 2l x 8 ? 16L x 16 heads, oddly 256L. Now 256L isn't much, but at 20psi it is. Plus 512L for the reds, 750L while still keeping that 20psi the octo's demand as an obsolete minimum. Again, 750L isn't hard if it was all 0.5 bar reds. It's that need for 1.33 bar. The biggest pump readily available of this type is 1.7 but that would soon drop as you started pulling such water volume from it. I don't think it's workable. Them octo's seem better suited to online dosing applications, where they are plumbed straight to the tap. There is no other need for designing emitters for such a high pressure category. To use pumps you could look at shurflo like things, that have greater pressure and over pressure switches in the pump head. Noisy though, and valves are failure points. I might look at well pumps with pressure relief valve to circle the excess back to the tank. It's outside the $20 stuff here though. Which is really about very quiet home grow systems that can still use pro emitters. Just not 750L of emitters that want pressure that's unusually high.

Sorry I totally missed out the post #38.

I doubt I will be able to get my hands on the TopSpin, It's either octabubblers or just the drippers then!

Just the drippers would be a messy affair, so wanted to avoid that.

The octobubblers are 2GPH, so thats 7LPH X 8X 16 = 896L + (128x2 : drippers) = 1152LPH.

The other option is to have the 4way dripper manifold plugged in the lateral and to run 2 of them through the table!
That will just be 256LPH for the red drippers

 

[f-e]

Big shop in Spain sends the spins out globally.

I would stick with the reds. It's better than mixing emitters when it comes to carrying spares, and that 0.5 bar is about as easy to satisfy as anything can be. Though with 750L needed, I would split the load between two separate systems. It's a big grow to loose, if there was a problem. Lets be real, no pump/psu/timer lasts forever, and the cost of a loss is too great to trust just one of them. It's just a waiting game. Everything busts eventually. Double up.

 

[unnamedmike]

Im not sure if its the best option, but maybe can help you. 4 gph drippers, pump 5 phase 1249L/h

 

[kingape]

Big shop in Spain sends the spins out globally.

I would stick with the reds. It's better than mixing emitters when it comes to carrying spares, and that 0.5 bar is about as easy to satisfy as anything can be. Though with 750L needed, I would split the load between two separate systems. It's a big grow to loose, if there was a problem. Lets be real, no pump/psu/timer lasts forever, and the cost of a loss is too great to trust just one of them. It's just a waiting game. Everything busts eventually. Double up.

Thanks!

I think I will continue with the reds only!

Also that'll be 512LPH for both tables and not 750 I think!

 

[kingape]

Im not sure if its the best option, but maybe can help you. 4 gph drippers, pump 5 phase 1249L/h

Thanks!

The only difference will be I will be using this manifold https://www.dripirrigation.com/d101-4 directly on the lateral and put one drip wire with an emitter at the end on a stake per pot

 

[f-e]

Tidy solution, using the regulator into a small manifold. As long as all 4 emitters are the same height and the same length tube is used, it's going to give an even delivery. I see they also do the same manifold in a stacking type. Allowing one regulator to run 4 or 8 or even 12 emitters. As long as you can balance it. I think they do an 8L regulator, so you could push for 16 emitters at that table height.

At 512 that's 8.5L per minute. Some of the bigger one's in post #29 can provide that, at over 1 bar. This means you could use the DNL regulators. Under 2.7psi they won't pass a drip. So when the pump is off, there is no need for anti-syphon measures. Or the fear of a long table getting drips at the low end for hours as the higher pipework empties at the lowest points. A valve at the tank can't stop that emptying seen on sloped systems. As air enters the highest emitters, letting the pipework empty out the lowest ones. Even my little 16 emitter set does this. Though very little water lives in 16 bits of pipe looping higher than the emitters themselves. That is what wants out. The bit of water above them. All out the lowest ones. As I don't use the DNL emitters, just a solenoid at the tank. 1000 bits of pipe add up. There will be a really wet plant or two somewhere, unless some thought goes into it. Some people use a solenoid to open the main gallery to waste, when the supply solenoid isn't open. Two items to buy and fit though, when DNL types just work.

