1st grow, 250W CFL, closet setup, pics & help!

edited

Hmmm, that's a tough one to figure, could be the amount of light (yeah 250W of CFL's is a bit much for a newly sprouted seed) I typically sprout 10 seeds under four 40W T-8 Tube fluoros (2 twin bulb shoplights)and the reason why it's just 10 is because I start in one gallon pots and 10 is all I can fit comfortably under those, 5 under each shoplight. You may have been going by the old 50W per square foot rule but that's more for HID's and really more for late veg and flower.

It could be the heat, 75 to 80 is ideal, up to 85 is fine, beyond that you begin to invite trouble. You adjusted, the temps got lower and now the plant has become more normal looking. The evidence strongly suggests the heat was your problem. Of course if you had too much light, light can translate to heat so there's some linkage there, heat usually though is poor ventilation not to be confused with circulation. I'm talking new cooler air coming in, old warmer air going out.

It could be the genetics, that is bagseed and bagseed usually means the grower only knows the plant it came from tasted good and got him/her high. Some of the commercial stuff out there has been highly manipulated (no pun intended :smile. Plants learn from their environment and then encode that info into their seeds. In nature this is a method to help insure a plant's ability to survive. The parent plant "optimizes" the seed assuming the seed will fall from the plant and grow nearby as nature intended. When you hear stories like "I know a guy who grows this killer stuff, it's so good he's been growing the same thing for 20 years." The genetics certainly play there part but it's also "killer stuff" because it's been grown the same way by the same grower, under roughly the same conditions for 20 years. It's optimized for that grower and the environment he created. If however it turned out his environment was radically different in some way then most gardens people like you or I produce then it's concievable the seedling is choking on that difference causing the mutated look. They look alot like the leaves one gets when a plant has been put in flower and then the grower decides to revert to veg. The new leaves while it's reverting look alot like that. Then again new developing leaves are extremely sensitive and since the temps were high it likely stressed the seedling and the leaves did that as a result. Then again it could simply be a deformed seed or a mutation that could pop up in any batch of seeds. Being bagseed you don't know what to expect, which is the bad thing about bagseed. Store bought seeds are usually prepared by people who know what they're doing and are making the seeds with the intention of them being grown and with a good understanding how the average consumer of seeds grows them. So alot of the problems that turn up in bagseed are prevented thru proper care.

Some might argue that even though it says organic it's Miracle Grow soil and the Miracle Grow part makes it bad. There is some truth to this in that miracle grow is not designed for mj. It can be used successfully but not in the same way you use traditional ferts people get at hydro shops or online stores. This applies mainly to their ferts though, I've used the regular miracle grow enriched potting soil (more of a green bag) I don't use it now though because I found one as readily available, cheaper, and as good or better in quality. It's called Expert Gardener Perfect Potting Mix, sells at Walmart, Home Depot, Lowe's, and other such places carrying garden supplies for around $7 for 2 cubic feet (the big bags). Although I recommend you get the 1 cubic foot size as they almost never have undesirably large pieces of wood mulch or bark in them. The 2 cubic foot size often has big chunks in it. They probably figure it's just going to be spread in a large flower bed and in that case the large chunks are less of a problem. I doubt the soil was your problem though but I don't rule it out because many folks reported problems using the miracle grow moisture control version which is fine for the right garden and marijuana is not one of the right ones.

All in all the most likely explaination for the problem is the heat, you've improved it and the plant is getting better. The high intensity it's seeing from two 125W right in it's grill is also keeping it from doing much vertical growth at this point you want a bit of vertical growth to give the plant a place to put the leaves. If the plant is trying to pump out new leaves and the growtip doesn't even move a quarter of an inch higher then those leaves would interfere with one another which is what it looked like at day 4 in that first pic.

