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150w HPS Club and Resource Guide......
- Thread starter Pipedream
- Start date
Your welcome, BongDaddy. PM me anytime. IMO, you're not hijacking. This is all part of the grow. The infirm may be advantageous because folks like StressTest go out of their way to help out. No different here but somebody might not see your post if they're not frequenting Pipedream's thread.
I think you're going to be ok. If your trouble is indeed low pH, it's only too low for Ca and Mg (unless you're seeing phosphorus def.) I'm willing to bet you're past the Ca and Mg surge.
Large fans store nutes, aid in transpiration and provide a bit of moisture if the roots have less water than optimum. They also aid in photosynthesis, especially when new growth is too small to do it as efficiently.
To a degree, you need all the help that fans deliver. Especially outdoors. However, the fractal nature of the plant generates new growth and it's somewhat natural for old growth to wither. The key is getting over the hump as def free as possible. After that, I could care less.
As you get a little more familiar with the various strains you'll be growing, you'll gain insight toward the level of green you wish to maintain when harvest approaches.
Some folks can grow mean and green right up to flush w/o complaining of bad taste from nutes. My preference is less than hard green because I've had trouble curing excess nitrogen out of harvested bud. Depending on the strain and whether you're rocking salts or organics, you'll discover for yourself the best time to stop feeding.
I think you're going to be ok. If your trouble is indeed low pH, it's only too low for Ca and Mg (unless you're seeing phosphorus def.) I'm willing to bet you're past the Ca and Mg surge.
Large fans store nutes, aid in transpiration and provide a bit of moisture if the roots have less water than optimum. They also aid in photosynthesis, especially when new growth is too small to do it as efficiently.
To a degree, you need all the help that fans deliver. Especially outdoors. However, the fractal nature of the plant generates new growth and it's somewhat natural for old growth to wither. The key is getting over the hump as def free as possible. After that, I could care less.
As you get a little more familiar with the various strains you'll be growing, you'll gain insight toward the level of green you wish to maintain when harvest approaches.
Some folks can grow mean and green right up to flush w/o complaining of bad taste from nutes. My preference is less than hard green because I've had trouble curing excess nitrogen out of harvested bud. Depending on the strain and whether you're rocking salts or organics, you'll discover for yourself the best time to stop feeding.
G
guest 77721
Super advice Disco. I couldn't tell from the HPS lighting if there are def's or not.
We've been talking about growing nice healthy plants vs high production methods. I prefer to use a large pot and take advantage of the buffer that a soil grow offers.
If you want to grow in a pop bottle and push it hard under intense lighting, the yeilds are there for the taking. The downside is there is no buffer. Daily waterings, wild pH swings, nute buildups and lockups are what happens without a buffer.
One method commonly used with minimal pot size growing is full submersion watering which is like doing a daily rez change and will keep the salt buildups to a minimum.
We've been talking about growing nice healthy plants vs high production methods. I prefer to use a large pot and take advantage of the buffer that a soil grow offers.
If you want to grow in a pop bottle and push it hard under intense lighting, the yeilds are there for the taking. The downside is there is no buffer. Daily waterings, wild pH swings, nute buildups and lockups are what happens without a buffer.
One method commonly used with minimal pot size growing is full submersion watering which is like doing a daily rez change and will keep the salt buildups to a minimum.
Maybe I'm in for a more trouble free grow this time. I bought a 5 gallon tub. The two little veg plants look like dingies lost at sea, lol.
Thanks for the info, red. You must dispense lots of it because I always get this message...
Thanks for the info, red. You must dispense lots of it because I always get this message...
BongDaddy
Member
Hmmm ok, I'll just ask my questions here. Not that I have a problem with PMing, but maybe it'll help someone else in my situation too. If someone wants me to take it elsewhere I can.
Just responding to your comments in order...
Pro Mix HP has dolomitic lime in it so I was under the impression that what it has would be enough. If I should add more dl in general, I'll probably have to wait until my next run.
