Help,Advice, Opinions on Rusty leaves and yellow new Growth.

BP75 · Jun 2, 2016

This is 7weeks from breaking ground...

they growd slowly first weeks but then took off...
i was feeding with tap water of 280ppm and slowly building with nutes truying to give them what they needed without burning them and they reacted well...
last five feedings i used R/O water and was giving them 450ppm of GH
(5ml Micro+5ml Grow+2.5ml Bloom+4mlCalMag) CalMag has a N-P-K rate of 2-0-0..
Temp on the tent is from 71-80 F and R.Humidity ranges from 50%-80% but most of the time is around 60%.
They are under 200W of led cobs.
New Growth slowly started to go Yellow and looks to me like the growth has Slowed Down.
Some leaves on the Dinafem Cheese are showing RUSTY spots
IS THIS SOME KIND OF DEFICIENCY?
DO THEY JUST NEED MORE FOOD?
WHAT WOULD YOU DO GUYS TO GET THEM STRONG AND HEALTHY BEFORE FLIPING TO 12/12
Overall healthier baby Blue Cheese

Dinafem Cheese with Rusty spots

Close up of problem...

Any Help or advice would be really appreciated...
Thanks!

mjlifestyle · Jun 2, 2016

Just to get the ball rolling... what's your pH going in? To me it looks like a Ca lockout issue. Maybe a flush with pH water would be in order. It's a bit weird that the other plant looks fine, but that is the case now, maybe she's a bit more resilient and takes her a bit more to show the same symptoms. But, like I said, just to get the ball rolling, as I know zilch about hydro

BP75 · Jun 2, 2016

mjlifestyle said:
Just to get the ball rolling... what's your pH going in? To me it looks like a Ca lockout issue. Maybe a flush with pH water would be in order. It's a bit weird that the other plant looks fine, but that is the case now, maybe she's a bit more resilient and takes her a bit more to show the same symptoms. But, like I said, just to get the ball rolling, as I know zilch about hydro

Thank you for participating man... i believe that it shoul be a question of Ca def. at this point. my ph is always measured @ 6.7-6.9 and runoff is ok. my experience does not let me come up with an accurate diagnosis but... since everything started when i started using R/O water and also not giving the recomanded dose of cal-mag( i thought half dose was enough to start with) i believe it is a deficiency of ca. i did not have this issue when using tap water(which comes @280ppm)... also most probably they need more food...they are growing and 450ppm is not enough anymore...this is my 2c but i am open to advice from more experienced fellas...
i fed tonight 580ppm and full dose of calmag....let see the reaction. will let you know. Thanks

BP75 · Jun 2, 2016

BP75 said:
Thank you for participating man... i believe that it shoul be a question of Ca def. at this point. my ph is always measured @ 6.7-6.9 and runoff is ok. my experience does not let me come up with an accurate diagnosis but... since everything started when i started using R/O water and also not giving the recomanded dose of cal-mag( i thought half dose was enough to start with) i believe it is a deficiency of ca. i did not have this issue when using tap water(which comes @280ppm)... also most probably they need more food...they are growing and 450ppm is not enough anymore...this is my 2c but i am open to advice from more experienced fellas...
i fed tonight 580ppm and full dose of calmag....let see the reaction. will let you know. Thanks

...i meant 5.7-5.9PH :biggrin:

mjlifestyle · Jun 2, 2016

As I said, I don't know shit about hydro, but I'm guessing at 7 weeks old they should handle full veg dose of everything, hydro or not, since they really have some mass, they're not babies anymore. Good luck!

Kweku Ananse · Jun 3, 2016

What is your substrate? Coco?

If so, then definitely always Cal mag full "dose"

Also, try 5.7 pH, not 5.7-5.9

Just 5.7

I would NEVER go over 5.8 in veg, in any hydro medium that I've used.

If they are over 1 foot tall then your approx. 600 ppm includig Cal mag should be good until you flip without deficiency.

If I were you I would add Cal mag to your r/o, until you reach the approx ppm of your tap (which is mostly Cal, and you had no issues back then)

Personally I go for a base of 225ppm (r/o+calmag) to 275ppm depending on which brand of a/b (some have a bit of calcium already) and the nitrogen profile of my calmag supplement (1-0-0 vs 2-0-0 vs 4-0-0) being a Cal nitrate vs a Cal carbonate, and also how far along I've been in these containers, as coco will eventually reach a sweet spot for cec with the calcium, and can usually taper off from there (maybe wk 6+ in flower, taper off the calcium)

BP75 · Jun 3, 2016

Great resume Kweku...

