How to select a male?

Greenheart · May 19, 2012

Grabbed this from another thread I didn't wanna pollute. :cathug:

Infinitesimal said:
the late flowering males contain the high THC trait in larger frequencies than the earlier flowering individuals.

Intresting point. I've been wondering how to select them. Anyone else have any input?

Perhaps a few good ic links for interested peeps to peruse whilst sticky wading?

Noble Name · May 19, 2012

last year i had a male that flowered one week later than females of the same strain ( other males were 1-2 weeks earlier)

i used that late one to make crosses of some cuts that were gifted to me of some sub par strains ( or at least they were after who i got them froms random inbreeding)

all crosses in week 4 of flower have more crystal than any of the moms did last year... extending out onto fan leaves even...

... other than that i dont know...

ive had a male that with a stem rub had a better than bud smell ( didnt get to breed it )

ive had a male that when i chopped the top off because the girls were not ready, it started shooting male and female flowers, crystal also... will be poping those beans soon.... ?

i think i remember dj having some breading threads around here somewhere..... :tiphat:

Greenheart · May 20, 2012

Noble Name said:
last year i had a male that flowered one week later than females of the same strain ( other males were 1-2 weeks earlier)

i used that late one to make crosses of some cuts that were gifted to me of some sub par strains ( or at least they were after who i got them froms random inbreeding)

all crosses in week 4 of flower have more crystal than any of the moms did last year... extending out onto fan leaves even...

... other than that i dont know...

ive had a male that with a stem rub had a better than bud smell ( didnt get to breed it )

ive had a male that when i chopped the top off because the girls were not ready, it started shooting male and female flowers, crystal also... will be poping those beans soon.... ?

Nice to see someone back that tip up!

On the fem seed thing. I had one strain that threw nanners with t12's hitting it on the sides. Out of 16 seeds 6 had a few balls that were plucked right away. They turned into 16 females.

I'm looking for true males selection tips though. This tip on later blooming males so far has been the biggest hint as to how to judge the higher thc containing ones. Think I read something about hollow stems somewhere also.

Noble Name said:
i think i remember dj having some breading threads around here somewhere.....

I was checking out this one a bit back. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=136452

DJ definitely has some great things to share with the world on many levels.

Noble Name · May 22, 2012

i read a few more things..sub cool discribed some of his males.... one had blue balls, thc on the very very first leaves... scratch and sniff for smells.... but really he just re enforced the fact that i already had.... when you see him, you will know... but really only when you grow them right out will you see how good.... and only after you grow out seeds that he made will you know what kind of how good....

KEEP CLONES OF YOUR BOYTOYS! good men are hard to find

DIDM · May 22, 2012

smoke him

you high?

if so..................................

homebrew420 · May 28, 2012

Vigor and stem smell are 2 of the main traits initially. If you can clone and flower out you will know more. But as stated you will know when you see him...and then grow out progeny.
It is all a gamble until the results are in.
I follow DJ's rules. he has done this a long time and has been successful.
Good luck all

Peace

Homebrewer · May 28, 2012

The only way to know if you've got a winning male is to breed with him and see what traits he passes on. That being said, I look for fragrant males with good structures who wont flower under 'vegging' light cycles. Sometimes you may even see resin on the leaves but that doesn't always mean he's a keeper. Personally I don't think good males are any harder to find than good females, it just takes longer to determine their worth.

FWIW, I've had good success finding males in packs of beans from real breeders, not F1 poly-hybrid pollen-chuckers.

Greenheart · May 30, 2012

-later flowering
-doesn't flower in veg
-hollow pith
-visible leaf resin
-strong smell
-extreme vitality
-ease of cloning
-smoking him
-growing out the progency

Nice responses all keep them coming. I will have to agree the only true way is growing out the next generation and seeing what percent of "keeper" popuplations exists, however, along the way we should see some signs of what to look for right?

Curious question on the smoking of males? What part do you smoke? I've tried fan leaves of vegging plants before and while the influence is subtle it is there. Has anyone smoked the flowers of a male and care to share? Also perhaps edibles I haven't tried this route on males yet.