I have a digital pH meter and I'm pretty sure it's accurate. I have some calibrating solution so I'll check it again tonight or tomorrow. I don't have a PPM or EC meter though (are they the same thing?). I thought they were only crucial if you're using big reservoirs of solution.
I read that Pro Mix should be treated more like soilless/hydro medium so I've been keeping the pH in the high-5's when I feed. I use rested tap water and when I use water only I pH it to around 6.8. Every once in a while someone puts up that chart of optimum pH levels, I wish I had a copy of it. I *thought* it said that 5.8 is optimum for hydro. Maybe my error is in keeping the pH too low. I've never had to use pH up (and I have some). Once I mix up a feeding solution it's never usually under about 6.5, and then like I said I bring it down a bit.
I never remove fan leaves because I know they're good buffers when you're having nute issues. If one is shading a bud I just try to tuck it out of the way. I only remove them once they're shrivelled up and come off with a gentle tug. All of the colas still look relatively healthy so I'm counting myself lucky for now.
I think one of the key points you hit on is getting to know the needs of a given strain. I only have a couple of grows under my belt so I'm just using mostly bagseed or seedbank unknown mixes while I learn the basics. The only one that I really know the strain of is my one Indica Diablo girl. It's likely counterproductive that I have so many different strains going, and feeding them all the same way.
Another thing I wonder about is if the age of my nutes is a factor. I bought them about 3 years ago, used them for one grow, and then they went into storage until a couple of months ago. I was wondering if maybe they evaporated a little and got a little stronger. I used them recently on a smaller CFL grow and it came out *ok*, but in hindsight I think I was having the same early yellowing issues.
So moving forward, what would you recommend as a fix, or at least a bandaid to get me a decent grow? I'm definitely a quality over quantity guy. I have some worm castings, blood meal, dolomitic lime and a couple of other things that I haven't used yet because I don't want to get too complex too fast. Hell, I'm even finding the 3 part nutes a bit of a pain sometimes. There's a hydro shop and a couple of nurseries near me so I could get my hands on pretty much anything.
I think next time I may follow redgreenry's suggestion and use fewer, bigger pots. I just liked the mental image of a SOG and it sucked me in. I think I should have started slower. Next time I'll probably try LST or SCROG, or maybe even au naturale like red does.
G
guest 77721
Looking for one of these???
I've always thought of Promix as an equivalent to soil as it is mostly peat moss compost. Compost will hold and accumulate nutrients as it has a collidal charge. This makes the medium more weighted in the soil direction than soil-less (hydro).
One of the problems new growers have is getting confused between Hydro and Soil pH's and getting wrong advice because of the mix of growers running both methods.
Soil is much more forgiving as all the nutes are available over a larger range 6.0 to over 7 where Hydro's range is very narrow around 5.8.
I throw a handful of Dolomite lime in my soil mix as a source of Ca and Mg and don't worry about pH. The only way the pH can drop is if I get carried away with the nutes.
I've always thought of Promix as an equivalent to soil as it is mostly peat moss compost. Compost will hold and accumulate nutrients as it has a collidal charge. This makes the medium more weighted in the soil direction than soil-less (hydro).
One of the problems new growers have is getting confused between Hydro and Soil pH's and getting wrong advice because of the mix of growers running both methods.
Soil is much more forgiving as all the nutes are available over a larger range 6.0 to over 7 where Hydro's range is very narrow around 5.8.
I throw a handful of Dolomite lime in my soil mix as a source of Ca and Mg and don't worry about pH. The only way the pH can drop is if I get carried away with the nutes.
Good idea, all the peeps can giggle at my suggestions.
I kid. It's common for bagged medium to contain lime. Some plants like a more acidic soil, azaleas for example. If promix included enough lime for mj, you'd have to mix peat in it to use for acid lovers. It's more economical for promix to make a general mix that can be amended with more lime if needed.
I never know what the next bag will test so I measure runoff from a sample.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but technically speaking, "soil" is dirt. Sand, clay and loam are typical soils.
Soil less is usually composted forest products. Peat, humus and tree bark are common. Left alone in nature, these ingredients eventually return to the soil in elemental form.