Great resume Kweku...

Kweku Ananse said:
What is your substrate? Coco?

If so, then definitely always Cal mag full "dose"

Also, try 5.7 pH, not 5.7-5.9

Just 5.7

I would NEVER go over 5.8 in veg, in any hydro medium that I've used.

If they are over 1 foot tall then your approx. 600 ppm includig Cal mag should be good until you flip without deficiency.

If I were you I would add Cal mag to your r/o, until you reach the approx ppm of your tap (which is mostly Cal, and you had no issues back then)

Personally I go for a base of 225ppm (r/o+calmag) to 275ppm depending on which brand of a/b (some have a bit of calcium already) and the nitrogen profile of my calmag supplement (1-0-0 vs 2-0-0 vs 4-0-0) being a Cal nitrate vs a Cal carbonate, and also how far along I've been in these containers, as coco will eventually reach a sweet spot for cec with the calcium, and can usually taper off from there (maybe wk 6+ in flower, taper off the calcium)

Thanks man... really enjoyed your post.
i was thinking the same but you know i lack some experience and thus i don't trust my instict always cause i am afraid of damaging them...
i totally agree with you. i gave a full dose of calmag and nutes yesterday and also foliar fed them...today they just look better...

Next feeding will be more than 580ppm with 5.7PH as you recommend.

Kweku Ananse · Jun 4, 2016

Word, I see you also found my post about my approx. Weekly ppms in flower. Less is best (ppm) seems to be a common theme with coco growers.

When I first saw that pic, looked like a high pH in soil... so I'd def lower the pH

good luck with that. I wouldn't bother with foliar Cal mag anymore, just asking for issues. At that base ppm, the Cal mag in your rootzone will be enough to replace cations in the coco and nourish the micronutrient requiremnts of the plant.

Keep us posted in the next couple days, I would think you won't see any more deficiencies. A lot of the time, when using proven hydro formulas, deficincies are cured by increasing ppm. (not too much or you'll burn of course!)

jump /injack · Jun 4, 2016

I had the same problem, it looked just like yours with that damn rust colored spot. I was using coco that I'd used before but had washed several times. I flushed the coco with water two more times and went back to 1/4 of nutes. It was from a seed that I'd made about 5 years ago, I attributed it to that somehow. Seems to be stunted now with arrested growth, will keep it around until it start growing again and try to flower it out. Had just made a nutrient change like you did. Was using Jacks which I think is fool proof. I was thinking it was a nutrient burn

BP75 · Jun 6, 2016

Rehabilitation started on girls...

Rehabilitation started on girls...

Kweku Ananse said:
Word, I see you also found my post about my approx. Weekly ppms in flower. Less is best (ppm) seems to be a common theme with coco growers.

When I first saw that pic, looked like a high pH in soil... so I'd def lower the pH good luck with that. I wouldn't bother with foliar Cal mag anymore, just asking for issues. At that base ppm, the Cal mag in your rootzone will be enough to replace cations in the coco and nourish the micronutrient requiremnts of the plant.

Keep us posted in the next couple days, I would think you won't see any more deficiencies. A lot of the time, when using proven hydro formulas, deficincies are cured by increasing ppm. (not too much or you'll burn of course!)

This is the situation today....

i just fed them 4l each of 660ppm nute solution with 5.75PH...
i thought i would have a little bit more runoff but they were really thirsty.
Anyway the lady on the left gave a 615ppm & 5.95PH runoff
and the lady on the right gave 535ppm & 5.7PH runoff.
Next time i will feed them a day earlier and give them enough water so i get like 30%runoff to get them washed a little bit better with the new solution... is this necessary??? or not???
Temps are perfect...RH also is really good between 55%-75%, there is a lot of air flow on canopy and in the tent...
They look better overall...

This is old damaged leaves...

and since last time i LST-ed a little more and tried some super cropping on some of the branches.