I would agree buying a pack of quality breeder beans may be the quick easy way to find keepers but it isn't always avaliable to everyone. Man has selectively bred cannabis for a few milleniums to increase its medicinal influences. What does he look for when picking out his studs? Sure it may be obvious to some but nothing like having everyone chime in to compile a good list of data for the uninformed amoung the group.

inquest · May 31, 2012

Greenheart, I've smoked my "male" Luangs, on two recent occations. I smoked the pollen sacs, stems, and small leaves next to the sacs.

First time was as I came off some Malawi or Haze/Thai and the results were spectacular! Hard to focus/double vision, the giggles, couldn't concentrate on shit! It absolutely ruined my plans for that night!

Second time around was after being sober for a day or so. They had a nice clear up "sativa" high. Both times they had more power than I would have thought, but mixing them seems to be the way to go!

I think your getting a good list there, but really it's what YOU want, not what others look for. I would look for things you'd like to see in your females. Even flower structure. Sure he'll look different than a girl but you'll know if he has tight or loose flowers, internodes, skinny/thick stems, etc.

As for the "real breeder" thing..... You're more likely to find more stable, homogenous specimens from these guys than going the poly-hybrid route. On the other hand, if the hybrids are stable for the traits you want to see in most/all of the plants you grow, then you might find a real winner with those.

A fast track to producing your own quality males, imo, is to have a quality feminized line which you pull females from and breed them to your male/s (any male/s, btw). In the male/female line, each generation you eliminate ALL of the females and poor males, then substitute the feminized girls for the culled ladies and poor males. As long as the fem line shows most/all keepers, the male/s will follow suit in a few generations. This is a type of backcross, so using higher plant numbers and closer to equal male/female ratio will help you keep any variety that you want to keep. And as a backcross it only works if the line you're crossing back to is stable for the traits you're interested in.

hope it helps! and have fun!!

inquest

hydro-phonics · Jun 17, 2012

basic selective breeding brothas - choose the traits you want to breed for, choose a male and female that displays theses traits or a choice combination of desirable traits and be the hand of nature by collecting/applying pollen - you have an f1 - REPEAT with the progeny and proceed to stabilization by BX's or F2s, F3s and on ......
enjoy the journey

inquest · Jun 17, 2012

I agree Hydro. Make a list of your desired traits and select the closest thing to those traits that pops up. S1's are great for stabilizing/homogenizing traits displayed by that plant. F2, 3, .... have less efficiency for stabilizing than S1. BX's are most appropriate for bringing new traits into an already stable line. Backcrossing to a F1 hybrid will never get you a stable line, though.

Work for one trait at a time and/or split your population into multiple lines. One for each trait of interest. This is where BX'ing comes in, combining these lines back into one or two lines.

Dont forget feminized breeding techniques! These will add extra selective pressure for your projects.

redneck shogun · Jun 19, 2012

All I can say in my experience is that it is almost always a surprise what an offspring inherits. Not so much with landraces though.

Homebrewer · Jun 19, 2012

I think I read somewhere that some breeders will even smoke new growth shoots from their males during the selection process. Anyone heard or tried this? Well, I tried it last night (dried growth shoots of course) and three hits out of my bubbler legitimately got me high for about 90 minutes. I've smoked herb from new growers that wasn't as good as these dried, male growth shoots but seeing as how I have no other growth shoots to compare it to, I don't know if what I experienced was desirable or not.

hydro-phonics · Jun 19, 2012

redneck shogun said:
All I can say in my experience is that it is almost always a surprise what an offspring inherits. Not so much with landraces though.

good call my friend and an interesting topic of discussion -
this is because cannabis is technically a polyploid plant and express more then just the traits passed down from the parents. ( if you've ever seen a triploid seedling, 3 cotyledons instead of two ) This is why you can't isolate traits and selectively breed for them like Gregor Mendel did with white/purple peas and follow the rules/math used to analyze populations who under go Mendelian genetics (diploid genetics).

Herb can express some odd traits ( traits not found in either parent ) sometimes and this is due to its polyploidy genotype.
not to mention recessive genes that can not be expressed the pop up one generation...
that's why she so much fun plant to work and there are soooo many varieties

JetLife175 · Jun 19, 2012

Homebrewer said:
I think I read somewhere that some breeders will even smoke new growth shoots from their males during the selection process. Anyone heard or tried this? Well, I tried it last night (dried growth shoots of course) and three hits out of my bubbler legitimately got me high for about 90 minutes. I've smoked herb from new growers that wasn't as good as these dried, male growth shoots but seeing as how I have no other growth shoots to compare it to, I don't know if what I experienced was desirable or not.