I want to explore the lighting angle a bit more as it relates to heat. First you mention you are doing 24/0. That's okay and I've done it myself but usually just the first 2 weeks. Now I only do that with clones when I'm trying to get them to root. For them they need to get as much light as they can get to drive the production of roots. Not much else is going on with a clone until it does that. Without roots it's only real food source is the few leaves it has the only other thing needed for root production is the presence of moisture in terms of humidity, and the light energy to drive the process. Seedlings already have a four inch or longer tap root with branches developing, by the time a seedling breaks the surface. This means the plant is open to the full range of plant response. Plants have a light response (what it does when the light is on) and a dark response (what it does when the light is off). These responses are different. 24/0 can work because while a plant does certain things as far as it's botanical functions, more efficiently in the dark, it can do them in the light. In it's natural state plants limit the dark response activity mostly to the dark so it can devote itself to gathering and storing as much energy from the light as possible while the light is on. If the light doesn't go off though then eventually the plant has to do those functions in the light or else the plant will have no place to store the energy once it fills the storage it has (the leaves, they store starches, sugars, etc which is what the light becomes when it is absorbed by the plant.) The dark response is to take these starches and sugars and use them in a chemical reaction with the water and nutrients it gets thru the roots to build new plant matter. Since the plant is not busy processing new light energy when the light is out it can now focus it's attention on moving the required sugars, starches, water, nutrients, proteins, hormones, etc. thru the network of the plant's roots, stems and branches to create the growth where it's needed. I have come to believe that the best veg cycle for seedlings and rooted clones is 18 hours on and 6 hours off. It's a close approximation to nature, alot closer then 24/0. People typically do 24/0 to get max growth in veg. I've done 8 week vegs both 24/0 and 18/6 both grows produced plants about 6 feet tall but the 24/0 grow did have plants about 4 to 6 inches taller then the 18/6 grow. To me that's a minimal difference since 6 feet is really too tall for most indoor grows. There were two more important benefits, one was that the plants looked visibly healthier grown 18/6 then the ones 24/0. Not as important but a close second was it shaved about $15 a month off my electric bill. :smile:

Anyway I got a little side tracked like I said before 50W per square foot is more for late veg and flower under HID's where the plants are typically taking up about 2 cubic feet on average. When they're tiny like that it's not so much about the watts per square foot as it is about the penetration distance of the lights based on the inversed squared rule which state essentially that every time you double the distance from the light the energy available at that point is reduced by a factor of four. So let's say you have a 1000W light and to measure an amount of light energy one fourth the amount present at the bulb, you had to move out 1 foot from the bulb. If you move out to 2 feet it will be 1/4th what it is at the 1 foot point and 1/16th as strong as at the bulb. At three feet it's 1/4th of 2 feet. 1/16th of one foot and 1/64th of the bulb and so on. Eventually it gets too weak to be any good to the plant. Humans often make a mistake here though because at 2 feet or 4 feet or 6 feet the bulb still seems damn bright to us. That's because we percieve light visually and this is rated in lumens a 1000W HPS light generally is about 140,000 lumens which means damn bright since one lumen is based on the brightness given off by one candle, so it's like concentrating the brightness of 140,000 candles into the space of a bulb. Plants percieve light as the amount of energy available at a given point to convert to food. This is rated in PAR and unfortunately very few lights are rated in PAR which is probably why we humans don't even think in these terms usually. Now while CFL's seem bright they're really not like HID's because the total energy they have is lower to start with so it drops off quicker as the light moves out from the source, the result being, those 125's have a penetrating power of about 6 to 8 inches at best. If you factor in say 2 inches due to the heat from the bulb, that gives you four inches of penetrating power. A 1000W HID after you factor in the distance between plant and light, has about 3 or 4 feet of penetrating power. So there 50W per square foot makes sense because a HID has the strength to effectively cover enough square feet to do that whereas CFL's do not. Now if I were to grow with 250W worth of cfl's I'd want them to be 5 50W cfl's and I'd want my plants no more then 18 inches tall. 2 at the height of the bottom third on the outside of each plant shining inward. One at the middle third inbetween the two plants and then two more on the outside of the top third shining inward like the one at the bottom but making a cross with the bottom two if you looked down from above, that would give good light all the way around. I like bigger plants then that though which is why I use HID's for most of my growing and reserve cfl's for starting plants and/or doing a slow veg while others are flowering when doing back to back grows, they're also good for controlling growth of mother plants if you're into cloning but the bulk of veg and flower I go with the HID's.

