Something wicked this way comes

this thread is intended to show the "state of the art" ppk plumbing.

since i started on this journey more than seven years ago the basic operating principles have remained the same but we have all gone through many iterations of plumbing.

most of these, i now realize, were derived from our collective past hydroponic experiences.

but this device does not have the same plumbing needs as other hydro types and needs a unique approach.

we have had clogged lines and tailpieces. with overflows and drowned plants occasionally.

some of the plumbing schemes did not scale up well for larger rooms.

usually we have used large central pumps and hard pvc plumbing and were forced into all kinds of methods of equalizing volume of solution delivered and homogenizing solution ppm and ph so that the system reads the same no matter where you take a reading.

because this is slo-mo-hydro another approach is possible.

what i'm going to attempt to do in this thread is operate a 28 plant facility with plants in every stage of life, from new transplants to harvest, on one body of solution.

steering that solution and changing that solution when necessary by observing ppm and ph trends.

most hydro heads know the plant takes up nutrients selectively dependent upon it's stage of growth.

perhaps we feed a "balanced ratio" not so much for uptake but for the stability of the remaining solution.

if the ratio is really balanced and we have a large number of plants in all stages of life pulling on it simultaneously should the solution not remain stable?

i am using a perpetual scheme but in a larger facility with multiple rooms doing staggered unit grows and a vegetative room i think it would be much the same in regards to overall effect.

first, just a few shots of the veg room showing the general layout. the plumbing is very much an arterial/veinal type of thing in that the only crossover point from the supply side to the plant/drain side is the watering halo. there is an individual pump in each supply bucket. the pumps are eco 185's all fired simultaneously by a repeat cycle timer. the little pumps are remarkably reliable and put out uniform amounts so a simple electrical control achieves the same objective as a big pump with large plumbing and multiple valves.

the pumps are capable of delivering a quart in 15 seconds. the supply buckets act in a surge fashion by holding approximately 2.5 gals at the 7" level. more than enough to guarantee that the supply bucket never runs dry. when they fire and deliver the necessary volume gravity then rapidly equals out the water levels in the system.

it also guarantees positive displacement of solution throughout the system. guaranteeing equal readings.

in the fifth photo are the reservoirs for the whole building. on the floor are 7 of the 55 gal totes which hold approximately 22 gals each at 7". they are plumbed in simple series fashion connected by a single hose between each.

the first photo shows the side by side arrangement in the veg room and the plumbing as well as a complete, loaded module.

then on to the flower room showing the overall layout and the in-line arrangement we use there.

in the third photo you can see the supply and return lines are simply straight runs that do not overlap. no hoses cross over or under other hoses. this is possible because the supply lines are plumbed from one side of the room and the return lines are plumbed from the other side.

you could theoretically plumb a huge room with hundreds of plants in this same manner and still get equal solution readings anywhere in the system.

here the first photo shows the pump arrangement.

then the plant container showing the tom-kap fitting on the top of the tailpiece. it installs in a 3" hole.

then the tailpiece which is a piece of 3" pvc 7" long. top and bottom fittings are held in place by #10x1/2" stainless sheet metal screws. no glues anywhere and it can be knocked apart and packed flat for transport in seconds.

the last in this series shows the bottom fitting. as you can see there is no screen. the tailpiece is packed with xlp perlite only, which will not pass through the grating.

when we used tupur coco we would make a little mound of the xlp on top of the tailpiece about an inch high and 8" in diameter with a screen on top of the xlp but before the coco. this still positively drained the perched water table but prevented much coco fiber from travelling down the tailpiece and clogging the drain.

but now i'm going back to turface cut with xlp perlite and no screen is necessary. still filling the tailpiece with the xlp perlite only and then loading the tuface/perlite mix right on top of it.

flows very freely. i feel the screen itself was responsible for a lot of the clogging incidents as it trapped small particle which then built up to reduce flow.

this shows the plumbing into the first reservoir. two float valves as one could have trouble keeping up with demand.

into this first tank out of sight behind the container is plumbed the return lines from both the veg and flower sides.

the first line against the wall with the elbow is the sole return line from 16 plant sites in flower.

the second line out from the wall is the return line from all the veg sites.

the third line out is the nutrient supply line from the volume/mixing tanks. you will notice a valve in line past the float feed connections. this valve allows you to bypass the floats and load solution at a much higher speed when refilling the system.

there are multiple drain points with valves set up in such a way as to allow partial or total draining of each part of the system. for instance the flower system, veg system, and the reservoirs themselves can all be drained individually or simultaneously as needed.

so we have the nutrient input and the return lines from each part of the system entering reservoir #1 and mixing through all seven tubs before exiting the last in line to supply the plants.

if we are pulsing 1/2 gal every 90 minutes with 28 sites that puts 224 gals per day through the reservoirs.

that's all for now.

