2024 State of the genepool discussion.

[TrifektaSeeds]

clones are selected not made

Elites are made clones.

How do you think elite clones are created ? Besides those that accidentally pop...

You can make a stable clone
You can cross a potent with taste, after that with smell, whatever, slowly creating the clone you aspire to.

That only means you made a clone that carries the traits you selected

That what it means to make a clone or a strain.

and imho by the a”breeders”has a stable variety..its stable mediocrity

The seeds are stable mediocrity, the clones are elite and just fine (if we believe them)
Most of those clones are just not breed true specimens
They flower true, that's why they are elite smoke, not elite donors or breeders
Like I said before, there's a huge difference in the clone you use for smoking (your elite clone) to the clone you'll end up making seeds from, although you try to reach 1:1 in your breeding purposes, they are different clones at the end.

selfed clones are more to the point imho but aren’t exactly saving the gene pool lol

Yes they are better then any cross with a male or fem that's fosure, if you trying to keep it within that genetic variation at least, but every clone has its false/true breeding to an extant
Elites are called that way because of the smoke, not how they breed
So more stabilization is required, no matter how elite your cut is.

only real way to keep the/" gold "is keep the original male and female

or self that glory cut..

its just my view..

Hmm only so far, as if they are far from breeding true the chances you'll get something like the P1 is very very far, like we said, 1:100,000 if your lucky or 1:1,000,000 if your not

People don't understand how much plant count matters, it's impossible to breed true the polyhybrids of today with low plant counts
I mean you can but it will take forever !
If you only have 50 to choose from and each cycle you only choosing the trait you want (stabilizing) or even worse not finding even the one trait you most want that will set you back 4 months easy.
Oppose to high numbers, where you select from 1000 plants and narrow down your gene pool fast and effective.

 

[Brother Nature]

I’ve noticed the resin with LED grown buds tend to be more sandy even on old genetics. In my last run I had a Skunk with sandy resin. I don’t know if it is due to her genetics or the light or a mix of both. I will try to grow the same cut under LED and HPS to see how the resin glands are under different light sources.

I had an interesting experience with an older bubblegum cut I ran under both CMH and led recently too. The resin profiles weren't really different, it was kinda sandy/sticky under both lights, but the plant reacted very differently in both environments. The resin started showing weeks earlier under the LED's and was much more dense through the grow, but the LED plants developed a major potassium deficiency that the CMH plants didn't get. The LED plants still ended up looking more desirable in the end, though are still drying so I'm not sure of the difference in final product quality. I ran another zkittles cross in both environments, same soil, good environmental factors for each run and it had no difference in either environment.

Makes me stoned wonder if the older, more desirable strains from the "better" days aren't as responsive to newer growth methods as those breeding parameters weren't around during those selections so could be contributing to them not being used as often these days.

 

[numberguy]

Those just magically appeared ?

No magic involved just the best you can procure what ever you consider the best.

The right seeds are the seeds people selected from thousands of plants in order to speed up the selection process

How do you select from thousands of plants? just by looks and smell? I can only smoke test one a day thats years to test just the females and how are you testing 500 males before they drop pollen, to find the ones that pass on the high? Females can be tested after being seeded but not the males, others have claimed by progeny testing, that would take decades of time.

Because instead of selecting for 1 trait at a time from a low population, you select for 2-3-4 traits from a large pool
I only select for one trait, the high, anything else can be added or selected for later.

Yes, only in the start, after that if you wanna make seeds outta it you need to breed in order to get to your original clone in seed form
I have the original clone so I dont need it in seed form, I am going to breed it to the seeds it came from or another strain to make hybreds

Not the seeds you hunt as they are not on the same level until you make them so.
Some of the seeds made from the original clone should be the same or better than the original. So now I can find a new clone to either continue inbreeding or if a hybred for production.

You have no idea what you are talking about really
If you understand my words, then I do have some idea of what I speak.
Sorry to messed up the reply I didnt want to start over.

 

[numberguy]

You can get those from carnivals

Not where I am from, they went after reproductions of an old flag at our fairs, carnivals.

 

[dogzter]

During this thousand plant selection is that supposed to happen all at once a plant a day for years blind draw......... what?
Who trimmed these plants?

 

[kro-magnon]

I had an interesting experience with an older bubblegum cut I ran under both CMH and led recently too. The resin profiles weren't really different, it was kinda sandy/sticky under both lights, but the plant reacted very differently in both environments. The resin started showing weeks earlier under the LED's and was much more dense through the grow, but the LED plants developed a major potassium deficiency that the CMH plants didn't get. The LED plants still ended up looking more desirable in the end, though are still drying so I'm not sure of the difference in final product quality. I ran another zkittles cross in both environments, same soil, good environmental factors for each run and it had no difference in either environment.

Makes me stoned wonder if the older, more desirable strains from the "better" days aren't as responsive to newer growth methods as those breeding parameters weren't around during those selections so could be contributing to them not being used as often these days.