I also wanted to touch base on the ventilation because that's probably where your heat issue really comes from, insufficient ventilation. You're growing in a closet, likely in your home, which means the grow space will never be any cooler then the rest of your house unless you use ac. That's with good ventilation to achieve good ventilation for cooling you need as many as 5 complete room changes of air per minute. Meaning all the airspace which is measured in cubic feet (height of grow space x length of grow space x width of grow space = Cubic feet of air.) Lets say the closet is 3 feet wide, four feet deep and 8 feet tall then the cubic feet of air for one complete room change would be 8 x 4 x 3 = 96 cubic feet. To achieve maximum cooling thru ventilation you would need to exchange 96 x 5 = 480 cubic feet of air every minute. Ventilation fans are rated in cfm or cubic feet per minute so to achieve maximum cooling you would want a fan that is rated for 480cfm's or better. Now even if cooling isn't an issue, you still need to exchange the air because plants need co2 like we need oxygen. There is enough in the air naturally that if you exchange the air space in a room once every 5 minutes then that is sufficient so the equation becomes 96 / 5 = 19.2 cubic feet so a fan or fans rated at 20cfm's would be sufficient. I believe a computer case fan is rated at about 2 cubic feet per minute so two case fans could handle that much if that's all you needed. Now most folks keep their homes around 70 so you don't really need maximum cooling thru ventilation to get your temps at a good level, just guesstimating I'd say a fan at around 320cfm's could probably handle the 3'x4'x8' example I gave. If you don't have that you need to find a way to make that happen. More often then not, closet growers are renters so they run into the problem of "I can't cut holes in the walls, ceilings or door" which is mostly true unless you know how to repair any holes you make. An easier and more sure way is to buy a cheap replacement door that you can butcher to your hearts content. You can get them at places like Home Depot for around $25 to $30 maybe cheaper. Anyway what you want is to have your fan at the top of your space usually in the center and either exhasting thru flexible ducts like dryers use out of the grow space thru the ceiling or top of the door. This is what is known as an active exhaust. You want it at the top center of the space because since heat rises that is where the warmest air is. Now since air is going out you need for it to get in too. The best way to do this is thru what is called a passive intake which is simply an opening. When working with a door an easy way to do this is have it so the bottom of the door is 2 to 3 inches from the floor. You want it as low as it can be because just like warm air rises, cool air falls so the coolest source for fresh air is usually at floor level. Many people try to get slick by having an active intake and an active exhaust. It's very inefficient to do this though as the air blowing in can interfere with the air blowing out if it's not properly balanced. Since warm air rises and cold air falls exhausting the air thru the ceiling creates negative air pressure in the room which will pull outside air in thru the path of least resistance, the vent at floor level. The Only thing is, you got to be able to light proof the vent during the dark cycle in flower. It's easy to do but hard to explain. You basically need to make it such that the air will travel thru to 90 degree angles in it's path before it enters the room. This is what's known as a light baffle I believe. Light travels in a straight line if you have two non reflective right angles to go thru there's no way light can get in. Also keep in mind the air being exhausted out will have the smell of the grow which gets quite strong and pungent, enough to soak into things and penetrate walls and floors and ceilings. If that will be a security issue you'll need to find a way to nuetralize the odor. Most folks use what's called a carbon scrubber. You can buy them pre-made online but they're pretty pricey they're not too hard to make and there are probably a bunch of how to's on making them here on this site if you look around. A search in the forum search for carbon scrubbers should point you in the right direction.

wow Hempkat, quite a post. All I wanted to add is, I have had plants do that, they normally grow out of it eventually, as long as it is still green, you should be fine

it is normal for the cotyledons(first leaf-like things) to droop like that. they look great

as for the first plant with the odd curling leaves, I wouldn't worry about it, probably just genetic mutations of some sort

Yeah just to add a second voice, the leaves on your new seedlings are normal. Those leaves typically die off when the plant starts growing more anyway. Their main purpose is to provide enough nutrition to get the first couple sets of leaves going. Once done those leaves take over and the cotyledons aren't really needed anymore.

The new paint smell will go away eventually as the smell of the grow takes over.