Masterful!

So clean simple and refined

Holy Shit!
What a system!!!!Simple....Love it.
One question; how did you get that Good Year pipe to lay so straight?

:jawdrop: Pulling up a chair! This looks like it is going to be insane.

Now that makes sense even to a newb like me. Great job.

Looks like someones been busy!!!

Mr Blah said:

Holy Shit!
What a system!!!!Simple....Love it.
One question; how did you get that Good Year pipe to lay so straight?

Click to expand...

thank you! the hose wants to return to it's original manufactured shape anyway so i lay it out flat, let it come up to temperature, and then pull it, stretching it slightly.

most plastics and rubber have a "molecular" memory and tend to return to the original state.

gmanwho said:

Looks like someones been busy!!!

Click to expand...

actually, all the work you see here in both rooms, including the framing and paneling of the veg room, all electrical and plumbing, was mostly done by one person, my assistant, the Thin Man.

i've gotten to the point where all the little injuries sustained in life are creeping up on me and i am in quite a bit of low grade but continuous pain. nothing specific just all over and i need some help. being legal has it's advantages.

'bout to start popping some beans!

delta9nxs said:

actually, all the work you see here in both rooms, including the framing and paneling of the veg room, all electrical and plumbing, was mostly done by one person, my assistant, the Thin Man.

i've gotten to the point where all the little injuries sustained in life are creeping up on me and i am in quite a bit of low grade but continuous pain. nothing specific just all over and i need some help. being legal has it's advantages.

i had to do everything myself when i lived back in dumbfuckistan.

'bout to start popping some beans!

Click to expand...

well then we must thank the thin man for putting up with the foreman.


what are you gonna be starting for seeds.?? so so many out there now. there are so many good choices too. as much as i would like to see the x c99 crosses in there........ i would actually like to see you pull some packs out of hiding more so. never know what those tired hands are hiding ) less worry on my end too!!


whats your ceiling height in there?

what did you go with for lighting an bulbs??

ac's?

enquiring minds want to know

gmanwho said:

well then we must thank the thin man for putting up with the foreman.


what are you gonna be starting for seeds.?? so so many out there now. there are so many good choices too. as much as i would like to see the x c99 crosses in there........ i would actually like to see you pull some packs out of hiding more so. never know what those tired hands are hiding ) less worry on my end too!!


whats your ceiling height in there?

what did you go with for lighting an bulbs??

ac's?

enquiring minds want to know

Click to expand...

i have a bunch of seed packs i have picked up at events around here. i really don't know much about them but they include th seeds wreckage, marionberry creamer, lord humungus (blue dream x skywalker og x wonkstar), white master kush x monster cookies, dj shorts grape crush and his whitaker blues. a vial full of some kind of pakistani, and of course the c-99 crosses. but i have some tga subcool stuff and some crockett family farm stuff. i have karma walk (lemon walker x karma bitch) from propa seeds in my dirty hands too.

also been loading clones as fast as i can get them. quite a few ppk users here now and they have been very kind letting me walk through their rooms with scissors.

these rooms here are my personal spaces. i have spent most of my time here so far designing other folks rooms so this is like my special place.

the veg room has 9' ceilings, the flower room has a pitched roof going from 11'6" to 13'6".

i have been buying used sunlight supply ac/de fixtures most with one run on them because the folks that bought them were trying to flower with them in 8' rooms and burnt the shit out of their plants.

these lights are a whole different class of plant lighting compared to mogul socket hps.

i have a par meter and am getting some incredible readings. i think these fixtures are probably the best for putting a square footprint evenly onto a 5x5.

with that in mind i'm going to go horizontal scrog for the first time in 12 years.

i've got some learning to do!

the rooms are cooled with 7 25000 btu window shakers that exhaust into the air space around the veg room. it's about 4000 cu ft and has can fans with ducting for intake and 3 powered roof vent fans at the apex controlled with thermostats for exhaust.

the ac's are sears kenmore elites which are fridgidairs. 600 each but i got the extended 3 year warranty for another 175 each as it forces a sears tech to come to the site for repairs. because they are not really worth the tech's time repairing they just replace them.

both rooms are well sealed and hold co2 nicely.

i want to run this facility on a perpetual schedule so i've got a 3 month sequence loading a few plants at a time. that will be challenging as i will be changing settings daily to maintain temps and rh.

