25% more yield with a diffused LED ?

[GoatCheese]

Hey goat cheese, you are free to believe whatever you wish but don't go around and preach it as the truth.
Better reading skills are required for better understanding, from the way you reacted to my comment I can only see you have trouble understanding basic physics and also basic communication skills and especially kindness and will to learn.
Whatever.
Your explanations are still wrong no matter how cocky your responses get...and for the record...I really teach this stuff and make experiments for a living.
Think what you wish goat cheese, when you will be willing to learn and discuss physics, give me a shout, until then I will chuckle at this kind of "cute and silly" interpretations of how things work... Nothing wrong with having an opinion but don't try selling it to me as truth. Silly.

Cheers

Blaah, blaah..

Expert on natural science and physics but can’t make your COBs work? How come?

You could have explained to me how i’m wrong when you typed this but you didn’t, which just shows you don’t know what you’re talking about - cause you can’t write a proper reply..

You write sarcastic shit all the time, Koon, but when i give attitude back to you, you start complaining like an upset teenager. It’s ridiculous when sarcastic people start complaining how others have bad manners. What a joke.

..see i don’t mind shit talking if someone gives me shitty attitude. I don’t start bitchin like a child about poor manners. How come you can dish it out but can’t take any yourself?
If people talk to me or even debate me in normal civilized fashion, so will i. Start giving me shit for no reason and i will echo that back to you. Sound fair?


“Diffuse sky radiation is solar radiation reaching the Earth's surface after having been scattered from the direct solar beam by molecules or particulates in the atmosphere. Also called sky radiation, the determinative process for changing the colors of the sky. Approximately 23% of direct incident radiation of total sunlight is removed from the direct solar beam by scattering into the atmosphere; of this amount (of incident radiation) about two-thirds ultimately reaches the earth as photon diffused skylight radiation. “

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffuse_sky_radiation

 

[GoatCheese]

Unless your light source emits a collimated beam (like a laser pointer would), it will spread out even in a vacuum with no atmospheric gases working as diffusers, and become less intense as it spreads out.

Inverse-square law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Some led lights come with laser warning stickers, like the Viparspectra P600 i bought for my mom a while ago.

Photons travel on ‘luminiferous ether’ in space/vacuum, not on atomic matter like atmospheric gasses.

 

[Kimes]

All this discussion is very interesting and piques my curiousity to try to learn about light and all, but still would love to hear any firsthand experiences whether diffusing leds helped a grow, had no influence whatsoever etc. Raising the light/dimming seems to be common suggestion on forums, reddit etc. to quickly remedy light intensity related issues... Personally I feel that plants do better with mildly diffused light, but it is just my feeling... Thanking all for the polite approach in discussion..

 

[Koondense]

GoatCheese,
interesting that just a negative remark about your "knowledge" can spark such despicable and useless attitude.
What you say is pure nonsense but seems you can't even read it again and admit it's wrong.
Look again your statement:

And in your next post:

It's CLEAR you were talking about the light between the grow light and the canopy. Read that again loud. Repeat, and again.

One fuckin dumbo.

Or maybe it's time you go sleep a bit, it helps with the attitude.

 

[Ca++]

Unless your light source emits a collimated beam (like a laser pointer would), it will spread out even in a vacuum with no atmospheric gases working as diffusers, and become less intense as it spreads out.

Inverse-square law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The laser is a good tool for looking at atmospheric diffusion. We have all played with one. Sometimes we see a bit of dust pass through the beam, as the beam illuminates it. The beam stays pretty much unaffected. We might not see this so easily when looking at light travel from our lights to our plants. The same applies though.

It's interesting that the entire atmosphere effects 25% of the light coming from the sun. If we portion this down to the distance our light travels from the lamps to the plant, very little is going to happen. Even that laser over the distance we can see, shows no real diffusion when compared to the diffuser on a domestic lamp.


It's a long time since a saw a prismatic flo fitting in a skip. Nearly all date back to the days when smoking in the office was mandatory. A 600x600 must be available though..

Yup. 10$ at most electrical outlets, or suspended ceiling tile supply companies.

 

[Koondense]

All this discussion is very interesting and piques my curiousity to try to learn about light and all, but still would love to hear any firsthand experiences whether diffusing leds helped a grow, had no influence whatsoever etc. Raising the light/dimming seems to be common suggestion on forums, reddit etc. to quickly remedy light intensity related issues... Personally I feel that plants do better with mildly diffused light, but it is just my feeling... Thanking all for the polite approach in discussion..

Yeah, sorry Kimes for the bad vibes, let's focus on the point.