Next i plan to install a scrog cause my first grow i couldn't...or better i installed it late and took it of since they did not stretch past it like i wanted them...
Any Tips or Advice??? Throw everything you got... i need as much opinions as you can... :biggrin:

Thank's everybody for helping and especially you Kweku.

Bwanabud · Jun 6, 2016

I build all my scrog racks out of 3/4" pvc pipe & weed whacker line.....the .080 size I think.
Drill holes in the pipe at 3" spacing, leave a tad of play in the line to help fish branches thru, weave the line over, under, over, itself etc...I put collars on the bottom of each leg, then have 4", 6", 8" extensions of pvc,,,as the plant stretches I can boost the rack easily in height. My plants only gain 6-8" in height after stretch & weaving in rack.

I've got a million pictures somewhere

Kweku Ananse · Jun 6, 2016

BP75 said:
This is the situation today....
View attachment 366185

i just fed them 4l each of 660ppm nute solution with 5.75PH...
i thought i would have a little bit more runoff but they were really thirsty.
Anyway the lady on the left gave a 615ppm & 5.95PH runoff
and the lady on the right gave 535ppm & 5.7PH runoff.
Next time i will feed them a day earlier and give them enough water so i get like 30%runoff to get them washed a little bit better with the new solution... is this necessary??? or not???
Temps are perfect...RH also is really good between 55%-75%, there is a lot of air flow on canopy and in the tent...
They look better overall...
View attachment 366186
This is old damaged leaves...
View attachment 366187
and since last time i LST-ed a little more and tried some super cropping on some of the branches.
View attachment 366188
Next i plan to install a scrog cause my first grow i couldn't...or better i installed it late and took it of since they did not stretch past it like i wanted them...
Any Tips or Advice??? Throw everything you got... i need as much opinions as you can...
Thank's everybody for helping and especially you Kweku.

I think your plan sounds good here. I'm all about runoff when using synth ferts in coco

BP75 · Jun 9, 2016

Hello guys...
update... fed them aprox. 1 gallon each of 700ppm nute solution @ 5.75PH.
Got some 30% runoff from both...

blue cheese on the left gave 566ppm runoff @ 6,2PH (didn't like this difference on ph...will try to get it down)

Dinafem cheese on the right gave 560ppm @ 5.75PH (it's obvious they drink differently)... should i adapt the water to each of them or i can give them the same mix of nutes???

i plan to install a scrog screen soon...let them grow a little through the screen and flip them to 12/12, what do you think?
how do they look? i have the impression they are not 100% healthy.
even though i'm sure they would produce if i flip them right now...i would like to have a better quality compared to my first grow...

Thanks everyone for your time.

BP75 · Jun 11, 2016

I'm in doubt...To flower or not??? Scrog or no scrog?

I'm in doubt...To flower or not??? Scrog or no scrog?

-Hi guys, i just watered the ladies today... pots were really light...they really need water much more frequently...i'll go for every other day from next feeding even though probably every day feeding will be necessary really soon.
Overall they look better... what do you think???

i still feel i can do better in terms of keeping them healthier...

i was asking myself if it is time to flip them to flower since they are at a good point but i really wanted to scrog them so i am a little undecided.... they are not that tall as you can see...

and i put my screen anyway...my idea is to let them grow about 5 to 7 days more and then flip...keeping the scrog obviously but maybe some tips and some advice would help me get a better decision.
with the screen...

Thanks for investing your time in this thread.
Cheers to all :wave:

mjlifestyle · Jun 11, 2016

Those girls look healthy and green man, stop stressing about it for now

As for flipping with a scrog screen, as far as I know it's best to flip them (efficiency wise) only after you've filled your screen entirely and managed to get them to a level canopy. If you're not in a rush, take your time to fill the screen, no point in rushing with scrog. Also, after they get a bit taller you should remove anything that just grows under the screen with no access to the light.

Old Fogey · Jun 11, 2016

It's a Cal/Mag/Iron deficiency and it is caused by your PH being off.

If you are using RO water you should do some research into it. RO isn't easy to set the PH on.

I would go back to using the tap water. OK, it has high ppm, but you know that and you can compensate.

Add some CaliMagic at the recommended dose and you'll see an improvement in a few days.

You might also care to use some fulvic or humic acid alongside your regular nutrient schedule of you are going to be using relatively heavy water.

