10 min $10 DIY aerated compost tea ACT brewer

[rrog]

Gas exchange across a permeable membrane (including a meniscus) is determined by concentration gradients of the same gas, not the presence of other gases. The same amount of CO2 will pass out of or into solution irrespective of the presence of other gases in already in solution. The O2 - CO2 gas exchange isn't relevant I don't feel, as that generally refers (in my mind) to the O2 / CO2 binding to Hemoglobin.

A point that might help shed some light comes from the five basic postulates to the kinetic theory of gases:

•1. Gases consist of tiny molecular or atomic particles.
•2. The proportion between the size of these particles and the distances between them is so small that the individual particles can be assumed to have negligible volume.
•3. These particles experience continual random motion. When placed in a container, their collisions with the walls of the container constitute the pressure exerted by the gas.
•4. The particles neither attract nor repel one another.
•5. The average kinetic energy of the particles in a gas is directly related to absolute temperature.

Points #1 and #2 are the key. Dissolved gases essentially add no volume to the solute, so one gas doesn't have to leave in order to "make room" for the another. Several gases can go into and out of the same solution independently, without any regard for the others because when in solution, there is a near-universe of space for these gases to fit. This presumes that the gases do not enter into chemical reactions with the water.

 

[StrapAssassin42]

Hey strap. You won't find this info in Teaming With Microbes. The book is specific to the micro-herd / root interactions in the rhizosphere. A really great read

guess not Microbeman

 

[rrog]

duplicate post

 

[rrog]

Strap, have you been to this site: http://microbeorganics.com/ If not it's like the disneyland of microbes. Add to your favorites

 

[jerry111165]

Your living room looks like mine except mine has girls

between the wife and the three daughter mine is usually pretty full up too...*lol*

jerry.

 

[jerry111165]

Hey strap. You won't find this info in Teaming With Microbes. The book is specific to the micro-herd / root interactions in the rhizosphere. A really great read

I keep telling myself I am going to buy and read this book after all the hype I see on it everywhere. From what I understand its a pretty good book.

jerry.

 

[rrog]

I'd recommend getting the book, and visiting the site linked.

 

[Bullfrog44]

Bullfrog, surface area (of water) equals gas exchange, and the more turbulent that surface is, the more gas exchange can occur. It is only at the water's surface that O2 is exchanged with CO2 (and the colder the water, the more O2 it can hold). Shake it up, mang!

The answer to this was already answered by another so I will just cut and paste.....

Upon initial inspection, a benefit of the vortex could be that it creates a huge surface area by sort of stretching out the water and its contact time with air, along with all the turbulence it creates. Perhaps if there were riffles on the interior or water contact surfaces of the cone, that could further induce better O2 saturation (think rocks in a stream causing more turbulence). Ribbing, it's not just for pleasure.

As for people talking about breaking the surface tension.....my vortex brewer has it's overflow about 2 inches above the water line. It for sure turns up the surface of the water and creates visible bubbles on the surface.

I wonder if I could put something (anything) partially in the way of vortex to create a disruption on the surface. just a thought.

I have found that any drag on the vortex will kill it. At one point I tried to have my overflow pipe in my brew to see if it made a difference. Just the pvc pipe from my overflow created enough drag to kill the vortex. I think if you want to add more air to the surface then you should just create a bigger drop from your overflow. My cone bottom tank was a lip on it so I can shoot my water coming from the overflow a good 2-4 inches without having any splash out of my tank. That creates a lot of breaks in the surface tension.

 

[StrapAssassin42]

nice...thanks bullfrog. with that in mind i probly cant modify the bucket brewer to make a vortex because the lift pipe will be in the way.

Bullfrog....where did you get your cone bottom tank with the lip?

 

[StrapAssassin42]

Strap, have you been to this site: http://microbeorganics.com/ If not it's like the disneyland of microbes. Add to your favorites

very cool rrog! i had seen it before but only glanced over the tea making part...didn't realize it had all that info!!