I agree that coco and hydro are similar. But it's my non-indelible opinion that soil less is a closer cousin to soil than coco. Based on reads, coco has little buffering capability. Soil less w/o lime has little buffering capability for mj but it still buffers. Pour some 4.0 water in a sample and you'll probably see a pH rise in the runoff.
I also read that growers seem to have success at with different points. Liquid Karma users recommend ~6.2 for soil less That said, dial in what's best for your variables.
If your promix is less than 6.8, 6.8 water won't raise the runoff pH. Water is probably the least buffering element in your show unless it's full of calcium.
You won't go wrong with red's advice. And if you add the correct (you know, in the ballpark) amount of lime, the lime will buffer in place of the small amount of soil.
I don't ever see expiration dates on chem nutes. GH says to mix Flora at 2x label strength when liquid starts to granulate. I'd double check the pH and if that's in check, you might consider testing another nute sample (they're available from the mfg and you can try before you buy.) They're pretty bad about sending a box that says hydro on it so be forewarned!
Oh yeah, EC is standard. TDS/ppm varies according to your particular meter. They have different scales.
A .5 scale TDS meter at 500 ppm approximates 1 EC.
.64 scale - 640ppm ~= 1 EC
.7 scale - 700ppm ~= 1 EC
If I could have only one meter, it would be pH. It helps to know the numeric value but strength variance is usually more forgiving than whack pH.
I usually throw label strength at plants when they're 6 to 8" tall. I watch for signs of burn and adjust accordingly. I've noticed that some strains never seem to show burn. Doesn't mean they're using all the nutes. Might be building up in the mix or gradually rinsed out with runoff.
Check your label to see if the recommended strength estimates EC value. For example, a teaspoon of FloraNova in a gallon of RO is ~1 EC. Says it on the label. If your fert strength is labeled higher than 1.0, try half-strength on small plants first.
Hope this helps.
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ProfGerbik
Active member
150w user here. once i stop being lazy ill post some of the pictures here along with the cured product of last harvest. i love my 150w, can check my ic, for harvest pictures if youd like..
last setup was hydro now im trying out ffof, going great ill post some pictures later on of that as well.
150watters live on.
last setup was hydro now im trying out ffof, going great ill post some pictures later on of that as well.
150watters live on.
Hello, ProfGerbiK. I checked your public profile. Your linked to the 3rd party photo service but one would have to navigate to your pics. And you'd have to make your pics available to the public to view.
Here's something to consider. IC has https protocol. If you store your pics here, you're less likely to be eaves dropped. Not likely to happen but this is a safer storage than http.
Look forward to seeing your pics. Have a nice w/e.
Here's something to consider. IC has https protocol. If you store your pics here, you're less likely to be eaves dropped. Not likely to happen but this is a safer storage than http.
Look forward to seeing your pics. Have a nice w/e.
BongDaddy
Member
So are you saying that you don't usually check the pH when you're mixing up some nutes for a feeding, except maybe if you're using a higher strength?
What I'm gathering from your and Disco's responses are that I'm keeping the pH way too low when I feed. That's pretty much what Disco said in his earlier response to me too. I can be pretty thick, I need things to be explained a couple of different ways sometimes lol
Maybe the next few times I feed (AND when I'm using straight water) I'll try to keep the pH in the mid to upper 6 range.
Any recommendations on anything else I can do besides that? What about using some blood meal or epsom salts? I just want to give my girls what they're needing right now so they don't stress too much. Or am I falling victim to the newbie mistake of overcaring? If necessary I can take some better pics of them so you can see what's up.
BlueGrassToker
Active member
Most any medium that gets amended with lime will not see major pH issues. And if you have a balanced well built medium, then you can feed just about any one or two part nutrient program according to their directions without worrying too much about pH fluctuations. Especially if you know that the pH and ppm of the water from the source is good.
Overcare is indeed one of the young growers nemesis.
Overcare is indeed one of the young growers nemesis.
