Seeking Critique on Vert Colosseum SOG concept.

Bulbs: (2) 400w Philips Ceramic Metal Halide 4000k
Ballasts: (2) 400w Sun Systems Crop Master Magnetic HPS
Ventilation: (1) Can Fan 6 Fan/Filter Combo (~190 CFM filtered.) with passive intakes below table.

Introduction:

This thread is long and many of you are just picture junkies who already know it all. For those, I have added this break down to move you quickly up to speed. Other people can use this as a reference if they want to go back through the thread and look for specific information.

For anyone who is new to vertical growing or who wants to learn about the process of how this grow room evolved from concept to final design, I recommend that you read the whole thread straight through. I proposed many ideas along the way that were modified, elaborated or outright scrapped when I got the responses from many of the most respected members of the ICMAG vert community.

If you read the whole thread you will understand why I made certain decisions and also why the final design is significantly different from the illustrations in this first post.

I have long felt that many minds are greater than one and that I am smarter when I allow myself to access the thoughts and ideas of others. Read along if you dare, you may learn something.

Mini Index of the Thread:

• Original concept starts here in this first post.
• The room build-out starts on...............................................................................................................page 06
• The table build starts on.....................................................................................................................page 10
• Vegging moms start on.......................................................................................................................page 11
• "Let There Be Light" (VIDEO)............................................................................................................page 12
• Attack of the Clones............................................................................................................................page 13
• Clones get planted and begin Veg on.................................................................................................page 16
• Flipped to 12/12 on (9/29/11)..............................................................................................................page 19
• WEEK I of 12/12 on............................................................................................................................page 21
• WEEK II of 12/12 on...........................................................................................................................page 22
• WEEK III of 12/12 on.........................................................................................................................page 23
• UPSKIRT PICS on..............................................................................................................................page 25
• WEEK IV of 12/12 on..........................................................................................................................page 25
• WEEK V of 12/12 on...........................................................................................................................page 27
• WEEK VI of 12/12 on..........................................................................................................................page 31
• WEEK VII of 12/12 on.........................................................................................................................page 33
• WEEK VIII of 12/12 on........................................................................................................................page 34
• WEEK IX of 12/12 on...........................................................................................................................page 37
• Final Harvest Weights And Pics on.....................................................................................................coming soon!

Let's start the show!

ORIGINAL POST STARTS BELOW THIS STATEMENT:​

Seeing all the great work that's being done in vert-world, I've been thinking about ways to take my CFL Mini-SOG to new heights.

Here's what I'm getting under 252w of CFL currently (Perpetual SOG):

Serious AK-47 budsicles in 2.5"x2.5"x10" tree pots:
For reference, the plant you see in the first two pictures above is in a container that is 2.5"x2.5"x10" and the plant itself is about 13" tall from tip to soil.


A recent smoke off plant pictured above. the nug in the photo is one of the small ones near the bottom.

I love these containers (Mini Tree Pots MT2510) but when the plant gets big, it's easy for them to fall over. So I was trying to think of a way to setup a colosseum grow using these containers without having to fear a domino effect.

Here's what I came up with:



Basically, 4 plants per shelf, with holes cut into the top of the shelf to allow the plant container to hang suspended.

The green cylinders represent the approximate size of the bud you see in the first pictures. That's what happens when I drop my newly rooted 2" tall clone in one of those containers.

So then I basically built a stadium that utilizes a total of 12 shelving units like the one above:








In the pics, I've basically just divided the entire room in half and hung each light in the center of its half of the room.

Entire room is about 6.5ft long x 2.5ft wide

I'd put fans under the lights, of course.

Planning on 2 x 400 CMH.

Anybody care to comment?

Suggestions on ventilation, criticism, personal attacks?

I'm really interested in this! How do you plan to water these plants? Your pots are small enough at the bottom that you could probably use plastic rain gutters as drainage or ebb/flow trays?

If the pots were round instead of square, then you could drill the holes they fit into with a hole saw. I don't see the shelves with square openings as being that easy to fabricate. But then you only have to build them once.

Crusader Rabbit said:

I'm really interested in this! How do you plan to water these plants? Your pots are small enough at the bottom that you could probably use plastic rain gutters as drainage or ebb/flow trays?

Click to expand...

I have a couple of ideas about watering. Simplest but most work-intensive idea is to water the way I do now, one at a time via complete submersion in a bucket.

I also considered doing something along the lines of what you're saying. The bottoms of these things already have about 1.5" circular holes so they drain with no issues. If I could figure out a workable gutter system I could eventually go to blumats or something.

I don't see the shelves with square openings as being that easy to fabricate. But then you only have to build them once.

Click to expand...