So the logic goes...
Direct and diffuse lightning are opposite in terms of direction and consequentially diffusion.
It basically means the point light source's emitted light will decrease with distance by inverse square law. This also means that beside the light will decrease exponentially also the shadows will get bigger with distance.
With diffuse lightning, the shadows will be much less "shady" but the light intensity will be lower on every point in space. The overall useful umol/J will be reduced.

There's a catch of course. More of them.
If you have a plant which prefers less light, it seems the diffusor might be beneficial.
But is it maybe better(meaning higher umol/J) to have multiple point light sources to improve the plant parts exposition to light?

I think it's better, that's why I use cobs(for 7th year now) and to me they work excellent(of course not perfect). They need to be understood, just as any other indoor light system.
Some pics

Karma A5 S1

Ace Thai x Panama

Ace Oaxaca x Panama

 

[goingrey]

Photons travel on ‘luminiferous ether’ in space/vacuum, not on atomic matter like atmospheric gasses.

Maybe yes, maybe no. If you can prove it you will win the Nobel Prize.

 

[Northern Man]

Diffused LED. Shading or light direction? Direct or indirect? I don't have a lot to add, but my two cents.

https://scynceled.com/why-optics-matter/ I only want to bring another LED light concept to the discussion, LED Optics.

Does it diffuse light with optic lens? Or directs it? Both?
Is it loosing energy through the optic lens? Or adding more?
Better side light penetration or distribution? Less overall top coverage?
Are you getting more light or more area?

Is it like a magnifying glass? Ok, that's a stretch, lol...

I think as with any type of LED light, "adjustment" to your growing needs, should always be part of the equation. A tent, 10x10 room or 100x100 room. Each one has a "better or best" type available on the market today.


Here's an old concept that might be worth looking at again, or not, a water lens.
For cool temps and or diffused light?...


25% more yield?
My opinion is, "adjustment" to your growing needs, should always be part of the equation to your best success!
Adjustment = Environment x growing method x LED light type x given area.
If your gaining 25% on a single change, an assessment for "the equation" should be looked at more closely.

 

[Sampas92]

In all my newbiness and just because i dont give a fuck and feel like it..
Using sills with 4k at the same distance that 27k and 65k the same plant looks different under each of them..while the 27k would bleach it, the 4k would be a more healthy green kinda slightly bleach and at 65k it would look like it was missing N or Fe.
I remember i added the difuser on the 65k and see more blue everywhere, but i had to make it close.

I remember when cobs appear that people mention the way leds emit light that makes the girls more compact, further or closer, no matter the spectrum and then thw trend of lens came.

Dr. Bugbee said green and red travels deep in the leaf and passes it, and indeed i saw better growth between the bush with just 4k sils wich btw could be pushed harder with them, maybe not so much resin with the 65k or so bulkier like 27k but a mid term and i liked it.

Running the Fce3000 from mars and getting tops at 1300ppfd on coco with salts, i think its all a matter of the ratio between the different wavelegnts.

Would be nice to see a single cob with a balanced spectrum, maybe they would be bushy and not bleached.

Again, bugbee was able to grow seedlings since sprout at high ppfd but all the other parameters were in check with that high ppfd, but i feel he wouldnt balanced the light ratios.

Maybe different feed requirements to the different spectrums

Dunno i let you pros find out and just continue reading all of it.

But in my mind its not logical to diffuse things when people manage by food and other parameters, but thats me in all my newbiness knowing squat.

Peace

 

[GoatCheese]

You guys seem to only think about it as light issue only, without the heat radiation part taken into account.

This is whole idea what i have been saying about beam hotspots -That they are heating up the plant tissue. = Concentrated beams of photons HEAT UP the plant tissue, dehydrating it. ..it’s not just “cold light” it’s HEATING UP the tissue, isn’t it? Atleast that’s what happening to my plants. = Photons also act as heat carriers.

..if someone doesn’t wanna get it, fine with me. I said all of this pages ago already, i’m repeating myself.

I’m not gonna go on about this anymore. There’s no point of repeating myself. If some of you ..you know who i’m talking about - can’t wrap your heads around the real world and toast your plants cause you’d rather stare at math-physics book someone else wrote or what ever, then go a head.



About the atmospheric light diffusion effect – SUN vs Koon’s COBs

.. as i already wrote, i know it isn’t huge but to claim these gasses do not diffuse light at all, is just wrong.

And the whole point of this is to understand that THE PHOTONS OUT OF YOUR LEDS HIT MOLECULES OF THE ATMOSPHERIC GASSES, WHICH WHEN ABSORBING ENERGY (ALSO HEAT )FROM THESE PHOTONS RELEASE PHOTONS ATTACHED TO THESE MOLECULES/SUBSTANCE- creating sort of secondary radiation which i’d imagine is also cooler in temperature.

You also have to take in account that your multi-bar Mars-or- whatever-COBs aren’t the Sun. So what the fukk are we talking about here?

