100% male with feminized seeds?

[PetePrice]

In fact @kendermag this is likely the paper from Cronk they based some of that on - https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/plant-science/articles/10.3389/fpls.2020.01162/full

Need to have a read and see how male is defined, IE if it is just the form of a male they call a male etc...

 

[PetePrice]

It makes no sense to compare the evolution of dinosaurs until they became birds, since it was a process infinitely longer and more complex than the transition from monoicism to dioicism in plants. Which, as has been exposed, can be as simple as the mutation of a single gene.

The problem with that statement is that cannabis isn't fully dioecious so it still hasn't fully diverged/evolved...

 

[kendermag]

Is this from the Cronk paper? Leans on Lloyds past works... But yeah the transition didn't happen overnight even though they did it artificially here...

But we with canna need to except it's sub dioecious and act accordingly.

I will have to reread the paper

Odd but the paper you linked has different authors, this is the one I read -

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2021.0486

There are some quotes from Cronk and Muller, among many others.

This study concludes like this:

"Novel molecular techniques such as long read sequencing, transformation protocols or gene editing approaches are rapidly becoming available to support the identification of the sex-determining genes and the underlying genetic mechanisms leading to the evolution of dioecy. Thus, it is likely that several sex-determining systems will be resolved in the next couple of years. Furthermore, the pathway connecting these high-level regulators to floral phenotype is largely unknown, and work in this area is urgently required if we are to fully understand dioecy (Feng et al., 2020; Cronk and Müller, 2020). These data will allow exciting further generalizations and improve our understanding of the molecular control and the evolution of dioecy in flowering plants."

From your skepticism I deduce that you think we have learned almost everything about genetics, I basically think the opposite.

 

[PetePrice]

Odd thing to assume, I merely think that evolution takes time.

 

[kendermag]

Odd thing to assume, I merely think that evolution takes time.

I guess it depends on the magnitude of that evolution.

The evolution from a green algae to becoming cannabis maybe lasted more than thousand million years.

The evolution of a single cannabis plant becoming autoflowering probably happened spontaneously, from one generation to the next, as it only required the mutation of a single gene.
Another different thing is that it probably took "decades" to become predominant in an area of Russia or wherever..

 

[led05]

I share the idea that the main cause of these appearances of males could be due to pollination errors, or due to human errors in the handling and packaging of seeds, since many banks sell feminized and regular seeds.

But I do not dare to say that it is impossible, since this phenomenon happened 28 million years ago in Cannabis.
But it must not have been something so extraordinarily rare since many dioecious plant varieties did the same thing independently, that is, it has happened many times. There are two main theories that attempt to explain the transition from monoicism to diocism in plants, the 2-gene mutation theory, and the one-gene mutation theory.

But just as monoicism has remained in the DNA of cannabis to this day, this rare mechanism could have remained as well.

We will hardly be able to prove anything.. It would be necessary to do a DNA test on the supposed male, to see if he really is, and if so, also test one of his sisters, to see if they are real brothers, and it is not a male created with uncontrolled pollen.

nothing is impossible, especially given enough time - this study is interesting (and others linked within) albeit not cannabis

“
Dasiphora fruticosa comprises male, female and hermaphrodite plants, which are distributed sympatrically in some populations on the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau. To explore what governs the coexistence of these three sexual phenotypes, we investigated the DNA contents, pollen and ovule production, pollen deposition, and performed hand-pollination in both hermaphroditic and dioecious individuals of D. fruticosa. Flow cytometry confirmed that the DNA content of males and females were almost twice as much as that of the hermaphrodites. Male and female flowers produced more pollen grains and ovules than hermaphroditic flowers. Hand-pollinated treatments showed that unisexual flowers were sterile in one sexual function and bisexual flowers were fertile for both functions, but no sterile seeds were produced between unisexual and bisexual flowers. Our findings imply that polyploidy is related to gender dimorphism, and both are likely to play a strong role in the coexistence of two cryptic biological species of D. fruticosa(low ploidy hermaphroditic species and high ploidy dioecious species) in the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau.
Keywords: Gender polymorphism, Dioecy, Dasiphora fruticosa, Polyploidy, Reproductive isolation”

The coexistence of hermaphroditic and dioecious plants is associated with polyploidy and gender dimorphism in Dasiphora fruticosa

Dasiphora fruticosa comprises male, female and hermaphrodite plants, which are distributed sympatrically in some populations on the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau. To explore what governs the coexistence of these three sexual phenotypes, we investigated the DNA ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

““Furthermore, D. fruticosa is an excellent model for studying the evolutionary transition from hermaphroditism to dioecy.”

“
Most flowering plants are hermaphroditic, and unisexual individuals (dioecious) have evolved from hermaphroditic ancestors many times (Renner, 2014). Trioecy is an uncommon sexual system in which hermaphrodites, females, and males coexist in some species. Trioecy occurs during the evolutionary transition from hermaphroditism to dioecy (Charlesworth and Charlesworth, 1978, Ross, 1982, Spigler and Ashman, 2012). Trioecy is a stable evolutionary stage under pollen limitation of female seed production because pollen limitation reduces the fitness of females but not self-fertile hermaphrodites, counteracting the seed fertility advantage of females (Maurice and Fleming, 1995). However, previous research has shown that this sexual system is not stable because when the conditions that enable invasion by females into androdioecious populations are the same as those that result in the displacement of hermaphrodites by females, the sexual system will become dioecy (Perry et al., 2012, Wolf and Takebayashi, 2004). Thus, the stable coexistence of hermaphroditic and dioecious plants remains poorly understood.