Most heavy water has large amounts of Calcium and Magnesium in a form that isn't available to cannabis plants. And because it is in the water in excessive amounts it can cause lockout of those nutrients by blocking the pathways for more digestible forms of these essential minerals.

Fulvic and humic acids attach to these indigestible lumps and move them about in the root system which then causes them to be available to the plant.

Be careful though, it will also free up any other heavy molecules in the root system and if you use too much you may induce toxicity of things like zinc, copper etc etc. With fulvic and humic acid a little goes a long way.

With PH you should be aiming to keep it in the range of 5.5 - 6.5 with ideal 5.8 - 6.2. Fluctuation within the 5.8 - 6.2 range is good and should be allowed to occur in the res if running a recirculating feeding system such as in a flood and drain tray.

So, to fix your grow:

Flush thoroughly with a 1/8th strength bloom solution PH'd to 6.0

Soon after flush, feed at;

1/2 strength nutrients

Full strength Cal/Mag/Iron supplement

Add some Epsom salts to your watering regime (you will need to look up the info on this, I didn't need to go that far when I had the same problem you're having).

1/4 - 1/2 recommended strength of a fulvic acid or humic acid product

Set PH at the recommended level for the nutrients and growing medium and feed at normal rates for several days until improvement is established.

Then slowly increase nutrient levels in the following days and weeks until you find the sweet spot, remembering to include Cal/Mag/Iron supplements and perhaps some fulvic/humic acid and you should be fine so long as you maintain your PH in the range 5.5 - 6.5 and you will be sure to have good results if you maintain it withing the range of 5.8 - 6.2.

If this problem persists after a fortnight of correct PH and Cal/Mag/Iron supplements I will suggest you do some research into using RO correctly. But personally I'd regard RO as being a last resort, I see no reason why you can't work with the water you have if you know what you're doing.

Check out info on Hard Water and you'll be able to overcome this issue if the above cure doesn't work.

Anyway, give the CalMag a week and I'm sure you'll be back on track.

Peace

BP75 · Jun 11, 2016

Contemplating...

Contemplating...

mjlifestyle said:
Those girls look healthy and green man, stop stressing about it for now

As for flipping with a scrog screen, as far as I know it's best to flip them (efficiency wise) only after you've filled your screen entirely and managed to get them to a level canopy. If you're not in a rush, take your time to fill the screen, no point in rushing with scrog. Also, after they get a bit taller you should remove anything that just grows under the screen with no access to the light.

Hello MJ,
i think they look good to :biggrin:

. that was my idea about scroging to but someone advised to flip them immediately and not to scrog since i already had a very even canopy...
i think this will change after switching to flower during the strech and that would be much easier keeping an even canopy with a scrog rather than with lst-ing every branch...

Old Fogey said:
It's a Cal/Mag/Iron deficiency and it is caused by your PH being off.

If you are using RO water you should do some research into it. RO isn't easy to set the PH on.

I would go back to using the tap water. OK, it has high ppm, but you know that and you can compensate.

Add some CaliMagic at the recommended dose and you'll see an improvement in a few days.

You might also care to use some fulvic or humic acid alongside your regular nutrient schedule of you are going to be using relatively heavy water.

Most heavy water has large amounts of Calcium and Magnesium in a form that isn't available to cannabis plants. And because it is in the water in excessive amounts it can cause lockout of those nutrients by blocking the pathways for more digestible forms of these essential minerals.

Fulvic and humic acids attach to these indigestible lumps and move them about in the root system which then causes them to be available to the plant.

Be careful though, it will also free up any other heavy molecules in the root system and if you use too much you may induce toxicity of things like zinc, copper etc etc. With fulvic and humic acid a little goes a long way.

With PH you should be aiming to keep it in the range of 5.5 - 6.5 with ideal 5.8 - 6.2. Fluctuation within the 5.8 - 6.2 range is good and should be allowed to occur in the res if running a recirculating feeding system such as in a flood and drain tray.

So, to fix your grow:

Flush thoroughly with a 1/8th strength bloom solution PH'd to 6.0

Soon after flush, feed at;

1/2 strength nutrients

Full strength Cal/Mag/Iron supplement

Add some Epsom salts to your watering regime (you will need to look up the info on this, I didn't need to go that far when I had the same problem you're having).