Your grow leds won’t shoot out neutrinos like the sun does- or Primary Solar Rays; your leds also won’t create gravity fields to make your whole grow tent to revolve around it with a 23,5-ish degree axis tilt and drag the rest of the solar system along with as well.

The talk/comparison- the Sun vs your COBs - is rather pointless, imo. But do continue, Koon. You just can’t get the essence of this thing, can you, Dumbo.

::::

::::

Yea, i just got some 35mm wide stuff that was sold as diffuser material – 93% light transmittance, iirc - but it looks like clear plastic - can take 100 C degree heat, thou. Under 1mm thickness 0,8mm was it but it’s still fairly stiff.

..i don’t know when i get any on my lights. I prolly have to get some more nuts and washers so i can get it under the strips on my veg- light LM301H Sammies. If have material left over i’m gonna hack something out of it to try under the Cree COB in my veg cab just to see what kind of effect it has on the COB light ..it already has a 120 degree lens on it.

Keep on burning, boys ..i know you will, Koon.

 

[GoatCheese]

To me it’s strange when people are trying to fix a light-source issue by giving their plants stronger NPK feed, or more nitrogen to grow greener plants when their leds are yellowing their plants. See what i mean?

Nitrogen deficiency starts from the lower part of the plant not from the top, so led-bleaching isn’t a nitrogen/NPK feed issue. It’s leds dehydrating plant tissue-issue – your yellowing plants aren’t running out of NPK food.

Little extra CalMag and/or Epsom salts do help, but extra NPK feed isn’t the answer, too much nitrogen will only make your weed smoke harshly.

 

[GoatCheese]

GoatCheese,
interesting that just a negative remark about your "knowledge" can spark such despicable and useless attitude.
What you say is pure nonsense but seems you can't even read it again and admit it's wrong.
Look again your statement:
View attachment 18725629
And in your next post:
View attachment 18725630

It's CLEAR you were talking about the light between the grow light and the canopy. Read that again loud. Repeat, and again.

One fuckin dumbo.

Or maybe it's time you go sleep a bit, it helps with the attitude.

LOL
Good to have it with a red underline.

Are you really making a public claim now..
..that planet Earth’s atmosphere does not exist in your grow room?

Seriously?

Maybe it’s time for you to end this convo, cause you’re breaking down, bro. Take a nap.

 

[Koondense]

...
..that planet Earth’s atmosphere does not exist in your grow room?

Seriously?

Dude,
seriously?

 

[Sampas92]

To me it’s strange when people are trying to fix a light-source issue by giving their plants stronger NPK feed, or more nitrogen to grow greener plants when their leds are yellowing their plants. See what i mean?

Nitrogen deficiency starts from the lower part of the plant not from the top, so led-bleaching isn’t a nitrogen/NPK feed issue. It’s leds dehydrating plant tissue-issue – your yellowing plants aren’t running out of NPK food.

Little extra CalMag and/or Epsom salts do help, but extra NPK feed isn’t the answer, too much nitrogen will only make your weed smoke harshly.

@GoatCheese in all my newbiness, the other day i read that K is responsible for water flow inside the plant ence watery fruits need it higher.
If they are getting dehydrated by the leds, should K help it? Not talking about N or Ca or whatever, just K.
When i say in all my newbiness is because im a newb indeed as you can see, but a curious newb

Peace

 

[GoatCheese]

If you stick your head in between your plants and your leds and you can breath there.. ...dig it?

 

[Sampas92]

If you stick your head in between your plants and your leds and you can breath there.. ...dig it?

Kinda dig it..
So the problem is an excess of x photon or an imbalance of them all?
Thing is i think i get the heat radiation, making them sweat more and dehydrating them (?), but how about hid's and them heating the plants even more than leds at lower ppfd?

 

[GoatCheese]

@GoatCheese in all my newbiness, the other day i read that K is responsible for water flow inside the plant ence watery fruits need it higher.
If they are getting dehydrated by the leds, should K help it? Not talking about N or Ca or whatever, just K.
When i say in all my newbiness is because im a newb indeed as you can see, but a curious newb

Peace

I said i don’t think the bleaching/dry leaves issue we have with leds is a NPK issue, so you’re asking the wrong person.

But what i’ve seen, my plants don’t need any different NPK feed compared to when i had a 250w HPS light, all i do different is give them calmag and epsoms.

I change the NPK profile that my plants get thru out their bloom cycle and i see no difference how the plants behave under my led lights = More N and K in early bloom – more P and K in mid to late bloom while N levels go down towards the end.

If i have too low RH% and temps or my leds/COBs are too close to the plants or the watts are too much for my plants to handle, they suffer just the same no matter what the NPK profile has been.