G
guest 77721
I haven't checked pH diligently in a long time since I got dialed in with the A/N Sensi Bloom and Big Bud. I used to struggle with pH
when I ran salt based nutes.
I only check pH runoff in late flowering to see if the plant has stopped taking up nutes as the pH will drop as nutes accumulate in the soil when the plant slows down.
I think the biggest hurdle to new growers is to figure out if they are doing Hydro or Soil and pick salt based or organic/chelated sourced nutes to suit and a medium to match.
In soil the medium holds nutes and will accumulate salts over time. Normally you don't want to flush soil out while growing and there is no need to if non-salt nutes are used. D-Lime will keep the pH balanced as long as the nute pH is 6.2+
In Hydro, the medium is used as a structure for roots and works best if the medium doesn't accumulate nutes over time. Cheap salt based nutes are commonly used because the reservoir is changed weekly and partially consumed nutes are discarded. The trick with hydro is to present the correct mix and ppm of nutes within a more narrow range around 5.8.
All I can recommend right now is to flush your soil out and water with a nute mixture above 6.2 for the rest of the grow. Watch the pH of the runoff. If it drops below 6.2 then flush and reset.
when I ran salt based nutes.
I only check pH runoff in late flowering to see if the plant has stopped taking up nutes as the pH will drop as nutes accumulate in the soil when the plant slows down.
I think the biggest hurdle to new growers is to figure out if they are doing Hydro or Soil and pick salt based or organic/chelated sourced nutes to suit and a medium to match.
In soil the medium holds nutes and will accumulate salts over time. Normally you don't want to flush soil out while growing and there is no need to if non-salt nutes are used. D-Lime will keep the pH balanced as long as the nute pH is 6.2+
In Hydro, the medium is used as a structure for roots and works best if the medium doesn't accumulate nutes over time. Cheap salt based nutes are commonly used because the reservoir is changed weekly and partially consumed nutes are discarded. The trick with hydro is to present the correct mix and ppm of nutes within a more narrow range around 5.8.
All I can recommend right now is to flush your soil out and water with a nute mixture above 6.2 for the rest of the grow. Watch the pH of the runoff. If it drops below 6.2 then flush and reset.
BongDaddy
Member
I wouldn't really call myself young.
Thanks again everyone for the great advice. Just wondering...if I start giving better pH levels, etc., would I see any of that yellowing reverse? Or should I call it a close call, say goodbye to those fan leaves, and count myself lucky for not screwing up the actual buds too badly?
BlueGrassToker
Active member
I wasn't trying to imply that you were a kid, nor do you appear as such. I basically mean growers learning the sport.
Usually once a leaf gets enough yellowing in it to draw your attention, it is more than likely toast..depending on what is actually ailing it. It is always a good idea to shoot for doing what is optimum all the time. Sometimes things happen even when we do things that we know to be correct. The flower cycle of cannabis is too short to worry too much about things once things occur. Do the best to feed at recommended levels and push forward! The grows tend to improve once a person gets his style and such dialed in.
Some like to chase what a particular strain wants and likes, others like to find strains that suit there style of growing.
I like to grow a variety of lines, and as a result one plant may suffer because it likes a bit different feed...but it gets what it gets same as the rest of them. On occasion I may have one that hates much feed at all, and I will make exceptions for those types and feed them separate low ppm nutrients.
Usually once a leaf gets enough yellowing in it to draw your attention, it is more than likely toast..depending on what is actually ailing it. It is always a good idea to shoot for doing what is optimum all the time. Sometimes things happen even when we do things that we know to be correct. The flower cycle of cannabis is too short to worry too much about things once things occur. Do the best to feed at recommended levels and push forward! The grows tend to improve once a person gets his style and such dialed in.
Some like to chase what a particular strain wants and likes, others like to find strains that suit there style of growing.
I like to grow a variety of lines, and as a result one plant may suffer because it likes a bit different feed...but it gets what it gets same as the rest of them. On occasion I may have one that hates much feed at all, and I will make exceptions for those types and feed them separate low ppm nutrients.