A couple of things I'm noticing, first of all the pot that first plant is in is pretty small. That plant won't get very tall in there. Plants typically don't get much more then twice the heaight of the pot their in. I doubt it's a lowryder strain since it came from commercial sources. Commercial growers typically want the most bang for their buck and as such faver either very potent strains and/or large yielding strains. Lowryder is neither of those. It could potentially be lowryder since you don't know for sure who grew it but I'm more inclined to believe it isn't. Also I'm wondering what are your plans for growing these 9 plants out? When I use one 1000W light I try not to grow more then 10 plants. I notice if I do more then that I typically get about the same amount on a final yield as I do with 10 plants but each individual plant yields less because there is less room for the plants to grow into. I ask because all I know of you have for light is those two 125W CFL's which really is only enough for 2 maybe 3 plants. If you can't give them more light then that you'll essentially be wasting those seeds because the 9 total won't produce much more then if you just did 2 plants. Now if you are going to be able to move them under a HID light later you may be okay but for 9 plants I would want at a minimum 2 400W HIDs. Thing is that's too much for a small cabinet. When those plants get full size you're going to need a space about 4 feet wide and 8 feet long. In that size space 2 400W HIDs or 1 1000W would be fine. HID lights run alot hotter then CFLs though so you'll also need more fans and ventilation to cool it. There's only to practical, reasonably high yielding methods to grow in a small space with not alot of light. One is called the SOG or Sea of Green method. In this method the grower places a bunch of plants in say 20oz or so cups and grows them close together in a small space. They veg them a little, then flip them into flower and raise the light about a foot above the plants. The end result is a bunch of small plants where each plant is just a single cola (the largest bud on a plant usually. They're the top most bud and usually considered the most potent bud on a plant). The plants may grow a couple of other small buds but mainly it'll be just the colas. The thing about this method is you want and need uniform growth which is tough with multiple from seed plants even from the same strain. Of course with more then one strain it's even tougher. People who grow SOG typically work with clones from the same strain so that all plants will grow pretty much the same. The other high yield for small space method is ScrOG or Screen Of Green method. In this method only a couple of plants are grown, usually of the same strain. They're grown normally at first but once the plants are about 12 to 18 inches tall a screen is placed over them. Not a screen like in a window but rather a screen where each hole in the screen is about 2 inches squared. As the plant grows it will mash up against the screen. The branches are then trained (positioned such that they fill up the screen. Then the plant is put into flower and the buds grow up thru the holes in the screen. Each bud will end up being like a small cola bud. Those are just a quick brief break down of those methods. If you plan to use either you should research them more first. What I gave you so far isn't enough for a new grower to try either of these methods.

ole gravy legs said:

Hempkat: right now we only have the single plant under the 2 125W CFL's. We just finished a rubbermaid tub that is going to have up to 6 42W 6500k CFL's in it. We are not anticipating getting all females and these are the only plants we are planting right now. We will cross that bridge when we get to it

Do you suggest I transplant the more mature plant to a bigger container?

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Okay well I wasn't sure which is why I asked. :smile:

Hmmm, I'd say give it a little more time. If it keeps growing as it is in a week you should probably transplant.

So whatcha going to do if they do end up being all females? :smile:

Lighting

Lighting

CPLs are about 1/4 to 1/3 the brightness and the strength of Horticulture Metal Hallide and High Presure sodiums, CPls are good for seedlings up to no more than a half foot tall, after that they need the metal hallides for adqaute grow.Cpls makes them leggy and with very littie leaf on them.

Lighting

Lighting

Hempkat you might even due better with a 250 watt metal halldie but I suggest to grow one or two planst you are going to need a 425 watt metal hallide amd for bloom a 400 watt high presure sodium. They will do much better with the horticulture lighting than just the 250 CPLs.

Hey Hempkat

Hey Hempkat

Hempkat you can grow for about 2-3 months with floros, I grew the plant below with 2 40 watt shop floros and this plant was a March 2005 seedling and we stuck in back until we could find a wide space to give lots of summer sun, the first picture is in June and the second is in mid October (harvest), this lady was to tall for me to touch the top and to wide for me to put my arms around her. her outdoor yeild was nearly a half a pound, she was grown from seed.