 

[kingape]

Tidy solution, using the regulator into a small manifold. As long as all 4 emitters are the same height and the same length tube is used, it's going to give an even delivery. I see they also do the same manifold in a stacking type. Allowing one regulator to run 4 or 8 or even 12 emitters. As long as you can balance it. I think they do an 8L regulator, so you could push for 16 emitters at that table height.

At 512 that's 8.5L per minute. Some of the bigger one's in post #29 can provide that, at over 1 bar. This means you could use the DNL regulators. Under 2.7psi they won't pass a drip. So when the pump is off, there is no need for anti-syphon measures. Or the fear of a long table getting drips at the low end for hours as the higher pipework empties at the lowest points. A valve at the tank can't stop that emptying seen on sloped systems. As air enters the highest emitters, letting the pipework empty out the lowest ones. Even my little 16 emitter set does this. Though very little water lives in 16 bits of pipe looping higher than the emitters themselves. That is what wants out. The bit of water above them. All out the lowest ones. As I don't use the DNL emitters, just a solenoid at the tank. 1000 bits of pipe add up. There will be a really wet plant or two somewhere, unless some thought goes into it. Some people use a solenoid to open the main gallery to waste, when the supply solenoid isn't open. Two items to buy and fit though, when DNL types just work.

I don't think the regulators are rated for volume, but to be safe, I'm just going to stick with 4 from one.

By DNL, I assume you're meaning Pressure Compensated?

I might also stagger the watering of the tables so the requirement will come down to 256lph.

I agree with your point about emptying the main line, how will the solenoid work though?
Since the PVC is in a looped manifold and there is no slope to let the water naturally flow out through.

 

[f-e]

https://www.netafim.com/4929d3/globalassets/products/drippers-and-dripperlines/pc-online/new-product-sheets/pc-dripper-product-sheet.pdf

They seem to of renamed the DNL (does not leak) to CNL (can not leak?) But it's the PC-LCNL of interest.
PC-LCNL needs breaking down a bit..
PC is pressure compensating. With anything from a bar to 3 or 4 bar in the main line, they still give the same rated output. They are usually 2L 4L or 8L rated.
The CNL bit is related to an opening pressure. This might be quite low, such as the Low-CNL or LCNL. Or it could be quite high, like the High-CNL or HCNL.
I think the LCNL PC bits could be useful. At pump shut off, they stop dripping as they need some pressure (2.8psi?) to open. At pump switch on, the water is already at the valve, not drained away. There is no time spent clearing air from the lines.

If you don't use the CNL one's you won't need as much pressure from you pump. This makes pump choice easier. The link shows them giving a steady output from 0.5 bar upwards. The CNL ones need a bar or more to regulate properly. This makes pump choice harder, but with the 0.5 bar ones you would need some anti siphon control. Most people just fit a solenoid near the pump. With a level floor there isn't a huge amount of pipework higher than the lowest emitter. Here fertigation frequency is an issue. If there is dripping for an hour, that's ok if it's a daily feed. If in coco trying to feed every 2 hours, then dripping at the low pots for an hour is very wet. Mix composition may get away with it.

Note: The LCNL has a 0.15 bar opening pressure. That is 1.5 meters of head. They won't siphon unless the tanks surface is 1.5m higher than the emitters.
The HCNL will hold back a 3 meter head. If your tank is upstairs then neither will stop the siphon. A solenoid valve would still be needed.
Alternately a tank downstairs needs no siphon protection.

 

[kingape]

https://www.netafim.com/4929d3/globalassets/products/drippers-and-dripperlines/pc-online/new-product-sheets/pc-dripper-product-sheet.pdf

They seem to of renamed the DNL (does not leak) to CNL (can not leak?) But it's the PC-LCNL of interest.
PC-LCNL needs breaking down a bit..
PC is pressure compensating. With anything from a bar to 3 or 4 bar in the main line, they still give the same rated output. They are usually 2L 4L or 8L rated.
The CNL bit is related to an opening pressure. This might be quite low, such as the Low-CNL or LCNL. Or it could be quite high, like the High-CNL or HCNL.
I think the LCNL PC bits could be useful. At pump shut off, they stop dripping as they need some pressure (2.8psi?) to open. At pump switch on, the water is already at the valve, not drained away. There is no time spent clearing air from the lines.