once fully loaded it should run very stable as the approx plant mass will never change.

i don't use master controllers as i have found that i can balance rooms using the various devices face controls.

i read you mentioning nutrient injectors. they are not necessary and may actually be detrimental in a ppk.

i have been operating reservoirs using the principle of "mass balance" for years now with no symptoms or displays.

here is a link to dr bugbee's paper on the subject;

https://www.researchgate.net/public...anagement_in_recirculating_hydroponic_culture

in the ppk we start with a body of nutrients at the original npk ratio and then replenish with the original npk ratio. it takes a long time for the ratio to become unbalanced. you can observe the ph and when it becomes hard to keep it under about 6.5 a total changeout is due.

bugbee suggests that trying to maintain the solution at the original concentration could lead to antagonism's or stimulations as it is normal for a percentage of n-p-k to be missing from the solution as these 3, especially, are being taken up at high speed by the plants.

in other words, if you were monitoring the solution for individual elements and finding some elements in the recirculating part lower than your input it is simply a sign of healthy plants feeding.

room sounds amazing. good work.

read some of bugabees paper, my attention span lately to process multiple pages of info is pretty much about 5-8 minutes lately. skimmed thru some of the article..... an sounds to me like he was growing lettuce or some other vegatable. if or where he states his relation to growing is to like feeding the pet dog,as it eats the same every day. which couldnt be further from the truth.

but getting the new plants to consume what the mid later flowering doesnt want is gonna be your high wire act. i think it would work. an think its a great approach.

after reading what i could , i thought growing under some older lighting to todays lighting is like feeding your family couch dog vs a mushing dog.

that balance would be some cosmic shit right there..

happy new year.... love the setup. im along for the ride. i'd love for you to teach me the mass balance. im alll ears buddy...

i don't know how qualified i am to teach the subject but i think i can demonstrate it. we'll see.

for those interested the 50/50 by volume of cleaned but not screened turface mvp and cleaned perlite xlp grade came out to 38.8% air filled porosity.

on the upper end of the preferred range of 30-40% but may prove to be beneficial later as they grow.

with the tailpiece packed with the xlp over the grating and the 38.8% afp i don't expect to have to deal with any failures to drain.

Hey D9 don't mean to bug you but what air gap do you run with a 7gal top, 3.5gal bottom with a 3" tailpiece filled with chunky perlite and tupur for the media in the tub? I've ran a 4", 5" and even tried a 6" air gap and they all seem to keep the tupur really wet. Like I can barely tell a difference in wetness. I pulse feed about a quart or maybe a lil more every 90 minutes, i have zero drainage issues. Plants all look amazing I just wondered if you knew better for that setup. Thank you for sharing this amazing growing technique!!

TurboCharged said:

Hey D9 don't mean to bug you but what air gap do you run with a 7gal top, 3.5gal bottom with a 3" tailpiece filled with chunky perlite and tupur for the media in the tub? I've ran a 4", 5" and even tried a 6" air gap and they all seem to keep the tupur really wet. Like I can barely tell a difference in wetness. I pulse feed about a quart or maybe a lil more every 90 minutes, i have zero drainage issues. Plants all look amazing I just wondered if you knew better for that setup. Thank you for sharing this amazing growing technique!!

Click to expand...

howdy! we ran 4.5-5" with tupur. coco in general has the greatest capillary rise of any substrate i know of. 7-8" or more. and the greatest retention. it holds water like a sponge until the matric potential is met. if your plants look good you've got it but if they start showing any yellowing from the bottom up you might change the interval from 90 min to 2 hours.

and you're welcome!

delta9nxs said:

howdy! we ran 4.5-5" with tupur. coco in general has the greatest capillary rise of any substrate i know of. 7-8" or more. and the greatest retention. it holds water like a sponge until the matric potential is met. if your plants look good you've got it but if they start showing any yellowing from the bottom up you might change the interval from 90 min to 2 hours.

and you're welcome!

Click to expand...

Thank you! I have been around for a long time so I have tried pretty much everything under the sun and PPK is some of the most interesting growth I have ever seen. I'm at week 7 in veg and I have roughly 3' x 3' BUSHES of 100% happy plants! Flipping them in a week. Couple strains have stupid stretch and one throwns crazy chunks so pretty much I'm going for monsters. Btw this is my first PPK run, I did my research for a while to truly grasp the whole concept for what it was to what it became. Slowly gathered the RIGHT parts. I didn't cut corners and now it's almost running too good to be true, but really from everything I learned from doing reading on them I'm not that surprised at what I'm seeing.

Again thank you everyone for paving the way here!