Ole dont jump ship yet... i have seen some very imopressive grows with cfl's that look, smell, and tast better then stuff under hps/mh. dont get me wrong tho i have a 400w mh but i just built a 200w cfl table andi am going to experament with it and see what is better. but dont go and run out and get them both run with what you have first and see if you like it. only time will tell. IF you bought good cfl's as it looks liek you did they should have the right spectrum for growth in all stages. Also when you get to this point growing under cfls require a diff reg or ferts then under hps/Mh but more to that when you get there. just for now stick it out and see what comes out of it. i Know im interested

Hempkat, great posts. Thank you for the information.

x2 on the 'don't give up on CFLs'!!!

Look around this forum and you'll see some impressive results with CFLs

Big Brother said:

Hempkat you might even due better with a 250 watt metal halldie but I suggest to grow one or two planst you are going to need a 425 watt metal hallide amd for bloom a 400 watt high presure sodium. They will do much better with the horticulture lighting than just the 250 CPLs.

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Umm I grow with 2 1000W HID's 1 HPS and 1 MH. I use the MH by itself for veg and then both together for flower to get more of a full spectrum thing going. I think you confused me with Old Gravy Legs. :smile:

ole gravy legs said:

If anyone has any links to a decent HPS beginner setup that would be great. HPS bulbs just seem so much more confusing because you need the ballast and would have to wire everything.

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No you don't have to wire anything. I mean you can get the kind where you have to do the wiring but that's by choice. Most HID lights that are sold online or in hydro stores come with ballast and hood all wired up, you just put in a bulb, plug it in, and away you grow. :smile:

Unfortunately I don't have any good sources to reccommend for lights. I used to, but the guy who owned the business had health issues and had to let his company go out of business.

Hey Ole Gravy Legs,

Looks like you have a good lookin start. I will be watching.

I posted some pics for you on my thread. Sorry it took me so long! Really busy w/ new job!

Anyways, if you need anything else let me know, I would be glad to try and help!

Later,
DRKN_MNKY420

Mrpiston38 said:

Ole dont jump ship yet... i have seen some very imopressive grows with cfl's that look, smell, and tast better then stuff under hps/mh. dont get me wrong tho i have a 400w mh but i just built a 200w cfl table andi am going to experament with it and see what is better. but dont go and run out and get them both run with what you have first and see if you like it. only time will tell. IF you bought good cfl's as it looks liek you did they should have the right spectrum for growth in all stages. Also when you get to this point growing under cfls require a diff reg or ferts then under hps/Mh but more to that when you get there. just for now stick it out and see what comes out of it. i Know im interested

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What do you mean by different reg/ferts? The only difference using CFL's vs HID's should be that the plant is smaller under CFL's usually and therefore doesn't need as much but other then that it should be the same. Different lights don't change the way a plant grows just the rate it grows at. I'm also curious as to what makes you think a plant grown under CFL's is better looking, tasting and smelling. Looking I can see since CFL's don't have the penetration that HId's do but smell and taste are determined by the genetics, not the light.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying CFL's are bad at all. Using the kind that Ole Gravy legs appears to have, when done properly can produce a fine plant, but watt for watt a HID will always be better because it penetrates further which means more of the plant will produce nice dense buds.

There are many unique situations though where a CFL can be superior. For example if you lived in a very hot, dry climatem /cfl's would make a lot more sense. Also if you're forced to grow in very small spaces they make more sense, especially if stealth is a major issue.

If I were Ole Gravy Legs though, I'd keep those CFL's and even get a few more and use them for Veg/Clones/Mothers. One of the nice things about CFL's is you can do a nice long veg to get full maturity and pre-sex seedlings without having a 4 to 5 foot plant going into flower. Even when growing with HID's it's best to not let your plants get much above 3 foot before flowering. Otherwise you'll end up with a plant that's too tall for the light to penetrate effectively and that means the lower branches will have alot of wasted under developed growth in the lower branches. By vegging with CFL's or fluoros you can veg 8 to ten weeks and still have a plant 2 to 3 feet tall which is a perfect size in my opinion to flower with. So like I was saying, I'd keep the CFL's and maybe get a couple more for veg/clones/mothers and then get an HPS HID to flower with. It's cost efficient, you get the best of both worlds, and it makes perpetual gardening much easier if you're into that. As to what size HID? Well that depends on the number of plants you want to flower. The suggested goal for HIDs is 50W per Square foot. I figures the average plant under a HID takes up 2 square feet of floor space which then meands you can use the rule of thumb of 100W per plant. Meaning if you wanted to grow four plants then you would want a 400W. If six plants then a 600W. If 8 to 10 a 1000W. OF course this isn't a hard fast rule because there are different styles of growing, like with SOG you could probably grow 10 times that number because each plant is only a few inches wide and a foot or so tall. Also you can grow 6 or even 8 plants under a 400 but they wouldn't be as nice if you just did 4 and their combined yield would be about the same as the combined yield of the 4 plants. So really in a sense you waste the plant's potential if you grow more plants then a light sould be growing.