 

[StrapAssassin42]

jerry....the book runs 20 bucks on amazon with shipping...just do it!!

 

[rrog]

very cool rrog! i had seen it before but only glanced over the tea making part...didn't realize it had all that info!!

That fellow is also a consultant / comrade of the authors of the book.

None other than our own Microbeman.

 

[Microbeman]

Gas exchange across a permeable membrane (including a meniscus) is determined by concentration gradients of the same gas, not the presence of other gases. The same amount of CO2 will pass out of or into solution irrespective of the presence of other gases in already in solution. The O2 - CO2 gas exchange isn't relevant I don't feel, as that generally refers (in my mind) to the O2 / CO2 binding to Hemoglobin.

A point that might help shed some light comes from the five basic postulates to the kinetic theory of gases:

•1. Gases consist of tiny molecular or atomic particles.
•2. The proportion between the size of these particles and the distances between them is so small that the individual particles can be assumed to have negligible volume.
•3. These particles experience continual random motion. When placed in a container, their collisions with the walls of the container constitute the pressure exerted by the gas.
•4. The particles neither attract nor repel one another.
•5. The average kinetic energy of the particles in a gas is directly related to absolute temperature.

Points #1 and #2 are the key. Dissolved gases essentially add no volume to the solute, so one gas doesn't have to leave in order to "make room" for the another. Several gases can go into and out of the same solution independently, without any regard for the others because when in solution, there is a near-universe of space for these gases to fit. This presumes that the gases do not enter into chemical reactions with the water.

Sorry for some of the iffy smalchtsy references. Both my research and that of Leon Hussey has shown a rise in the water column (representative to me of increase in volume) upon aeration [without extra breaking of surface tension]. If this is not an increase in volume, I do not know what it is.

It is not so much a law that one molecule must be removed for another to take its place as one that one does displace the other and is able to occupy its place.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=RLp...esnum=8&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q&f=false



https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/115

In addition to supplying critical dissolved oxygen, vigorous aeration will drive off some proportion of the carbon dioxide produced in the pond.


http://www.unuftp.is/static/fellows/document/mercedes07prf.pdf
5.2 pH levels in the systems
The pH levels depend on the performance of the total inorganic carbon equilibrium in the water and which one of carbon species is predominant in the water environment as was shown in section 2, Figure 1 (Boyd 2000). The pH levels of the culture water were 7.4-8.0 in both systems during all the experimental period, values which are within the optimal rate for Arctic charr aquaculture (Aquafarmer 2004). Molleda 30 UNU-Fishries Training Programme
The pH value fluctuations observed in both systems during the period (Figure 6) depended on the total inorganic carbon (TIC) concentration of the new water in the inlet to the systems (Figure 7) and on the total CO2 concentration in the culture water (Figure 8). The low pH levels registered in the outlet water from the culture tanks for the LRS during the whole period in comparison with the pH levels from the RAS were mainly due to the higher CO2 concentration levels in the RAS (Fig. 8).

The pH values in the inlet water were higher than in the outlets in both systems (Figure 6) due to the function of the aerators. They removed the dissolved CO2 from the water and, as a result, the water pH increased.

5.3 Total inorganic carbon (TIC) levels and carbon dioxide (CO2) levels in the systems: removal rate of carbon dioxide (CO2)
Carbon dioxide (CO2) is a function primarily of the total amount of inorganic carbon (TIC) present in water and of pH (Summerfelt et al. 2000). During the experiment, the TIC concentrations measured for the outlet and inlet water from the tanks and for the new water inlet to the systems were similar and depended mainly on the TIC concentration in the new inlet water in the systems. The TIC was higher in the RAS than in the LRS during whole the period analysed. This may be related to the slightly higher temperature in the RAS system (see Appendix). The CO2 concentrations were similar in both systems during the entire experiment (Figure 8). The CO2 concentration was slightly higher in the LRS (2.64-3.97 mg CO2 L-1) and than in the RAS (1.87-4.32 mg CO2 L-1). This difference may be a result of the lower metabolic rate of the fish in the RAS. The amount of CO2 produced for each mg of oxygen consumed was about 1:1 as had been suggested by other studies in Arctic charr (Aquafarmer 2004, Forsberg 1997). The CO2 concentrations in both systems were lower than the 10-20 mg L-1 which is the suggested limit for CO2 in salmonid aquaculture (Fivelstad et al. 1998, Summerfelt et al. 2000, Summerfelt et al. 2004).

