PH in Organics?

Chronic777 · Dec 29, 2009

Hey, i grow in organic Canna Bio-Terra & use the range of Canna Bio nutes, both say on the packet that PH testing & adjusting is unecessary

Can someone definitively tell me that is true or false?

Anytime i post an issue i get told - have you checked PH?

I think im gonna make my sig

'I AM AN ORGANIC GROWER I DO NOT NEED TO CHECK PH'

Unless this thread proves me wrong?

BurnOne · Dec 29, 2009

You don't have to worry with pH if you have the right soil mix like LC's Mix.

LC's Mix is great for any stage of growth. You can germ seeds in it, grow mothers in it, root clones in it as well as veg and flower in it.

LC’s Soiless Mix #1:
5 parts Canadian Spaghnam Peat or Coir or Pro-Moss
3 parts perlite
2 parts wormcastings or mushroom compost or home made compost
Powdered (NOT PELLETIZED) dolomite lime @ 2 tablespoons per gallon or 1 cup per cubic foot of the soiless mix.
...Wal-Mart now sells worm castings.

Or, if you use Pro Mix or Sunshine Mix...
LC's Soiless Mix #2:
6 parts Pro Mix BX or HP / Sunshine Mix (any flavor from #1 up)
2 parts perlite
2 parts earthworm castings
Powdered (NOT PELLETIZED) dolomite lime @ 2 tablespoons per gallon or 1 cup per cubic foot of the soiless mix.
If you use a 3 qt. saucepan as “parts” in the amounts given above, it equals about 1 cu. ft. of soiless mix and you can just dump in a cup of powdered dolomite lime.
But, a "part" can be anything from a tablespoon to a five gallon bucket. Just use the same item for all of the "parts".

Organic pH issues

I hear a lot of people asking or talking about the pH of their organic soil mix or organic nute solution and how they might correct or adjust it. pH in organics is not an issue like it is in synthetic growing.
The best place to settle the pH issues in organics is within the grow medium. A medium rich in humates (humus) is the place to start. Humates work to "buffer" the pH of organic mediums and the nutes you pour (or mix) into it.
Humates come from compost, worm castings and bottled humus. If you use a peat based medum, use dolomite lime to raise the pH of the acidic peat. Dolomite should be used in any soil or soiless medium to provide magnesium and calcium. But since we are talking about pH here, I'll mention dolomite lime's pH correction benefits.
A medium of coir has a pH near neutral (or 7.0). But humates are still neded to allow uptake of organic nutrients that are outside a near neutral pH range.
With an active medium rich in humates you can pour in nutes like Pure Blend Pro, Earth Juice and guano teas way outside the optimum pH range without worry. The humus will allow the nutes to be taken up through the roots, even at such an extreme pH reading.
So throw those pH meters away folks and enjoy the ease and safety of organic gardening.Organic pH issues

I hear a lot of people asking or talking about the pH of their organic soil mix or organic nute solution and how they might correct or adjust it. pH in organics is not an issue like it is in synthetic growing.
The best place to settle the pH issues in organics is within the grow medium. A medium rich in humates (humus) is the place to start. Humates work to "buffer" the pH of organic mediums and the nutes you pour (or mix) into it.
Humates come from compost, worm castings and bottled humus. If you use a peat based medum, use dolomite lime to raise the pH of the acidic peat. Dolomite should be used in any soil or soiless medium to provide magnesium and calcium. But since we are talking about pH here, I'll mention dolomite lime's pH correction benefits.
A medium of coir has a pH near neutral (or 7.0). But humates are still neded to allow uptake of organic nutrients that are outside a near neutral pH range.
With an active medium rich in humates you can pour in nutes like Pure Blend Pro, Earth Juice and guano teas way outside the optimum pH range without worry. The humus will allow the nutes to be taken up through the roots, even at such an extreme pH reading.
So throw those pH meters away folks and enjoy the ease and safety of organic gardening.

Chronic777 · Dec 29, 2009

Nice one man, im using Bio-Terra by Canna, its got everything from guano to lime in it...