N and K sure has to do with tissue/cell growth but i use BioBizz nutes and i haven’t ran into any nute issues with them in a decade, and i don’t even use their feed recommendations but do my own mixes. This is my personal experience but i don’t think the led bleaching issue is NPK related.


Plants do better in hydro/coco under modern white leds cause they have more water in the plant tissue, compared to plants growing in potting soil, and this points it out that it’s a dehydration/heat stress issue, not a NPK feed issue.

Grow the same cutting side by side in coco and in potting soil with the same nutes and feed strength and you will see that you can keep the coco plant much closer to the leds without it being damaged/dehydrated compared to the soil-plant which has less water in the plant tissue.

I have an auto-plant in my veg cab in coco atm. - hand watered with Bio Bizz nutes – and it’s much happier under my Cree cob compared to the rest of the plants that are all in potting soil. I can keep it much closer to the light with out it showing any signs of damage. Same veg nutes so far as the soil plants get, same calmag, every thing is the same but the coco plant is look much better cause it has more water in it’s system.

-

-

These diffuser materials could help with the heat radiation part abit i think. I’m quite interested in seeing how the stuff i got behaves when it comes to acting as a heat shield.

 

[GoatCheese]

Kinda dig it..
So the problem is an excess of x photon or an imbalance of them all?
Thing is i think i get the heat radiation, making them sweat more and dehydrating them (?), but how about hid's and them heating the plants even more than leds at lower ppfd?

The light beams are very concentrated and heat up the plant tissue via photons (act also as heat radiation carriers) of these led beam hotspots.
HPS and MH light isn't nearly as concentrated as modern white leds and the heat radiation doesn't come in similar hotspot-beams as it does with led lights.

 

[Koondense]

A simple question/scenario, Goat Cheese.
Take a glass and walk to the ocean coast. Take some water from the ocean in the glass.
Look through the water in the glass.
Now look through the ocean.
Same view?

Do you get the point?

Cheers

 

[Sampas92]

I said i don’t think the bleaching/dry leaves issue we have with leds is a NPK issue, so you’re asking the wrong person.

But what i’ve seen, my plants don’t need any different NPK feed compared to when i had a 250w HPS light, all i do different is give them calmag and epsoms.

I change the NPK profile that my plants get thru out their bloom cycle and i see no difference how the plants behave under my led lights = More N and K in early bloom – more P and K in mid to late bloom while N levels go down towards the end.

If i have too low RH% and temps or my leds/COBs are too close to the plants or the watts are too much for my plants to handle, they suffer just the same no matter what the NPK profile has been.

N and K sure has to do with tissue/cell growth but i use BioBizz nutes and i haven’t ran into any nute issues with them in a decade, and i don’t even use their feed recommendations but do my own mixes. This is my personal experience but i don’t think the led bleaching issue is NPK related.


Plants do better in hydro/coco under modern white leds cause they have more water in the plant tissue, compared to plants growing in potting soil, and this points it out that it’s a dehydration/heat stress issue, not a NPK feed issue.

Grow the same cutting side by side in coco and in potting soil with the same nutes and feed strength and you will see that you can keep the coco plant much closer to the leds without it being damaged/dehydrated compared to the soil-plant which has less water in the plant tissue.

I have an auto-plant in my veg cab in coco atm. - hand watered with Bio Bizz nutes – and it’s much happier under my Cree cob compared to the rest of the plants that are all in potting soil. I can keep it much closer to the light with out it showing any signs of damage. Same veg nutes so far as the soil plants get, same calmag, every thing is the same but the coco plant is look much better cause it has more water in it’s system.

-

-

These diffuser materials could help with the heat radiation part abit i think. I’m quite interested in seeing how the stuff i got behaves when it comes to acting as a heat shield.

By adding calmag and epsoms didnt the whole npk profile change due to the ratios between the elements?
I mean most of calmag have N and some also Fe, i can understand how N P and K isnt the same as Ca and Mg but since us adding them the ratios are different so the profile should be different? Did the question is stil wrong?
Some say B help moves Ca in the plant, did you ever tried it? I ask even tho you use Biobizz because it should work the same.

Also since the the temp and rh affects the vpd and it should be in balance with the lights and also the nutrients i think its normal they suffer, the parameters are wack for what they need.

Again, i dunno what leds Dr. Bugbee did is trials with healthy growing seedlings with high ppfd like flowering, but he did said all the parameters should be in check with that, lower ppfd and same parameters as high ppfd i guess they suffer and the other way around so in my newb curious mind we are missing just the balance for what they need at the different spectrums, either food, vpd, co2, air exchange etc etc..

Any opinions?
Again dont take me as a smart ass, i dunno squat, just curious learbing from all of you.

Peace