Wilting and Eagle Claw in Veg

I am experiencing pretty extreme wilting and eagle claw. I have just concluded week 3 of veg. Had intended to flip to 12/12 sooner, but I want to resolve this issue and regain strong growth before flipping.

Affected Strain: Fire OG and Headband
Unaffected Strain: ChemDog4 in same tray being fed with same solution as the OGs.
Medium: Recycled Coco
Nutrients: Cutting Edge Solutions. I did add 1ml of verde in last weeks res change.

My initial thought was nitrogen toxicity, but it is only effecting the OG. Also, 1 ml of Verde in addition to the base nutes during veg does not seem like too much N. I have used on ml of Verde in veg with no ill effects plenty of times. The leaves feel slightly hardened in their positions.

I was experiencing wilting before the Eagle Claw came on. I attributed that to overwatering. I stopped feeding and let the pots dry out a little bit. Now this.

I should add the runoff ph was a little high after the last feeding. ph6.2 before feed with roughly 6.8 runoff.

Do OGs require lower PPM? Do they not like to be fed and watered daily?

With a too high pH you'll get nute block.

You shouldn't water your plants daily they will die, the roots will suffocate. Water them when the plant asks for it. Water them once and let them till they start to show signs of dehydration, then it's the moment to give them water.

Some strains are easily overfed compared to others. Don't follow the lines on the label of your nutes just start of with 15-20% and build it up. After a while you will know how much nute to give them without any problems. Good luck.

over watered don't water again till they dont look like that. stop feeding till they look like they need it

Fyi, I have only watered these girls 4-5 in there three week lives. Would you suggest flushing to lower the ppm and ph levels in the coco and then let dry for a while or would you allow for them to dry with high ppm and ph levels?

Also, what do you think about my waiting to flip 12/12 until the plants get through this stress? Does it make sense or will they be fine if I flip now and allow them to get through the stress while adjusting to the bloom cycle?

Thanks so much. This community kicks ass.

I hate to bump my own post, but I'd really appreciate any other thoughts on this. Have you ever seen eagle claw from overwatering?

Before

after.

you've basically gone from way too much in one direction to way too much in the other direction. don't you know how to read leaves?

nothing personal against you but on OG you used to have to read through a whole grow manual before you were allowed to post. i think they should have copied that here. basic information in there you would have known already.

i'd advise you read this thread completely, before going any further.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=11688


underwatered plant left.

overwatered.

stop watering your plants (SO MUCH) till the leaves look like the plant on the right in the above photo. or until you see new green growth start coming out again. it's possible those leaves won't straighten out. when i say new green growth coming out, i mean in the morning one day you see a little nub sprouting and by the next morning it's a full leaf almost or fully open.

to clarify, only water your plants the LEAST AMOUNT till they recover. you need to water very lightly right in the middle where the stem is ONLY till the rest of the pot is sufficiently dried out enough for the roots to grow again. right now they're down there drowning and dying. nothing you can do about that now. just let em dry out some and don't make the damage worse. the more you water before the old dead/dying roots are broken off from the main branch and they've resumed growing. all you do is make it easier for bacteria to thrive and kill your plants.

you ever seen wilting green mushy vegetables in the fridge? thats what your roots are doing when they soak in water without getting any oxygen. they're slowly turning into mush. if you don't let em dry out, crust up and grow new roots you just continue slowly making mush.

bigdog123 said:

Fyi, I have only watered these girls 4-5 in there three week lives. Would you suggest flushing to lower the ppm and ph levels in the coco and then let dry for a while or would you allow for them to dry with high ppm and ph levels?

Also, what do you think about my waiting to flip 12/12 until the plants get through this stress? Does it make sense or will they be fine if I flip now and allow them to get through the stress while adjusting to the bloom cycle?

Thanks so much. This community kicks ass.

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I would decrease the amount of water you're giving them. If you water them then just wait for a couple days till you see light signs of dehydration, then it's time to water them again.

I would let them dry for a couple days until you see signs of dehydration. Then continue to give them water like you did and repeat the step again (wait for a couple days). It wont take long before you know how many days to wait to water them. Or you can buy a moist meter you put this in the growing medium and it will tell you when to water. I don't recommend it because this is a waste of money and the quality of those meters is just crap.

