Neem Cake

Hi All,

I've read conflicting stuff about Neem and ended up getting some Neem cake.

A quick question when is best to add Neem cake to soils?


Long version...

I run made soils through three stages of composting.

Is it best to but Neem in at the start and let it compost down or during last stage? - this is when i put final amendments in about four weeks before use.

I'm thinking to add the Neem during the final stage, there is about 9 months between stage one and stage three.

Also I presume Neem cake does compost down over six months, is this correct? I don't want to run the risk of overloading.

To be honest I've fought gnats successfully with hypoaspis Miles and Nematodes, but there are expensive and i have difficulty getting them in the mail.

Thanks all.

Should be *I run my soils through three stages of composting.

not - I run made soils through three stages of composting.

BG

Do NOT use neem cake.


It still has plenty of azadirachtin in it, which is why it makes a good insecticide amendment. Cannabis + azadirachtin is poison and causes Cannabinoid Hypermesis Syndrome 'symptoms'. If you're going to use it, please do not share your cannabis.


Try Gnat Nix for gnats. It's a ground glass product which works like DE. Unlike DE, it works when wet, doesn't float when dry.

Neem anything is bad JUJU

I can’t swear to it but I believe Neem Cake would compost rather quickly. I’m sure someone more knowledgeable than me will confirm. Subscibed to get a final answer.

Douglas.Curtis said:

Do NOT use neem cake.


It still has plenty of azadirachtin in it, which is why it makes a good insecticide amendment. Cannabis + azadirachtin is poison and causes Cannabinoid Hypermesis Syndrome. If you're going to use it, please do not share your cannabis.


Try Gnat Nix for gnats. It's a ground glass product which works like DE. Unlike DE, it works when wet, doesn't float when dry.

Click to expand...

Do you have any documentation related to that claim? I can’t find any documented connection between Neem and CHS. Seems like it’s gotten popular to slam on Neem lately but it’s been used in agriculture for a very long time without any issues. I’m not arguing but I hear people making claims and can never find any documentation. So, it feels more like stoner science more than actual science. To each their own, fo sho! Personally, I’m gonna keep using Neem until I see some sort of scientific proof that there’s a problem with it.

Thanks for the tip on Gnat Nix! Sounds like great product.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Neem+and+CHS&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b
https://steemit.com/cannabis/@drutt...e-chs-is-actually-azadirachtin-neem-poisoning

I would love to see some actual data to support to these anti-neem claims. Not speculation or anecdotal evidence. The most compelling reason to not use neem in my opinion is the fossil fuel cost to get it.

In my experience it is a microbial food source similar to other amendments when you throw it under the microscope.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu0_sgfk_Qc&t=27s

I know in clay soils, amending with neem seed meal is capable of causing CHS symptoms for several seasons.

Just like everything else which has been banned from cannabis use, neem is a product which was tested safe with other plants unrelated plants.

As these other pesticides were bitched about for years( by the growers and users most sensitive to and afflicted by the pesticide + cannabis), they were eventually approved for testing and found unacceptable. A difficult thing under prohibition.

The difference with neem is it's so damn subtle, and people have such varying levels of sensitivity, when combined with it building up in the body over time it's difficult to pinpoint as aza. I can see how those only mildly sensitive would mistake the slowed digestion for having eaten too much potatoes and whatnot. The old football injury flaring up was because you must have stressed it 'or something.'

This isn't some haphazard warning, I've personally experienced it for a decade, and have done the research to prove my theory. I'm waiting for 'the establishment' to pick up on the outcry of mine and other growers who are aware of the truth, so the proper research can be done and people can stop suffering.

Sounds like stoner science to me.. the meal hardly has any azadirachtin in anyway as its mostly all in the oil, which people ingest or use externally medicinally.. plenty of people get this repeated nausea and vomiting from chronic cannabis use with out neem having been used in the growing.. it happened to me for about 3 years and i didnt use neem then.

Neem has been used safely in eastern medicine since the beginning of time and one of its uses is ironically an antiemetic. its one of the most important plants in Ayurveda, millions (probably 100s of millions) take it every day, and ive never come across this kind of thing with its use before.. i also cant find anything substantial on this just a couple case study research pieces of a couple adverse effects from ingestion of the oil.. which is common for anything.

But you can have an adverse effect to any chemical and Neem is a powerful blood tonic and detoxifier so i suppose it could be a cause of emesis especially in patients with swollen spleens and/or parasites, or hypersensitive livers.

Switcher56 said:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Neem+and+CHS&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b
https://steemit.com/cannabis/@drutt...e-chs-is-actually-azadirachtin-neem-poisoning

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Appreciate the link. Respectfully, I see a lot of jumping to conclusions and not much science as it relates to cannabis. No doubt that too much Neem or azadirachtin is a bad thing but I’m having trouble seeing the minute amount absorbed into a bud having much effect and, when it does, it’s on those with particular sensitivities or compromised systems. I can certainly see a niche market for neem-free cannabis for those who suffer those issues but to condemn Neem on the whole for something that might cause a rare issue in some people, at a statistically insignificant level, seems extreme. As one article referenced pointed out, cannabis had been grown and used in Asia for thousands of years with no hint at this issue. What the article conveniently leaves out is that those same cultures regularly used Neem in their agriculture. So, drawing a connection between cannabis grown with Neem products and folks suffering from CHS seems pretty hazy to me. There’s a LOT of supposition and theory here without any direct science that I can see.