1/4 - 1/2 recommended strength of a fulvic acid or humic acid product

Set PH at the recommended level for the nutrients and growing medium and feed at normal rates for several days until improvement is established.

Then slowly increase nutrient levels in the following days and weeks until you find the sweet spot, remembering to include Cal/Mag/Iron supplements and perhaps some fulvic/humic acid and you should be fine so long as you maintain your PH in the range 5.5 - 6.5 and you will be sure to have good results if you maintain it withing the range of 5.8 - 6.2.

If this problem persists after a fortnight of correct PH and Cal/Mag/Iron supplements I will suggest you do some research into using RO correctly. But personally I'd regard RO as being a last resort, I see no reason why you can't work with the water you have if you know what you're doing.

Check out info on Hard Water and you'll be able to overcome this issue if the above cure doesn't work.

Anyway, give the CalMag a week and I'm sure you'll be back on track.

Peace

Hello old fogey,
thanks for participating.
in the beginning it was a little bit of cal-mag def...and maybe iron you are right...but ph has always been spot on..double checked...with a ph meter and also with the GH ph kit. so even though i've noticed that ph of r/o water is hard to regulate i think ph has been good. also runoff has always been good between 5.6-6PH.
anyway...i just began to use tap water again and they have taken fulvic and humic acid with every watering... now i am using always less and less...
you think they still need to be flushed ??? i was saving this for when i would flip to flower.... i thought they were doing good for now...i still think they don't need major adjustments apart from more frequent watering at a slightly smaller ppm nute concentration since temps are rising a little this will help them drink more but light food...
what you guys think???? :tiphat:

BP75 · Jun 14, 2016

Time for an UPDATE....:clap:
Overall Health Is Good in my opinion..

just about to flip to 12/12 but noticed some familiar leaf necrosis...
i had seen some small flying insects in the tent which were quick motherfuckers...just a few of them...bought an insecticide from local store and used some weeks ago...today saw them again...and sprayed again...will repeat in a few days but i can't identify this bastards...

are they fungus gnats????

or are they some kind of winged aphid????

can they cause this damage...or is this nute related... or possibly PH related????
this is happening only to this one leaf for now...strange...

same leaf...what is strange is that only this leaf has this kind of damage... controlled all the plant and saw nothing else fortunately ...

i saw this kind of damage my first grow also...it turned out not that bad considering the errors that i made...
This is a link to my DIY Led Drone and its performance: http://rollitup.org/t/first-diy-growled-and-help-needed.866207/page-3

I'm Finding it hard to understand when to flip to flower... this scrog is making me go crazy...
it looks like i have to wait a little bit more... but then i think that they will stretch... i really need some input regarding this topic...

thank u guys...

mjlifestyle · Jun 14, 2016

The point of a scrog grow (well, one of them) is that you won't have almost any vertical growth over a certain point above the screen until you flip. So if you decide to flip after the entire screen is filled with growth shoots, you should push all your stems (main, secondary etc) towards the edges. That way almost all growth is going sideways, not up, in order to fill the screen with green. After you fill the whole screen, you can wait a bit for the small shots to get some maturity (just 5-10 inches above the screen) and then flip. So this way it wouldn't really matter how long you keep them in veg, as almost no growth will get past a few inches above the screen.

That's the theory, anyways

I was planning on scrogging myself, but switched to mainlining at the last moment, because of convenience (watering would be more difficult with my setup and other things). The main idea is to make extensive use of your screen, i.e. force lateral growth until you have (almost) no space left to fill.

BP75 · Jun 16, 2016

Flipping tomorrow...flower time...

Flipping tomorrow...flower time...

Time for an update...
just flipped the timers...tomorrow is day 1 of flower...
just finished some maintenance on the scrog...
came to the conclusion that flowering now is the best option , i don't know how they will stretch ... but i think it is time to flower...
it was really difficult getting those branches at the right places and moving around...but this is the result.

will work consistently these firsts week to keep an even canopy...

i also defoliated a little and lollipoped branches... overall they look healthy... and i'm curios myself to see how these girls will turn out...whats sure is they will get maximum attention...

Now there is more light penetrating the canopy and i tried not to create holes through it by removing to much leaves...

thanks for the help guys... :tiphat:

Cheers

Help,Advice, Opinions on Rusty leaves and yellow new Growth.

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