The low dissolved CO2 in both systems suggests that the aerators effectively removed CO2 from both systems (Figure 8).


http://www.ics2011.pl/artic/SP64_417-420_R.Marks.pdf


http://dwb.unl.edu/teacher/nsf/c09/c09links/www.chem.ualberta.ca/courses/plambeck/p101/p01182.htm

http://dwb.unl.edu/teacher/nsf/c09/c09links/www.chem.ualberta.ca/courses/plambeck/p101/p01066.htm

 

[Microbeman]

PS. Brownian motion explored by several scientists is an interesting aspect of motion within water.

 

[rrog]

I hope none of this means I don’t get a xmas card.

Gases seek equilibrium. If there is a higher level of microbially produced CO2 developing in the tea or municipal water supply, then the increased exposure to the lower CO2 concentrated air would logically promote the movement of CO2 out of the tea as the agitation promotes equilibrium.

If during aerobic respiration, O2 was rapidly depleted from the tea, then aeration and agitation would very similarly increase the O2 levels as the agitation promotes equilibrium with the air. Gases seek equilibrium but can be assisted with agitation / surface area exposure. I think we’d agree on that.

These two activities, the reduction of CO2 and the increase in O2, are independent events. Two separate responses to two different concentration gradients. Either process is not reliant on the removal of one atom to make room for a similarly insignificantly small molecule in the vastness that is water. Similarly, at standard atmospheric pressures and temps, even a slightly supersaturated solution of O2 or CO2 (or both) wouldn’t see a change in volume or mass.

What is interesting to me is with your references to all that CO2 production, the amount of respiration occurring must be staggering. Sort of puts it in perspective for me.

 

[Microbeman]

Gases seek equilibrium. If there is a higher level of microbially produced CO2 developing in the tea or municipal water supply, then the increased exposure to the lower CO2 concentrated air would logically promote the movement of CO2 out of the tea as the agitation promotes equilibrium

.

Do not get how this relates to expulsion of CO2 through aeration.

I think one problem is my observations are based on real work? How do you quantify the rise in the water column when excessive surface tension disruption is not provided. The other observation being that when such disruption is provided, there is a rise in DO2. There has to be a logical hypothesis forgetting the stuff in text books. I did not measure CO2 because I lacked the equipment but it was measured in the paper posted.

 

[Microbeman]

Either process is not reliant on the removal of one atom to make room for a similarly insignificantly small molecule in the vastness that is water.

It is not so much a law that one molecule must be removed for another to take its place as one that one does displace the other and is able to occupy its place.

Thrichoderma & fusarium?

 

[Bullfrog44]

nice...thanks bullfrog. with that in mind i probly cant modify the bucket brewer to make a vortex because the lift pipe will be in the way.

Bullfrog....where did you get your cone bottom tank with the lip?

http://www.tank-depot.com/productsearch.aspx?search=cone+bottom&x=0&y=0

The cost comes with the shipping so make sure you check that out as well.

 

[rrog]

MM, curious how much volume increase you're seeing. Given the huge increase in bio-mass, there would have to be a corresponding increase in bio-volume.

 

[Microbeman]

In a tank 12 feet by around 30 inches a rise of over 4 inches without any compost. Straight water. DO2 measure 9 to 10 ppm. With surface tension broken, only about 1 inch rise and 11 to over 12 PPM DO2.