If you don't use the CNL one's you won't need as much pressure from you pump. This makes pump choice easier. The link shows them giving a steady output from 0.5 bar upwards. The CNL ones need a bar or more to regulate properly. This makes pump choice harder, but with the 0.5 bar ones you would need some anti siphon control. Most people just fit a solenoid near the pump. With a level floor there isn't a huge amount of pipework higher than the lowest emitter. Here fertigation frequency is an issue. If there is dripping for an hour, that's ok if it's a daily feed. If in coco trying to feed every 2 hours, then dripping at the low pots for an hour is very wet. Mix composition may get away with it.

Note: The LCNL has a 0.15 bar opening pressure. That is 1.5 meters of head. They won't siphon unless the tanks surface is 1.5m higher than the emitters.
The HCNL will hold back a 3 meter head. If your tank is upstairs then neither will stop the siphon. A solenoid valve would still be needed.
Alternately a tank downstairs needs no siphon protection.

Thank you for explaining that!

I have the LCNL PC drippers, since the tank will be on the same floor under the table, it won't be an issue.
For the anti siphon, yes I will be using a spring valve just to be safe

I think my previous post did not make my query clear.

After watering, how do I remove the water already there in the pipe but not in the emitter?

 

[f-e]

Might be me not being clear

Ideally, you would use the CNL and keep a bit of head above them. Then every part has a desire to leak out, but can't because of them CNL. So the whole thing is primed for action.

Whow. I just lost 10 minutes to the tribe called quest. Still having involuntary head sways. I might slip away again. Somebody pass the rizla.

With your tank below, and a simple non return, there is no point water can get out. So no air ingress. It stays primed.

All this talk is about water in the main pipes really. The little regs physically push into it. What's in the 4 little pipes... Oh, I got tribed again. The 4 little pipes will be a branch system. Small as it is, them 4 are isolated when the pumps off. No... no I'm stoned. It's right, but so little water it's a non starter. Might be interesting if each was in one of 4 individual pots, but all 4 in one pot.. whatever. If one per pot though, you could give the biggest drinker the lowest emitter. So the 4 pipe branch/system drains through it. How skinny is the pipe? My smallest is 5mm I think, but some micro line is.. micro.



So you have 256 2L LCNL's
You need 512L at 1 bar/10m
What's that 24v 17m one saying? 1200L I think. It's touch and go if that will provide 512L and still manage a bar.
As a top up: it's 17M of pressure with our thumb over the hose blasting it out. If we let 512L out, it might be dipping below 10psi. Oh shit, tank under. You have some head lost getting water up to the emitters. Half meter? 700cm? That's a big tank. Paddling pool?

A couple will do it... You could screw them together, but I would run two systems from two timers. Maybe different circuits from the fuse box.

I'm too stoned to make any progress right now lol

 

[f-e]

Ok.. big boys toys.
The dc60g should provide 1320L at 1 bar
Graph: https://www.bldcpump.com/product/dc60g/
Possible supplier: https://www.amazon.com/Shysky-Tech-...?keywords=Shysky+Tech&qid=1651115657&sr=8-140

Same guy has the $65 DC50e
Graph: https://www.bldcpump.com/product/dc50e/
Link: https://www.amazon.com/Shysky-Tech-...9?keywords=Shysky+Tech&qid=1651114898&sr=8-49
That falls about 35L short at 480L while still providing a bar.

These are not common consumer sizes. Few sell, so pricing is high. Still competitive, but at 100$ there are other options opening up. The sureflow/saniflow/seaflow style positive displacement pumps might suit you better. It's a lot more noise and less reliability. They just plug in though, and $100 gets a reasonable one. I can't choose one though, as I can't find a supplier that gives out the graphs. The one Mike showed might do a table. The smaller one won't at $100