G
guest 77721
Hey Bongdaddy,
if it's any help, my last grow I got heavy handed on the nutes with a mostly sativa and had slight tip burn and couldn't get all the nutes out of the plant.
I'm running a mostly indica this run and am at day 33. The plants are taking up nutes hard but I'm debating on whether or not to feed or reduce at this point. I always feed once or twice too many times and can't clear the plant even though they look great.
It takes a few grows to get dialed in and hopefully our mistakes are smokeable.
if it's any help, my last grow I got heavy handed on the nutes with a mostly sativa and had slight tip burn and couldn't get all the nutes out of the plant.
I'm running a mostly indica this run and am at day 33. The plants are taking up nutes hard but I'm debating on whether or not to feed or reduce at this point. I always feed once or twice too many times and can't clear the plant even though they look great.
It takes a few grows to get dialed in and hopefully our mistakes are smokeable.
BongDaddy
Member
I know, just pokin fun at myself.
I'm not one to easily take offense on internet forums. I've been chatting online since the early days of IRC. Also I work in the IT industry so I see firsthand every day how easily people can misinterpret or fly off the handle at the most innocent of comments. I laugh at them.
G
guest 77721
Here's my 6 week old Ultimate Thai ladies under 150 HPS and 2 x 42 CFL. They sure are loving the extra light.
I'm loving the grow skills and pics.
skyspider
Member
I have had seedlings like that , they pulled through ... after much research I ascertained in my case the probable cause was overwatering and not as I first suspected nute burn , I ruled that out because I had other seedlings in identical soil without a problem , I think some strains are susceptible to overwatering in the first few weeks ... this went against what I always thought i.e seedlings like moist/wet conditions ... I still give them lots of water but I go heavy on perlite for drainage ...Most def no restrictions on how many lol
I got a question for everyone out there I burnt the shit out of my seedling and now just put it under a 2liter what should I do? When it was at 12/12 it was fine then I chopped my SD and put it to 24/0 and this is what happened
I chopped the Sour D
BongDaddy
Member
Well I had a little bit of an incident last night. I opened up my cab for the daily check, only to find that the light hadn't come on when it was supposed to. Fortunately there's no issue with the light, it was the timer that had failed.
I don't really know what happened. It's a digital timer, and when I checked its programming, it was as if the 12/12 schedule I had programmed into it had just been deleted. Luckily I have a backup, a mechanical timer that I use for my car's block heater in the winter. I'm not sure if I want to keep using it though, because I've found that it's not entirely accurate in keeping time, sometimes drifting about 5 minutes a day. Also I've heard that the pins on mechanical timers wear out over time, so now I'm paranoid that another issue may come up.
I guess I'm lucky in that the timer failed to turn the light on. If I had to choose, I'd take that over it not turning the light off when it was supposed to. I suppose there's a chance that it did turn the light on when it was supposed to, and then failed some time after that, but I'm more inclined to think that it just didn't turn on in the first place. If that's the case, the girls missed out on about 6 hours of light.
What would be a decent timer to use? Or is this one good enough?
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/plug-in-24-hour-mechanical-timer/980599
I don't really know what happened. It's a digital timer, and when I checked its programming, it was as if the 12/12 schedule I had programmed into it had just been deleted. Luckily I have a backup, a mechanical timer that I use for my car's block heater in the winter. I'm not sure if I want to keep using it though, because I've found that it's not entirely accurate in keeping time, sometimes drifting about 5 minutes a day. Also I've heard that the pins on mechanical timers wear out over time, so now I'm paranoid that another issue may come up.
I guess I'm lucky in that the timer failed to turn the light on. If I had to choose, I'd take that over it not turning the light off when it was supposed to. I suppose there's a chance that it did turn the light on when it was supposed to, and then failed some time after that, but I'm more inclined to think that it just didn't turn on in the first place. If that's the case, the girls missed out on about 6 hours of light.
What would be a decent timer to use? Or is this one good enough?
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/plug-in-24-hour-mechanical-timer/980599