Looks like you might be the one to ask about not flushing organics before harvest aswell?
Just normal amounts of water in the last 1-2 weeks is good enough to get nutes out of the bud right?
I don't like the idea of flushing, to me it just sounds like overwatering over & over & over

VerdantGreen · Dec 29, 2009

Chronic, whilst i wouldnt disagree with what burn1 says above, i would add that in my opinion, the success of organics without measuring pH is to some extent dependant on the pH of the water you use. mine is about 8.5 and i amend it with citric acid to somewhere inbetween 6and 7 before i water my plants with it as i think this brings it more into the 'zone' where the organics isnt spending all its pH correction properties on neutralising my water. i use a pH pen for this.

if you are watering with water of pH that is naturally nearer to 7 or already below 7 then i'm sure it isnt necessary at all. and if you are getting great results already then again im sure its all fine.

on the subject of flushing, in organics there is little point in flushing by flooding with water . we refer to flushing as cutting out nutes or 'timing' the soil mix to run out of nutes in the last couple of weeks of the grow - but even this is a contentious issue that some think isnt necessary. check out maryjohn's thread where he is going to put this to the test

cheers

V.

VerdantGreen · Dec 29, 2009

p.s. i say this not to be argumentative, but just to point out that using a pH pen and being organic are not mutually exclusive. one mistake of organics imo is that there are too many rigid rules that are not always in the best interests of the big picture - and we should avoid making any more rules if we possibly can

V.

bluntt · Dec 29, 2009

My thing is this;I use fox farm ocean forest which has [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Ocean Forest® is a powerhouse blend of premium earthworm castings, bat guano, and Pacific Northwest sea-going fish and crab meal. Composted forest humus, sandy loam, and sphagnum peat moss now, i dont have lime in there.For fertilizer [/FONT]I use Pura Vida Organics it has already been broken down before it ever goes into the bottle, it is 100% readily available nutrition like mineral nutes.The ingredients are seaweed powder,kelp extract,alfalfa,molasses,potassium sulfate,epsoms salt,boric acid,copper sulfate,magagnese sulfate,zinc sulfate.should I be concern about ph sense I have no lime in the soil.what other additive should I be using

VerdantGreen · Dec 29, 2009

i would go with it this time - if you dont see a problem then there is no problem, and get some powdered dolomite lime to mix in before you use it next time.

V.

BurnOne · Dec 29, 2009

Chronic777 said:
I'm using Bio-Terra by Canna, its got everything from guano to lime in it...

But how much is that? I can put a pinch of lime and a pinch of worm castings in and say "It contains lime and worm castings".
You need about 20% worm castings and 1 cup of powdered dolomite lime per cubic foot of total mix for this pH buffering to work.
Store bought soil mixes are mostly peat and a lot of hype for the most part.
Make your own. It's cheaper and a lot more effective.
Burn1

Chronic777 · Dec 29, 2009

Yeah ill def have to look into it, its the whole point of organics really, doing it all yourself, im on my first grow tryna keep it as simple as possible

I think ill get a PH tester just to see what the water im feeding is like to make sure

bluntt · Dec 29, 2009

bluntt said:
My thing is this;I use fox farm ocean forest which has [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Ocean Forest® is a powerhouse blend of premium earthworm castings, bat guano, and Pacific Northwest sea-going fish and crab meal. Composted forest humus, sandy loam, and sphagnum peat moss now, i dont have lime in there.For fertilizer [/FONT]I use Pura Vida Organics it has already been broken down before it ever goes into the bottle, it is 100% readily available nutrition like mineral nutes.The ingredients are seaweed powder,kelp extract,alfalfa,molasses,potassium sulfate,epsoms salt,boric acid,copper sulfate,magagnese sulfate,zinc sulfate.should I be concern about ph sense I have no lime in the soil.what other additive should I be using

can you give me an answer on this one burn one;I just need your pro insight on this

maryjohn · Dec 29, 2009

for my next trick I should pH my water from the local 7 or so to an 8.5, to show that if you need to adjust your water something is wrong with your soil.

verdant, you have one gauntlet left... keep it on for now, but we should try it out. I am suspicious of your compost, but can you remind me what you use?

Also very possible Verdant is right, and we organic heads should be saying our pH options are much wider, rather than saying it absolutely can not matter. (EDIT: in either case the pH of advice from conventional growers is probably not right for you and will do more harm than good)

I would love to own a pH pen. If you drop it, it doesn't make a mess of test strips everywhere. I monitor the pH of my EM, and recheck to make sure it is still good after storage.

jmansweed · Dec 29, 2009

Some organic growers feel there is little need to moniter pH. By choosing appropriate ingrediants in the soil to create a balanced microherd and by applying specific water they are ensuring the soil creates natural pH regulatory conditions. This means even when pH is considered not much of a priority in reality it is of great concern made evident by the attempt at maintaining a balanced microbial environment. Basically, maintaining your microherd is similar to maintaining the pH. It's all an attempt at creating proper nutreint absorption conditions.