It's even good for the roots to let the soil become a little bit dry because the roots will search for water so they will become bigger the bigger your roots the bigger your plants.

I wouldn't flip them now to 12/12 just take care of this problem first, if you solve it then switch to 12/12. If this happens in 12/12 the yield will decrease dramatically because the plant didn't put all her energy in bud producing.

How many liter are those pots?? And how much water do you give them?

you've basically gone from way too much in one direction to way too much in the other direction. don't you know how to read leaves?

nothing personal against you but on OG you used to have to read through a whole grow manual before you were allowed to post. i think they should have copied that here. basic information in there you would have known already.

Click to expand...

Really dude? REALLY? This is a help forum for asking general questions about growing and your first port of call is to insult the guy, talk down to him like your belittling him and then have the cheek to think that prefacing it with "nothing personal against you but..." like that makes it all better?

Here, lets try it....

Hey stihgnobevoli, NOTHING PERSONAL BUT.... you come across as an arrogant, self-opinionated, self-righteous prick who talks down to people in a HELP FORUM like your some special shit. GET OVER YOURSELF.

Now. did prefacing it with "nothing personal but..." change the fact it was still insulting? NO it didnt. so Don't go around doing it to others eh?


In future how about adding the help without the ego? without the belittling attitude or the self-righteous prick-ness of saying people should go away and read a bible of bullshit (most of which is out of date of irrelevant) before they can ask questions, cus seriously, who the fuck do you think you are? lol....


But remember dude.... "its nothing personal... but...."

that's because i'm all those thing. doesn't change the fact that if he had read over the sick plants thread one of the required readings on OG before you can post he would have recognized his issue before it got so bad. askin him if he knows how to read leaves is not insulting him. did i call any names? i simply asked if he knew how to read the leaves and if not i gave him a link to the sick plants thread and advised he read all of it before proceeding.

i can take all the stabs in the dark from my computer but he's right there with his plants and will have the best idea of whats going on.

sorry it hurt your butt so much. nothing personal. also he posted another thread a week ago i told him what it most likely was based on what he presented. which was dry spots his plant was wilting but there were roots growing through the bag. in one spot only and it wasn't the bottom. diagnosis. only that part of the bag is moist, the rest is dry.

he has now overwatered the plants by going too much in the opposite direction. sorry once again for hurting your butt. i didn't think you would be so offended.

He is growing in coco. You should never let coco dry out. The ph should be around 5.8. You should never water coco with plain water.

I would mix up some 1/4 strength fert solution ph'd to 5.8 and flush each one until you get a big amount of runoff.

Then I would water every day with same strength mix. Weak solutions every day is what I do when I occasionally use coco.

When you had your last run did you do everything the same as you are now? Same ph?

Thats correct u never want ur coco dry but right after transplant or immature younger plants with small root system u should lettem dry out somewhat ... if they are soaked with no roots it chokes them out...

In another thread I was recommended to use 29% H2O2 at 2ml per gal to kill bacteria caused by root rot. What do you guys think about that idea? Do you think this will be beneficial in this case?

Pots are 2-3 gallons. I've only fed them 5 times in nearly 4 weeks. Last time I watered was 7 days ago and they are getting pretty light. I want to make sure I don't waste the opportunity to feed them. If H2O2 is going to help I want to make sure I get it in there this feeding. I do use mycorrhizae, but I can reinoculate after I address this issue, if it will benefit the plant in the long run.

Include h202 and combat potential bacteria harming the roots or feed a diluted nute solution including more mycorrhizae and cannazyme?