That's why I love sketchup. Wasn't sure how to do it so I started playing in sketchup. I think all I have to do is get a piece of scrap wood and use my jigsaw to experiment with the perfect hole size. Then the shelf is simply 3 pieces of wood joined at 90 degree angles. Cut four holes using a jigsaw into the top piece of wood. Assembly complete.

I see a problem with cutting out these square holes with a jigsaw, in that the narrow cross pieces will be cross grained, and so that small section of wood will have little strength. Possibly a synthetic material? If I was to do these square holes with wood I'd probably glue/screw it up using separate pieces of wood, or maybe use plywood? These could possibly be glued up as a frame of 1/2" or 3/4" pvc pipe.

Presently I'm running three 2' x 3' mortar tubs as ebb/flow trays under two 400watt CMH lights. I now have 1 gallon pots of coco, plants controlled with LST, but once I've sorted out my strain selections down to the mothers I want, I'd like to run SOG. I have tree pots similar to yours and figure the high sides of the tubs will keep them stable. But I'd really like to try vertical.

My set-up requires an automated watering system since my job regularly takes me away for a week at a time. I also want the ability to easily remove a pot with one hand, to rearrange things or work on a plant.

A flat horizontal piece of wood can support less weight than one turned on edge. We see this in 2"x4" rafters which are not laid flat, but on edge. The horizontal portions of the shelves could be fabricated from 1" x 2"s. or 1" x 4"s. You'd have to cut a lot of the cross pieces, then glue/screw them together. The resulting product would be very strong. Some places sell 1" x 3"s.

I feel ya. It's slightly more work that way but definitely would add long term strength/durability.

Those plants in the middle seem a fair distance from the bulbs. How about having two sections like you currently have at each end, in the middle and back-to-back. So it would be two identical mini colosseums next to each other, each centered around a 400W. Would come to the same number of plants.

Hey anti, you have a good plan .Crusader Rabbit has given you a great technique for building the racks. Drill ,screw and glue would be the way to go about this.
Also instead of exposing the pots to light,you could incorperate a shield to the design that would...
A)catch run off
B)reflect light
C)add support so the shelves dont rack and sway
This could be a piece of plywood with white paint on one side and some lightwieght gutter screwed on the back.
Good luck Mr.

Dewd......That looks so fukin awesome.........Your sq ftg and choice of light gives yas right at perfect 50 watts per sq ft.....

My suggestion is ta cover everything behind , above and below anything that`s not green with reflectix as that "shield" pine boy spoke of......even the ceiling......

For structural support yas could just put another board directly underneath each shelf for the lil containers ta sit on while being flush mounted above where the squares have been cut out....

Simple with no glues or screws laminating panels for upper strength when they can just rest their lil ass on another shelf below....

Regardless....if yas use wood , paint and seal with bathroom midewcidal paint to prevent molds and mildews from poppin up from runoff or excess humidity......

Had a Growbro that used fiberglass resin ta seal his stadiums....Wood will mold , and cause problems that can`t be seen so easily....

With 2-400`s evenly spaced in said pattern , not how you`ve got em drawn , the overlap lumens will take care of the plants in the middle and on the ends I assure yas......

Don`t leave plants out of the corners , just back the 2 end units up lil bit , and extend em across for max plant numbers and lumen absorption in as even a canopy with no holes in the walls of weed....

The 2 end units could be where the bottom shelf plants line up with the bottom shelf plants on the long side , and the tops could have as many as it took to complete the rectangle for a fully contained sideways canopy.....

Killer design Bro.......Very Heath-ish......Now handle it and show us how it`s done.......

Smaller areas are easier ta control environment in and will reward accordingly once dialed.......

A perfect example of how increased plant numbers will dictate yield once dialed....

Peace..DHF.....

Thanks for all the responses so far, guys. I will move the lights in sketchup as soon as I get a little time later today and repost to make sure I've got it right.

What you're recommending is exactly what I did at first, but I wanted to make sure that the plants on the end wouldn't be neglected. If DHF says they won't, then I have no qualms about moving them back to the middle.

I'll post up new sketches later.

Keep the thoughts flowing. If you're thinking them, I want to hear them!

ICMag, you're my hero.

Wow Anti very nice idea. I think I might copy.