There is an awful lot of cannabis being grown with the use of Neem, from oil to cake, that’s being injested by millions and millions of people without any negative effects. If CHS was a widespread issue and there was some conclusive scientific evidence that said it was caused solely and specifically by azadirachtin, I’d be more concerned. So far, though, that’s not the case. But hey, it’s a free world and every grower has to make their own choices. It’s a good thing to know that people have these concerns; so they can make their own informed decisions about how they grow and what products they use. For now, I’m going to remain pro-neem as it’s better than chemical pesticides, imo. I’ve never heard of anyone having CHS except on the internet. I suspect that one of these days California will add Neem to the endless list of things that have to a warning label, like water. Lol. Drinking too much water can kill you. Lol.

In this case the OP was asking about Neem composting. I wonder if composted Neem even has azadirachtin in it after the microbes and maybe the worms get ahold of it?

Canada doesn't allow it, at least not that I saw on the approved pesticide list.

Again, the studies were done with plants which do not absorb and prevent the molecule from breaking down like cannabis does. Fruits and vegetables which are easy to wash, and which expose the aza directly to sun and atmosphere.

When you look at the actions which destroy aza, making it safe to use (since drinking it or applying it is definitely known to be hazardous), and understand why it doesn't happen with cannabis, it's a no brainer not to use it.

At the height of the neem discovery era in India, "Cannabis Sickness" can be seen documented, an illness which has the same symptoms of CHS. At no other time in history, that I've found anyway, have there been cases of CHS until the prolific use of neem on cannabis. History has plenty of examples of lifelong and high concentrate usage for thousands of years, legalization and vaping extracts is nothing new.


The point is made, there's enough evidence to reasonably doubt it's harmlessness. What you do with the information is up to you. I have no doubts my efforts will be well vindicated in time.

We see a lot of GRAS (generally regarded as safe) a term coined by the FDA, and they did the same for Neem.

OTOH, if you google propylene glycol safety, it comes out as GRAS.
Now, google... propylene glycol sensitivity, a whole new kettle of fish crops up.

I am willing to bet that some if not many of the maladies folks suffer from these days, wasn't from the food chain/crop. Do you honestly think the guberment will tell ya?

FWIW, that's why I grow indoors through HEPA filters and, why I gave up placing my Trolical Bonsais outdoors during the summer. TOO MANY pests.

clakamas cootz said it was good to go. neemgate was fake. I use neem meal @ 1/2 cup per cubic foot along with other things. I have recently even planted into this fresh mix as soon as 24 hours. Am on 3 days later and there seem to be no negative effects. I understand not everything will be available, but the ewc/compost recycled soil from previous runs has enough in it that is readily available to give it what it needs until the rest is broken down. Also when you don't have soil sitting for a month and have plants that need to be upotted, transplanting into a fresh mix is better than not transplanting at all. Anyways after 2-3 days all my mixes arent warm to the touch and cool down. I Mix 2 cf at a time.

My Mix

neem has been used in agriculture for 1000's of years...and only recently have cases of CHS been identified...why?

the neem naysayers ignore the one consistent fact in ALL cases of CHS which is chronic cannabis use..as others have stated there is NO evidence linking neem and CHS...

OP, put the neem cake in at the end just before planting into pot; if you go up to a larger pot add more neem cake when upsizing.

My opinion on Cannabis Hypermesis Syndrome is this! It's not caused by neem. Idiots smoke to much weed then ask why can't I inhale smoke 24-7 and not feel lousy?

I would closely relate this Syndrome to Alcohol poisoning; once your body has had enough of you over abusing a substance you get sick from it; and it makes you sick and or reminds you of how sick you got from overuse. Every time you try and reintroduce the substance that you overused back into your daily routine your body has to remind you by getting sick. You're to stupid and your body had to take over and stop you from polluting it to death.
:

wait so if you smoke weed a lot that was grown with neem meal as an amendment then you get sick? I add 1/2 cup per cf, thanks.

I don't believe neem makes you sick! I use Neem and have for many years. The over excessive inhalation of smoke makes you sick.

heatherlonglee said:

OP, put the neem cake in at the end just before planting into pot; if you go up to a larger pot add more neem cake when upsizing.

My opinion on Cannabis Hypermesis Syndrome is this! It's not caused by neem. Idiots smoke to much weed then ask why can't I inhale smoke 24-7 and not feel lousy?

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Seriously? I used my own-grown and other-grown cannabis for 15+ years before moving to neem-central California. When I moved there and used the organic Cali cannabis, CHS reared it's ugly head. Weird I have zero problems with clean cannabis, like I have for 30+ years, and all the same issues with 'tainted.'


What's more, I have been in contact with quite a few people who are now azadirachtin and CHS free. They're getting their lives back through using "Clean" cannabis. You can smoke my clean cannabis 24/7 and have perfectly clear lungs and zero CHS. It's not the cannabis.


Whatever people decide, I'm out of this thread and have said my piece. Go be Awesome! (Edit: Well... ok, I wasn't able to leave the thread)

Douglas.Curtis said:

Seriously? I used my own-grown and other-grown cannabis for 15+ years before moving to neem-central California. When I moved there and used the organic Cali cannabis, CHS reared it's ugly head. Weird I have zero problems with clean cannabis, like I have for 30+ years, and all the same issues with 'tainted.'

You can smoke my clean cannabis 24/7 and have perfectly clear lungs and zero CHS. It's not the cannabis.

Whatever people decide, I'm out of this thread and have said my piece. Go be Awesome!

Click to expand...

OK so my reply has nothing to do with Neem but the fact that you try to say you can smoke your clean cannabis 24/7 and still have clear lungs makes you come off questionable at best. I don’t care that’s it’s cannabis, the fact that you are lighting it on fire and inhaling the smoke will cause you to not have perfectly clear lungs. Along with that perfectly clean cannabinoids you are also inhaling tars and resins that the lungs are designed to handle in more than minute amounts. The amounts you are inhaling even smoking a few bowls a day is far more than the trace amounts your lungs are designed to handle. So by smoking ANYTHING 24/7 you would have far from clear lungs.