I've heard of reversing males. Not neccessarily to smoke but to see what the female expression of that particular pheno does. Resin production, structure, etc.

hydro-phonics · Jun 19, 2012

inquest said:
I agree Hydro. Make a list of your desired traits and select the closest thing to those traits that pops up. S1's are great for stabilizing/homogenizing traits displayed by that plant. F2, 3, .... have less efficiency for stabilizing than S1. BX's are most appropriate for bringing new traits into an already stable line. Backcrossing to a F1 hybrid will never get you a stable line, though.

Work for one trait at a time and/or split your population into multiple lines. One for each trait of interest. This is where BX'ing comes in, combining these lines back into one or two lines.

Dont forget feminized breeding techniques! These will add extra selective pressure for your projects.

well said brotha and thanks for the info -so the f2, f3 etc.. would ultimately be more for the hunt of desirable variations of the genes expressed by the parents
S-1s and the best for locking down one complete gene expression - say like the old cut shoreline.... IMO there is no way this strain could possibly get any better - smell, taste, bud-growth structures, potency, effect are all spot on so and S1 would be the best course of action to reinvigorate, and not alter this mega-classic but tiered and finicky girl.
but if i want some new variations of old selected traits would f2s and on.... not be a good way to fish for a new gem with a mix of desirable traits ??

by the way dude you know whats up

Tom Hill · Jun 19, 2012

My thought is that these traits (early flowering vs %THC) are inherited separately. It is not that early flowering individuals by necessity contain less THC, but that high THC was not the primary focus during their breeding. Once we get into the F2 and beyond, there is zero correlation between them whatsoever ime. So if you are rummaging through early generations of unfixed multi hybrids, pay no mind to that selection criteria imo, at it's essence, it is a stoner wives-tale.

Same thing with reversing males etc. The more inbred the line, the more chance of homozygosity, the more value we can potentially place on phenotypic expression of the proposed parent due to a higher probability of homozygosity. Not a whole lot of sense reversing some male you know will segregate all over the place upon breeding anyway.

inquest · Jun 24, 2012

Hydro,
F2, etc. would be a good starting point for new trait combinations, yes.
S1's are a good test for potential mothers and may make great mothers themselves. S1's of S1's of etc. ...prolly not the best route, though.

Growing out a number of S1's of Shoreline would help you see which traits are homo- or hetero- zygous. IMO, it would be a good choice for attempting to preserve most of the shoreline traits. It will also highly increase your inbreeding coefficient, so I dont think it would reinvigorate much. An outcross would/could be much better for invigoration of the cut/line. If crossed to a few different cuts and grown out this should also help you see which traits are dominant or recessive, including vigor.

I recently crossed my Lebanese with a Malawi and some Haze/Thai. The Leb/Malawi had way more vigor than the Leb, Malawi, Haze, or Leb/Haze.
- stong hybrid vigor - super thick hollow stems
- smelled like skunky coffee - Lebanese trait
- short stature - Leb trait
- very strong odor - Leb trait
- fat leaves - Leb trait
- Highly branched - Malawi trait

Unfortunately all grown were male and were pulled due to smell issues.

The Leb/Hazethai has:
- Little hybrid vigor
- short stature - Leb trait
- fat leaves - Leb trait
- not branchy - Leb trait
- low odor - Haze trait
- Haze smell - Haze trait
- thin stems - Haze trait
- bud structure is a more compact Haze structure
She has yet to finish flowering and I'm anxious to she final development and what kind of stone she has!

From this info I'm betting a Malawi x Haze cross would have mostly Haze traits. These beans are developing right now so I'll have to wait awhile for my answer.

waveguide · Jun 24, 2012

next time, mix some white vinegar when you water your stinky plants.

voila, no more stink, and you can still breed them.

freeskierpj · Jul 1, 2012

Some great info in here...good read :thank you:

How to select a male?

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