In regards to watering: not to sure your medium, but ive cut down the time I spent watering drastically by using perlite/coco 1:5 in small containers. I use modified version of the rezipe thats very strain dependent. I have 3 basins, 1 for all plants on micro/bloom, 1 for just bloom, and 1 for plain water. I place all plants in fill up 2/3 height of container so the container doesnt tip over (coco wicks up the rest) and wait ten min. Waiting ten min I dont get those super dry pots using the HPS and growth is allot faster. Then place to drain. I have a forth container for once a wk kb boost ferts. If a strain is extra thirsty during its mid flower stages I let sit in enough water for it to drink a day after i water. Letting it sit all the roots rush down to the bottom and there is no affect on growth, but i get to water every 2 days instead of every day. If there are more than one strain at different cycles I sit all of them in a basin with just pH'd water. Plant does not suffer and coco/perlite wicks up and hold water very well. and I can leav for a couple days without worry

One thing Ive found in using small containers is everything finishes a 1-2 wks earlier if ya boost them and flush at the right time. Its a really nice way to grow haze crosses, my 12 wker comes down to 9. no veg time and uses a hell of allot less nutes. (Allot less!)

As far as using CMH, are you using them for their UVB output or some other reason? I've used them and they arent all that great other than running a hell of allot cooler than HPS. They stretch the same and buds are a little less and a little more leafy.

For UVB output try looking into Xenon mercury short arc lamps. I'm gonna work with these next. Ive done some more experimenting and I've found a very noticeable (naked eye and head) output in trichomes by doing this: A little hard to explain, but hope you understand my wording

I have an 400HPS and an array of uvb CFB bulbs about 5" closer to tops.
I run an 11/13 on off sched, but 4.5 on HPS then off, uvb on at 4 then off at off at 8.5, HPS on at 8 then off at 11. So there is a half hour overlap at each end of UVB cycle, if you have a 15 min timer I would do it with 15. Ive noticed a very visible dramatic increase in trichs and no difference on yield or bud density doing this, and the area stays a bit cooler.

I would do a light mover too easy even coverage and adds length. Man, I would really like to see this come into reality Anti. Gd luck

OK> First tweak to design thanks to your suggestions!

OK> First tweak to design thanks to your suggestions!



Changes from yesterday's version:

1. Extended the "arms" of the upper tier on the two end pieces to accomodate a total of 8 more plants, filling the gaps that were in the corners.
2. Moved the bulbs so that they divide the grow into three equal segments. (Let me know if this was the recommendation DHF.)
3. Added walls behind upper tier to help reflect useable light.
4. Added a floor with cut-outs below lights for 10" fans. (Additional light-loss prevention.)

The only thing that scares me about this setup is that before I added 2 plants in each corner, I was at 96 plantlets. By filling those corner gaps, I bring plant count up to 104 - plus moms.

justwatchin said:

Wow Anti very nice idea. I think I might copy.

Click to expand...

Awww shucks! Please post your pics if you do!

As far as using CMH, are you using them for their UVB output or some other reason? I've used them and they arent all that great other than running a hell of allot cooler than HPS. They stretch the same and buds are a little less and a little more leafy.

Click to expand...

The reason for the CMH is that I am currently a CFL grower and I like the idea of going to a bulb that will have a similarly balanced spectrum.

The nice thing about the CMH idea is that they run on HPS ballasts, so I can always get some HPS bulbs and run a cycle under HPS and compare the results at a later date.

I'm open to suggestions, however.

I have no reason other than what i've read here to choose any light over another. Freezerboy, for example, was growing with HPS for many years before he switched to CMH and he hasn't gone back to HPS after making the switch. Also Major Cottonmouth is currently rocking a 3x400w CMH vert grow and is getting promising results thus far.

I'm comfortable with my tiny plants, love the idea of sticking with straight-to-flower-from-clone plants and the containers I've grown to love. If I can keep my plants looking like my current (horizontal CFL) grow, I'll be ecstatic!

I'd prefer to keep my grow under 1000w for now to maintain stealth.

I would do a light mover too easy even coverage and adds length. Man, I would really like to see this come into reality Anti. Gd luck

Click to expand...

The light mover is an interesting suggestion. What does anyone else think of it?

Thank you for sharing!

You actually need to space the lights equally from the upper racks Bro....prolly just an oversight in your drawing....but....with 50 watts per sq ft , all the plants will be taken care of lumen wise as long as your walls , shelves , and ceilings are covered in reflectix.....

As far as plant numbers go.....I feel your pain , but mom plants are essential to feeding the beast for growing single cola budsicles with increased plant numbers , regardless of whether you`re growing 96 or 104...

If it`s the 100 plant rule , then yas might oughta rethink your intentions since the moms and cuts rooting for the next run would throw yas over anyways........

Regardless......I love yer art work cuz it`s a thing of beauty and would yield like a mofo with dialed strains and environment.....

Good luck....DHF.......

I noticed that you'd kept your plant count under 100, but prepping clones for the next run would put you over, in addition to your moms.