Ploidy level (diploid and polyploid) and gender polymorphism (dioecy, gynodioecy, subdioecy, and trioecy) are associated in several flowering plant genera (Miller et al., 2016, Miller and Venable, 2000, Pannell et al., 2004, Ramsey and Ramsey, 2014, Spigler and Ashman, 2012). For example, in Lycium, polyploidy is a trigger for the evolution of gender dimorphism in self-incompatible groups (Miller and Venable, 2000, Miller and Venable, 2002). In Leptinella, gender dimorphism has evolved from monoecy; and, dioecy has been found in two tetraploid species (Himmelreich et al., 2012).

Although the shrubby cinquefoil Dasiphora was formerly a member of Potentilla(Davidson and Lenz, 1989, Elkington, 1969), genetic evidence has shown that Dasiphora is distinct (Eriksson et al., 2003, Zhang et al., 2017). Dasiphora fruticosa is widely distributed in cool temperate and subarctic regions. Each individual produces hundreds of yellow flowers that have five petals and dozens of stamens and/or stigmas per flower (Fig. 1A–F). D. fruticosa flowers begin opening in the morning and the flowers are mainly visited by nectarivorous and pollenivorous insects (Denisow et al., 2013, Elkington and Woodell, 1963, VanOverbeke et al., 2007).”

Contd

 

[led05]

The evolution of a single cannabis plant becoming autoflowering probably happened spontaneously, from one generation to the next, as it only required the mutation of a single gene.
Another different thing is that it probably took "decades" to become predominant in an area of Russia or wherever..

You sure Autoflowering is driven by a single gene..?

 

[mudballs]

Florigen is controlled by a gene

 

[mudballs]

Brain hurt yet? ...mine does

 

[CannaZen]

You sure Autoflowering is driven by a single gene..?

That's it I have had doubts, maybe I'll read about the genes I'm looking forward to growing several plants out may be some day.

Led, i appreciate your maturity. the hemp field I live next to is trioecic by my observation for maximum pollination/seed production. I do not know very much about advanced economics that the field could topple over and have an equal ratio of male and female again but I have the opportunity to get more hands on experience with their pollination of my auto kush. I wanted to do a mountain kush line here. Thanks for carrying this discussion it's been productive for furthering my understanding. Here's to really good resin that doesn't make me trip.

 

[xtsho]

If you purchased feminized seeds and you got a male then the most likely cause would be cross pollination.

Unless you made the feminized seeds yourself without any other males anywhere near the grow it's likely that there was stray pollen.

 

[kendermag]

Dasiphora fruticosa comprises male, female and hermaphrodite plants, which are distributed sympatrically in some populations on the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau.

It sounds really interesting, I have to give a read to trioecy.
I remember reading something similar about a species of tree, that depending on its latitude (cold), one or another of these three systems predominated.

You sure Autoflowering is driven by a single gene..?

I think is mostly accepted that it is a monogenic trait, whose segregation in F2 of 25%, seems to confirm that it is homozygous recessive.

The autoflowering trait has been reported to be homozygous recessive and controlled by a single genetic locus (Green 2005)

 

[led05]

It sounds really interesting, I have to give a read to trioecy.
I remember reading something similar about a species of tree, that depending on its latitude (cold), one or another of these three systems predominated.


I think is mostly accepted that it is a monogenic trait, whose segregation in F2 of 25%, seems to confirm that it is homozygous recessive.

The autoflowering trait has been reported to be homozygous recessive and controlled by a single genetic locus (Green 2005)

I think Green is wrong; and furthermore that there’s different types of auto flowering within cannabis vs say low Ryder

***************
I’ve been pondering the Monoecious thing some more and I’ve seen it in SE Asians, Africans & Hawaiians (Molokai Frost) personally, for instance I recently reversed my Cambodians #1 and she dropped tons of pollen, made tens of thousands of seeds, the thing is though she beat me to the reverse punch. Once I rotated her @ I found one full arm all male before my sprays had done anything, I’ve seen & watched these same arms on other Cambodians, Laotians, Hawaiians, Gambians etc, I’ve seen them grow seemingly overnight & be dumping pollen in a matter of days, it’s unbelievable but I’ve seen it too many times to doubt it….these arms are on otherwise complete female plants

Again On Full female plants, a 2-3 foot arm grows with pearl like only male flowers on it, dumps in a matter of days, entire arm growth, flowers & dumping takes less than a week. It screams of survival mechanism to me and also why it imo SE Asians are never firmly Male or female as it happens with them so regularly…

Full blown male X that came from a “reversed” Cambodian, I’m certain the seed he came from came from pollen from the wild male arm & not the two I reversed…

*******************
So when I speak of contamination it doesn’t necessarily mean what we end with, it could be just as easily what we began with, the plant doesn’t even have to show you the one “odd” arm either, it can be buried deep within the genes, but its there - so without testing inputs & outputs we truly don’t know what we’ve got, sexuality is fluid in cannabis, equatorial sativas even more and SE Asians it’s fundamentally a thing - LadyBoys beware

 

[CannaZen]

Interesting. Alright. Nice share. Maybe they'd just been infected pretty bad. It is like that right? I don't think we get the best Thai specimens too much inbreeding herms. Idk.. im better off not responding. Those himalayans are really good sativa too and now I think even a portion of those do it. I'm just gonna cull or risk seeing it in all my seeds.

 

[led05]

Interesting. Alright. Nice share. Maybe they'd just been infected pretty bad. It is like that right? I don't think we get the best Thai specimens too much inbreeding herms. Idk.. im better off not responding. Those himalayans are really good sativa too and now I think even a portion of those do it. I'm just gonna cull or risk seeing it in all my seeds.

Sometimes there’s a price to pay for the very best of rides

 

[mexcurandero420]

Where were those genetics from the Hawaiians and Africans coming from?