The older genetics respond as good as recent ones to my LED, every growers have a different set up and climate, if the plants are happy it will be visible in the finished products.
The cannabis market has always had some trends, in the 90's the Skunk was ubiquitous, today it's the Cookie thankfully there is other genetics, you can access the whole spectrum of cannabis genetic pretty easily today.

 

[mexcurandero420]

Huge fields were grown back in the 80s. We dont see this kind of scale today. Without growing on this scale the odds of finding any unique chemotypes are near impossible. I think the largest today is not more than 10 acres?. Operation Condor represented the first war on drugs in Mexican history that was backed and urged by the United States. The operation launched in 1977 by Mexican government and focused on the internal enemy – the goal of this Operation was to wipe out the actors involved in the illegal drug industry.

MEXICO CITY - Soldiers have found the largest marijuana plantation ever detected in Mexico, a huge field covering almost 300 acres, the Defense Department said Thursday.
The plantation is four times larger than the previous record discovery, at a ranch in northern Chihuahua state in 1984.

The pot plants were sheltered under black screen-cloth in a huge square on the floor of the Baja California desert, more than 150 miles south of Tijuana.

Army Gen. Alfonso Duarte said the screening, often used by regular farmers to protect crops from the sun, made it difficult to detect from the air what was growing underneath.

It was only when soldiers on the ground reached the isolated area Tuesday that they found thousands of pot plants as tall as 2 1/2 yards. The average height of the plants was about 1 1/2 yards. Duarte said they were not ready for harvest.

 

[Brother Nature]

The older genetics respond as good as recent ones to my LED, every growers have a different set up and climate, if the plants are happy it will be visible in the finished products.
The cannabis market has always had some trends, in the 90's the Skunk was ubiquitous, today it's the Cookie thankfully there is other genetics, you can access the whole spectrum of cannabis genetic pretty easily today.

I appreciate the input, but that wasn’t really the point of what I was posting.

 

[numberguy]

I had an interesting experience with an older bubblegum cut I ran under both CMH and led recently too. The resin profiles weren't really different, it was kinda sandy/sticky under both lights, but the plant reacted very differently in both environments. The resin started showing weeks earlier under the LED's and was much more dense through the grow, but the LED plants developed a major potassium deficiency that the CMH plants didn't get. The LED plants still ended up looking more desirable in the end, though are still drying so I'm not sure of the difference in final product quality. I ran another zkittles cross in both environments, same soil, good environmental factors for each run and it had no difference in either environment.

Makes me stoned wonder if the older, more desirable strains from the "better" days aren't as responsive to newer growth methods as those breeding parameters weren't around during those selections so could be contributing to them not being used as often these days.

Good example of the point I was trying to make, the environment affects the genetics of the seeds made, not just how the plants may vary, intentionally or unintentionally. Even with newer genetics, I could not make buds that look like the newer varieties so conversely someone else can not make the same buds or seeds as I do in there environment. The good news is that the places where the best old genetics were made still exist and were recorded in the names they carried, the methods may or may not be remembered. I would love to walk by thousands of plants looking for uniqueness.

 

[kro-magnon]

I appreciate the input, but that wasn’t really the point of what I was posting.

What’s your point exactly then?
What older genetics and breeding parameters are you taking about?
What I meant was breeding and growing environments have always been different except when the seeds were done by farmers who were planning to use them for their next season.

 

[ramse]

. There is no difference in a cut to smoke and one for seeds, the best cut is used for both.

unfortunately for many "breeders" it is like this... it doesn't surprise me... I remember the perplexed users already at the time on the mr nice forum, when Shanti spoke of plants for flower/smoke (coffe cut) and plant for seeds

 

[numberguy]

unfortunately for many "breeders" it is like this... it doesn't surprise me... I remember the perplexed users already at the time on the mr nice forum, when Shanti spoke of plants for flower/smoke (coffe cut) and plant for seeds

Sounds deceptive to me. Oh I'd like some seeds of that stuff I smoked and then you get seeds that were not even made from that plant. I guess that goes along with a new name for every plant grown, and seeds made outside in hemp growing areas and all the other non traditional breeding practices I have heard about. I suppose if the receiver is aware it is ok.

 

[Hammerhead]

I dont know anyone that doesn't make their seeds from the best plants found. I also know some that make seeds from open pollination to preserve the gene pool.

 

[Hiddenjems]

That's not what he's meaning, greasy is the type of resin a plant produces, if you've come across a plant with a greasy resin profile you'll know exactly what he's talking about. In my experience greasy plants are still around, but I only ever come across them in older genetics, most of the newer stuff ends to be more sandy, prefer the greasy ones for hash production too..

Yes. Some plants make a dry powdery kief, others are just gobs of sticky resin, even when dried so much the plant material is crispy.

 

[TrifektaSeeds]

You start from the clone you smoked, not other clone, you just end up with another clone that hold the same traits as your elite starting clone, but the new clone also has a very tight gene pool behind it from your breeding, so you make seeds outta it to represent the work you did.
If you select good enough, in enough generations, you will "build" the exect clone you have, only with locked in traits that pass on consistently to the offsprings.