Instead of building four extra units that each hold two plants for filling in your corners, you could just make two more of your regular units that hold four plants each. Either way it's eight plants at each end, but it's simpler to assemble your whole stadium out of identical components, each one holding four plants.

I'm concerned about where the waste water draining from these pots will go. You mentioned the possibility of Blumats but a hundred of them? Seems there would be
little room for a blumat in a treepot anyway.

I just stuck a treepot into a 49oz soup can (tomato juice can size) to see if it would reach the bottom. It couldn't fit down all the way, but the treepot flexed to accommodate the round can. Since this design uses a horizontal board for the top, I think it would work out easier to cut round holes with a holesaw instead of sabresawing out square holes. At least my model of treepot would work just fine in a round hole.

Anti, you are really on to something with this modular micro stadium design of yours. It's awesome!

I admit I didn't read every post in the thread, if I asked a question somebody else already asked then feel free to ignore it.

1. Why go through all the trouble "hanging" the pots when you could easily just build the shelves at a lower height and sit the pots on top? edit: I see you're afraid the plants will tip over, wouldn't a lip in front of the pots be a lot easier?
2. Why not add 2 more units back to back in between the bulbs?
3. Will the outside walls be on hinges/casters so you can swing it open to allow better access?

I love this idea, definitely going to steal the design, but the scale/plant numbers will probably change.

hippydan said:

1. Why go through all the trouble "hanging" the pots when you could easily just build the shelves at a lower height and sit the pots on top? edit: I see you're afraid the plants will tip over, wouldn't a lip in front of the pots be a lot easier?

Click to expand...

These treepots are tall and narrow with small bases. They definitely need side support. They are usually kept packed together in large trays. 3 lb. soup cans would be very stable but aren't as tall.

hippydan said:

I admit I didn't read every post in the thread, if I asked a question somebody else already asked then feel free to ignore it.

1. Why go through all the trouble "hanging" the pots when you could easily just build the shelves at a lower height and sit the pots on top? edit: I see you're afraid the plants will tip over, wouldn't a lip in front of the pots be a lot easier?

Click to expand...

I was shooting for ease of construction. What I will probably do is do as DHF suggested and add in a bottom "shelf" to each unit so the plants rest on the shelf but are kept in place by the holes in the top "shelf".

2. Why not add 2 more units back to back in between the bulbs?

Click to expand...

Looking around at others in the VERT section, they all seem to be getting better results with the two bulbs sharing a rectangular space rather than two separate square spaces.

3. Will the outside walls be on hinges/casters so you can swing it open to allow better access?

Click to expand...

Haven't figured out exactly what I will do, but each of the 12-14 units will be a separate piece, and will either be on some kind of furniture pad or casters.

I love this idea, definitely going to steal the design, but the scale/plant numbers will probably change.

Click to expand...

Sweet! Post up some pics if you do.

I run 2 x 400 in a 6' x 2.5' space. Just like your talking about....just with 10 plants instead of 100. I'm not comfortable running #'s like that.

I think you will be very happy with what this setup can potentially produce. But, I think you'd be doing yourself a very big favor if you lower the count a bit. I'd definitely remove the corner plants. Based on your sketch, those will be far less productive imo. The overlap from the clones being so close will be counterproductive, imo. My guess is you'd get a better yield, with about 20 fewer plants. (everytime i lowered my count, yeild went up) At some point, increasing plant #'s will begin to hurt yeild. I think your already over that point. If the pics you showed were from CFL's you can bet that same strain will react different to more intense light. I'd guess they'll be bigger, and have more vegetation...causing some crowding. They will also grow forward towards the light. When the weight packs on, you'll need something to hold them back.

I also think your light spacing was better in the 1st sketch. I'd rather have the ends get direct light, and have the center share the overlapping light. In your 2nd sketch, your taking light away from the ends and giving more to the center. But, your room is 5" longer than mine, so you will have to manage a larger overlapping area.


Overall, I think you'd kick ass with this setup once you find a happy zone. I think that happy zone will be well over 2lbs.
Good luck. I'll be here to watch

Gotta respectfully disagree on the corner plants position Marlo , cuz it`s establishing a "fully developed" sideways canopy , and He`s runnin budsicles , not actual plants that could per chance grow into each other and potentially be counterproductive as you say.....

I also noted that the lights needta be centered more toward the upper outside shelves for better lumen coverage overall , but a light mover might just be the ticket to hit all those spots you`re concerned about Diesel Don.....

If there was a way to run the cordsets through 2 down rods for support from the light mover so they wouldn`t swing as they went backwards and forwards , it would prolly be to his advantage......

I`d loveta see 104-1/2 oz or bigger single colas in that setup ftw with the right dialed strains monocropped.....

Git `er done Anti......

Peace....DHF..........