In saying that, maintaining thriving microbial populations and/or an acceptable pH is a major priority in relasionship to cannabis - under many growing conditions. Your organic solubles will produce an environment that sustains solid microbial life hence they will essentailly control your pH. It's hard to trust these methods sometimes but the microbes can handle the job. You only need to adjust pH under organic conditions if something is off. Like too much bacteria to fungi for example or if the water supply is extremely acidic or alkiline previously to application. Even then - in organic grows we can frequently adjust pH by simply adjusting ingrediant levels. More humic acids for example to feed Myco and fungi or Mollasses to promote bacterial blooms. Both which have effects on pH. Hope that helped a little. Best of luck.......

VerdantGreen · Dec 29, 2009

one gauntlet at a time mj

one of the reasons that dolomite lime is such a good idea is that it helps buffer pH - so artificially influencing the pH of our soil is hardly foriegn to us. im sure it would be fine if i didnt pH my water but i want it to be the best it can possibly be. you cant deny that there is a point beyond which water pH is going to be detrimental to our plants.

V.

maryjohn · Dec 29, 2009

VerdantGreen said:
you cant deny that there is a point beyond which water pH is going to be detrimental to our plants.

V.

aye, that is so. Pretty sure lye mixed with water 1:5 will kill my plants quite fast.

BurnOne · Dec 30, 2009

bluntt said:
can you give me an answer on this one burn one;I just need your pro insight on this

If you don't use dolomite, you'll need magnesium and calcium for your plants.
Burn1

montanaorganics · Dec 30, 2009

Agreed Burnone my few deficiencies disapeared with lime.
Humus and lime in proper amounts and ph will take care of itself. Your ph isnt steady it rises and falls based on the nutrients going in and the moisture content of the medium.
So what are you really doing phing your water when the varying medium ph is all that matters?

maryjohn · Dec 30, 2009

we could be even more specific and say only the pH in the rhizosphere matters. The pH of the overall medium is no more relevant, if it doesn't correlate, than the pH of your saliva.

then the question is, "does the pH of the medium or the runoff represent the pH of the rhizosphere? is there a direct relation? is it dynamic?"

I think some people get lucky - they get a pH pen, take a reading, and do something that helps or doesn't hurt. But if the relationship is not constant and universal, we are talking voodoo, not horticulture. As such, the pH pen only needs to be right 1 time out of 10 for people to believe, while the advice to ignore pH only needs be wrong once for people to mistrust it.

Chronic777 · Dec 30, 2009

I know this isnt infirmary, but could this be PH related? (see attachment)

Im hoping its from too many macronutes as i overfed a couple times....

Im very worried as its spreading down the leaves further every day, i haven't watered for 6 days and i had no signs of this when i was watering earlier on, apart from the odd yellow spot here & there

Im gonna go buy a PH tester from my local garden centre tomorrow, as long as its 7 or under im fine right?
Is there anything else is should buy from the garden centre to alter the PH of my water ifit is too high?

Thanks for all the replies...

VerdantGreen · Dec 30, 2009

montanaorganics said:
So what are you really doing phing your water when the varying medium ph is all that matters?

varying between certain points is helpful

thats why i adjust my pH 8.5 water down to around 6 before i water. the dolomite in the soil will buffer this down to 7 over a few hours, and my soil pH then passes through the optimum absorbtion pH for all the major nutrients. if i suspect they need iron i will take the pH down a little lower.
it does make a difference for me. - im not saying it's necessary for everyone.

there is a guy here who uses well water of pH 12 or something silly like that - are y'all going to tell him that pHing his water is folly ??

in my case, living near chalk aquifers as i do, i could possibly stop using dolomite in my soil and not bother reducing the pH of my water but i prefer the insurance that dolomite gives.

p.s. i have never pHed my runoff. i dont really get runoff as my pots are too big.

pps - use the pHorce

V.

maryjohn · Dec 30, 2009

Verdant, where do you take the measurement? At the surface?

If tapwater was 12, first thing I would do is try it, using plenty of compost.

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