No dont add that.... if the pots are light now water them with 180ppms of calmag.... thats approx 2.5ml a gal root excel or i switched to rapid start ...n some zymes i use sensizyme at 5ml... DON'T SOAK THE PLANTS YET!!!!! water lightly around the sides of the pot... id say 1/3 -1/4gallon per 3gallon pot...u want whatever healthy roots u have to spread out n search for the water

stoney917 said:

No dont add that.... if the pots are light now water them with 180ppms of calmag.... thats approx 2.5ml a gal root excel or i switched to rapid start ...n some zymes i use sensizyme at 5ml... DON'T SOAK THE PLANTS YET!!!!! water lightly around the sides of the pot... id say 1/3 -1/4gallon per 3gallon pot...u want whatever healthy roots u have to spread out n search for the water

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Ok so Stoney bro I respect your a vet on here but im guessing your knocking h202 because you havent used it ?? Also I dont think the cal mag is the issue here think its the rough watering/transplanting thats doing the damage

in this situation I would def rec. using it he def needs oxygen those roots are so fucking suffocated right now. They need extra oxygen badly. And yes H202 has other + as well like sterilization properties etc. and also will kill bennies. I would use h202 and stop when your ready to add your bennies.Then you could do as stoney mentioned. I would also get some fans running on the pots/medium to help them dry out.


You need to let coco dry out on transplants youll get a hang of it dont trip to much. Those leaves can straighten back up but tbh it could take a couple weeks. You need to let the coco dry out and to let the roots catch.

Im pretty sure you can use cannas rhizontonic with h202 theres nothing alive in there from what I know. Roots excel is ran with drip clean so Im guessing thats cool too.


I use h202 29% nutrilife at 2ml a gal and love it. I run a dead rez. Will help with overwatering for sure ! but like I said before its meant to help you but you shouldnt have to rely on this stuff you need to be gentle with the ladies and when they have built roots then you can water with 15-20% runoff people do more but thats what I do. I used to be a heavy waterer like you had fire ogs that looked exactly like yours literally lol they sucked in flwoering because of their rough transplant and my " heavy hand" once you gain some exp. youll get a good feel for it and then you can help people out who had your problem.


They never recovered from transplant shocked and overwatering def didnt help you here bigdog lol

So in simple terms:

1) Let them dry out get fans going on the pots gently not like a windstorm lol

2) Next watering Add the h202 and water until 10-20% runoff thats it be gentle with them a constant even watering.

3) Keep this going for a week or two and stop when they bounce back then go back to your bennies if ya'd like

4) Dont let it happen again lol once the roots are re-established then the ladies can tend to become thirsy. So now you have a new thing to deal with not letting them dry out lol

Its a balance thing my man


I can tell you that 29% h202 at 2ml a gal will not kill your plants. They will thank you.

.

AJAE

DONAJTHEIII, thanks for taking the time to respond to both of my threads. I appreciate your input. You're right in saying that I have been a heavy feeder. I definitely need to ease up on these fire og. Ya live and learn. I feel you when you say it's a balance. I do have good air flow in the room and plenty of space between pots for them to breathe.

That being said, I like getting as many opinions and methods on an issue like this as possible. So far I'm leaning toward rocking the cannazyme, rapid start, and even some great white instead of h2o2. I don't doubt that it will help oxygenate the root zone, but I have used the other three products with great success in the past and have not attempted h202. I think by allowing the roots to dry out more between light feedings I can get these girls to where they should be without destroying the "bennies." That's a new word for me. I like it.

I really do appreciate every bit of input I get, even when it comes with a little attitude, stihgnobevoli. Who else has experience with reviving an overwatered root zone? What method did you use? How'd it work out? What route would you recommend?

bigdog123 said:

DONAJTHEIII, thanks for taking the time to respond to both of my threads. I appreciate your input. You're right in saying that I have been a heavy feeder. I definitely need to ease up on these fire og. Ya live and learn. I feel you when you say it's a balance. I do have good air flow in the room and plenty of space between pots for them to breathe.

That being said, I like getting as many opinions and methods on an issue like this as possible. So far I'm leaning toward rocking the cannazyme, rapid start, and even some great white instead of h2o2. I don't doubt that it will help oxygenate the root zone, but I have used the other three products with great success in the past and have not attempted h202. I think by allowing the roots to dry out more between light feedings I can get these girls to where they should be without destroying the "bennies." That's a new word for me. I like it.

I really do appreciate every bit of input I get, even when it comes with a little attitude, stihgnobevoli. Who else has experience with reviving an overwatered root zone? What method did you use? How'd it work out? What route would you recommend?

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STI is good peeps aha respect his opinion and alot of other vets on here as well. Dont be scared to give it a go though I wouldnt have my current setup if it wasnt for trying new things ya know ? I know other vets can vouch on the h202


Either way Happy Gardening and best of luck


.