No one claims that the first S1 can't produce a similar or even better plant, but we are talking about odds here.
Will it take 5 seeds to produce almost similar or satisfying plants or 500 ?

Why do you think Tony Green BX5 the GB ?
Why he just didn't S1 the original clone he holds ?
Why backcross it 5 times ? And what does he backcross with ? The new refined selection of each generation ofcourse, making the gene pool very tight to the traits he wants.

And if reg seeds are better, why did he S1 those BX5 instead of using "elite" male lol

Read the description about the plants that come out of this S1... Very stable uniform plants... But how can that be ??
Like I said before, you only S1 the clone you ended up that you tested and passes on the traits you selected according to the elite you started with or any plant for that matter or traits
That's for S1

If you need to improve your starting clone
You cross and hunt and choose the one that's represent the 2 lines the best
If it's good enough you S1 it and repeat until the seeds from your selections stabilize to your selected traits.

 

[TrifektaSeeds]

unfortunately for many "breeders" it is like this... it doesn't surprise me... I remember the perplexed users already at the time on the mr nice forum, when Shanti spoke of plants for flower/smoke (coffe cut) and plant for seeds

When you think about the logic behind it, it tends to screw with your mind
Like some over here said, S1 from the elite are the closest you'll get already, what's there to stabilize ?
Lack of knowledge in breeding is so great among those so called seed makers
I just don't understand how they are not figuring it out when they grow S1 seeds and get bunk not even remotely close to elite
Baffling

Any plant that you want to pass the traits he holds consistently need to go cycles of choosing just those traits
Some plants will not stabilize to 100% 1:1, or it will but it will take a long time and a lot of selection through generations.

 

[numberguy]

You start from the clone you smoked,

If you need to improve your starting clone
You cross and hunt and choose the one that's represent the 2 lines the best
If it's good enough you S1 it and repeat until the seeds from your selections stabilize to your selected traits.

Ok it took a while, I am all for alternate ways of realizing goals. Looks like a very specific way to get where you want to be with S'es something I know nothing about. Broad statements and generalizations can uncover exceptions.

 

[TrifektaSeeds]

What do you mean a specific way ? Or alternative way ?
Why you keep beating around the bush lol
There's no other way to stabilize plants
Either you Self to stabilize or you cross to improve.
Crosses, no matter how true breed the starting P1, are always a mystery until you grow them and see if your selections segregate like you want.
If they do, that cross is considered stable and you have no need to stabilize it through selfing the winner, as the cross pump all sorts of keepers and you want varieties.
Breeding is very goal driven, if you don't set goals you can't move ahead as your end result will dictate your starting point.

 

[TrifektaSeeds]

If you need to improve your starting clone
You cross and hunt and choose the one that's represent the 2 lines the best
If it's good enough you S1 it and repeat until the seeds from your selections stabilize to your selected traits.

I'll give you an example
If I have a killer potency plant, and killer tasting plant, I cross them for F1
Now I grow the seeds, basically looking for the best plant that represents both P1 to my liking. let's say I found only ones with high potency
Now I can now either keep growing the F1 seeds hoping that I get a good tasting pheno, or a better one with both traits
Or I can take the best potency plant I found and BX it to the P1 with the killer taste
Now that may sound kinda stupid as we already made that cross before (potency and taste) but now the potency plant is 1 generation old, and has the traits you want a bit more locked than anything else
That helps screening out the unwanted traits a bit more
So when the BX is done again, more potency phenos will appear, while taste plants get a bump aswell from the P1 that hold that trait, and hunt away again.
It's a question of time and chance, where can I find what I'm looking for the best and fastest ?
We can take a different approach to getting to the same goal, we can continue growing the F1 to find a better plant that hold the traits you want and save time growing another generation no matter BX or F2
That's where numbers come into effect
If I grow 1000 plants I have a high chance getting that 2 traits pheno in one cycle
While you can hunt 50-100 plant runs for 3 years before you get it
As in everything luck is a big factor

Breeders that hold elite clones have the best breeding grounds and starting point
For them it's just a matter of Selfing until uniformity.
The real work begins when you need to outcross and improve.
It may take a lot of generations to get to a worthy pheno outta F1, I mean, a pheno that is good enough to stabilize (nothing less than elite type drug plants)
So even if you do hit a nice plant, probably not worth working on, not elite
People who make seeds MUST start from the elite clone, if not you are wasting your time.

 

[Hiddenjems]

If I grow 1000 plants I have a high chance getting that 2 traits pheno in one cycle
While you can hunt 50-100 plant runs for 3 years before you get it
As in everything luck is a big factor

This is why I started buying clones. I’ve seen winners come out of genetics I couldn’t find a keeper in doing runs of 50 reg seeds. Let someone else pop 1,000+ seeds to find the stinkiest, most potent example of the strain that also happens to yield 2+ a light in under 8 weeks.