ole gravy legs said:

The 2 big CFL's you see are 125W Full spectrum 6500k bulbs. They are the real deal. We have 6 42w full spectrum 6500k bulbs coming in soon as well for the rubbermaid cabinet. We have some 2700k spectrum bulbs for flowering. I am not worried for this first grow We are good to go I think.

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Hmmm, okay sounds like you spent some time researching those bulbs, I was thinking at first you just got lucky. :smile: Just put that same effort into researching the HPS if you want one. You'll do fine. If you got money to work with and are willing to spend it then finding a good light is easy, virtually any online hydro store has them. Thing is if your money is tight then finding a good deal is challenging. There are a number of low cost sources but the lights aren't as nice. One place where you can find cheap lights is eBay, at least you used to be able to find them there.

And if they are 6500K bulbs with blue spectrum, that makes them adequate to vegetative grouth.
125W of that type of lamp translates in max 10.000lumen.
Having 2 of them helps reaching more plants, but the "standard" lumen output will still be 10.000lumen.
Just to make you think, a 250W HPS will put out more than 30.000 lumen with just puts your plants in another "state"!
Only talking about the 250W because if investment is an issue, bigger lamps make you spend more. 400W would be a nice standard for a homegrower!

I know some 250w fluo lamps 2700k red spectrum that claim 20.000lumen... they cost here ~50€.
Remember that chosing between one 1000W or 2 X 400W isnt the same as chosing between one 250W or 2 x 125W... the 10.000lumen output provived by the 125 is well bellow the desired output for flowring... you just dont get that type of luminosity, clarity, wahtever...
I use one 150W fluo for veg, and i thing its a good standard for that... veg small plants and keeping mamas happy.

Go bigger to succeed on you quest!
Good luck!

Well first off, I can't really reccommend a ph meter. I just use the test kits for aquariums where you take a small sample of whatever liquid you are testing and add a couple of drops of a solution that changes the color of the sample and then you compare to a color chart. I know it's not very high tech but it works for me. Using dolomite lime has more or less rendered ph testing a precautionary routine I do from time to time. When using dolomite lime I have yet to have a ph issue. Besides, in my opinion ph issues are mostly either due to the water supply being a bad ph to begin with or from overferting generally occuring when people try to force their plants to be bigger by giving more fertilizer then needed. My water is well water so no added chemicals, and it comes out of the tap at 6.5 to 6.8. To answer the other part of your question, use distilled water is fine to use.

The only comment I have is that you say you hope to veg a couple of weeks, sex the plants and then put them in flower. Good luck on sexing the plants in anything less then 6 weeks. The quickest I've ever seen a plant show it's sex is 5 weeks and that was just one plant out of 20. Most plants take 6 to 8 weeks and some can take even longer.

pH

pH

The aquarium kits are fine for testing your tap water. Honestly, if it's pH 7 or so, I wouldn't even worry about buying a meter.

I am not a power expert but that black tape needs to go dude. Connections get heated black tape gets sloppy and dangerous.

Use standard electrical connectors from your hardware store, you might be using them but I don't know if the connection is done right or not. I just warn using black tape. Especially where power is, electrical tape contrary to the belief isn't used on bare wire.

It's used for fishing wires, and taping NONE power connections together, like a tie strap.

What would be better there is to see the yellow connectors with wires, then TAPE BELOW that to hold in place or use a zip strap, but please don't put black tape on bare wire...! EVERY.

I looked over your pictures better, and maybe this suggestion is better. Tape just below the connection, in the idea to hold the wires in the connector tight, so if a wire comes loose it can't fall out of the connector.

hard to see but kinda more like this


hope this helps buddy.. safety first.