AJAE

There are 4 main causes of "clawing". They are:
1. Overfeeding (too much nitrogen) doesn't look like it from pix
2. Heat (room is too hot)
3. Over watering (impossible in coco, unless they are seedlings, or your coco is reused and has begun to break down, not holding as much oxygen)
4. Calcium deficiency-cal/mag or a milk bath will fix that (skim milk, 9 parts water to one part SKIM milk in a foliar spray.

Try this one more time had my post erase 3fukin times... i did n do use h202 29% at times... the 29% is strong shit n i doubt he even has enough rootz in the 3gal pot where it would be beneficial. ... he need roots to grow n choked out the lil bit of roots he got so zymes would help with the dead ones... h202 is definitely another way to go.. n will work to..theres many different ways to skin a cat.... he should get enough o2 from a fresh watering make sure ur water is cooler 70-72deg....as for my reasoning behind cal mag... og n headband both are calmag whores n u never give coco plain water... gotta add sumthin 180ppm calmag n some rapid start u will see them perk back up... should a asked tap or RO ???? Tap has calmag in it depending on where u live may not ever need to buy calmag... next time u transplant dont be rough n also i include b-vitamin in my first initial waterings to help transplant shock... i just had this same shit happen transplanted went outta town helper watered like they were 3 gal trees i came home to plants that looked just like urs do... when u water water the outside of the pot dont dump a gallon on the stem n use bout 1/3-1/4gal per pot till u got new fat healthy growth once u see that givem 2 more wks feeding cautiously then u could start dumping a gal at a time n let it rock...
Also 6.2 is way to high ph.... lower it to 5.5- 5.6 now as u fix things n once things straighten out go up to 5.8..... some strains like 6.0 b not og or headband. But 6.2 is never good....
Also gonna add chem4 is not showing ne bad effects cuz a monkey pissing in the pot can grow it decent... the fire n headbands are gonna test ya.... u gonna wanna make sure those r in prime shape or the og will yield next to nuthin n headband will most likely herm...

i really wish people would stop saying you can't overwater coco.

he's in coco...these plants are clearly overwatered. i dunno even how you have the gall...

but anyway like they're saying basically let the plants dry out some before you water again, they're gonna look worse before they look better but if you remember the words on the cover of the hitchhikers guide, you'll be fine.

i just took 2 plants i just about killed. haven't figured out what i did this time yet, but basically the roots are dead like 70+% i took em out the pots and i ripped off all the dead/dying parts, then i put them in fresh coco, and i did not water for 2 days. they look like they're dead and they may well still die. but they SHOULD start growing new roots at which point they will very slowly resume growing again. when they start growing new roots i'm just gonna chop and reveg so i can get clones. my seeds didn't take. i didn't take any pictures of before or during the transplant. they look really dead right now so i'll take a pic and if they recover ill take another pic.

i'm sorry if i come off rude or whatever, i'm indeed an asshole, but i'm not trying to be one to you. text is a terrible medium for communicating. just know if i'm using caps i'm not yelling i'm just trying to highlight something important and i'm too lazy to edit <b> </b> all over everything i'm writing. and if you read through the sick plants guide it will help you IMMENSELY!!!

at OG another site long gone you would have to take a quiz before you could start posting, the quiz was like 5 simple questions you would know if you read over 20 pages of a growing guide for beginners. it was a.) to help n00bs and b.) prevent 500 million threads about the exact same thing.

like i said no diss, just trying to help you out. learning what the leaves mean is the best thing you will ever do in your marijane growing career.

Ive tossed extrs plants i ignored that died in trashbags thrown into the shed or into my garage a few wk later find the dead plant growin outta the bag beastin...these plants are weeds n can take a fuk up...
Stihgonbevoli ur name is to difficult to type in freakin spell check shuts it down.... lol.... what does it stand for mean????...... ibet if ya just leaven they come back. Low light is a trick that helps to... you will loose alot of the plant ya see but should see new growth start... its a good experiment n id love to see pics before n after if it does come back... gonna take some time to.... sometimes they come back sometimes they dont... dead is dead... best a luck...
VIVA OVERGROW!!!!!!!!