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Why is my unflushed plant turning yellow and dying?

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maryjohn

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Check out my poor excuse for a scrog: you will first notice the grower (me) has little skill, and overestimated the stretch, leaving most of the space above the screen unused.

That's not what I want to talk about though. I know how to fix that if I run this strain, which is an afghani landrace, again. For the record, it is freebie mazar-i-sharif, and the plantlet in the back is a clone of the mother, which is under the screen. The first 3 pictures show the scrogged plant before 12/12 , a couple weeks ago, and finally today. I began 12/12 on Nov. 6. EDIT: that makes this the 8th week.

We recently had an ugly debate here about flushing organics, in the "all ears" thread. Well, when I got home from christmas and opened the cab i found some evidence to support the view that even if the soil is capable of supporting the plant (I will chop soon and put another one in its place without adding anything but compost and maybe a bit of azomite), the plant is yellowing, just like when people "flush".

what gives? why is all the nitrogen in my soil not giving me the dark green overfed look near chopping time? Why did I have no deficiency until now? What the hell is going on? Who is in control of all this?

The answer is, the plant is dying. It's an annual, and was never made to keep living. If I want it to make chlorophyl I will have to interrupt the order of things by doing something unnatural, like 24 hours of light, or a heavy dose of nitrates (guano, manure, etc...). Since it is not planning for the future, perhaps the microbes that used to trade nitrogen for sugar have nothing to offer. Why not hold on to the sugar in the hopes of finding a last minute mate? The days are getting short, and nitrogen is useless without sunlight. Something in the plant has changed, since the soil has not been altered since she was born - at least not by me.

Maybe this picture is embarrassing for me, because it shows i can't scrog as well as most (it's my second try with a second strain). Maybe people reading this will decide maryjohn can't grow, and shouldn't be giving advice. Quite valid.

But when someone tells you that the only way to grow the highest quality bud inside is to load up on guanos, then flush to undo the harm, tell them you have seen otherwise. Tell them science says it isn't true.

I am not saying you can't grow great weed the conventional way: by manipulating what is available and when. I am saying there is a new (old) way, called organic. It treats the plant and the its environment as an organic whole, the parts of which can be encouraged or discouraged, but never controlled. It can be done, even by a no-talent grower like maryjohn.

this was grown in:

LC mix with blood meal, kelp meal, and bone meal, and some biotone, aged 4 months or so,

the only thing "fed"other than water:

azomite top dressed with EWC, EWC slurry once a month (just twice total for the grow actually), and 3 applications of neptunes's harvest.

I am about 30% amber at the moment.
 
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NUG-JUG

Member
So in a scrog they finish high above the screen? I've never done one but would two levels of netting help?

Those plants look ok to me for 16 plants in a small space. As for flushing I agree that yes they are just dieing. There's no "flushing cycle" in nature so why do it?
 
T

THC_Decapitator

Don't be so hard on your self .I totally screwed a couple of my first grows up , we learn from our mistakes . Can you get any clearer shots a little closer ?
 

*mistress*

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magnesium & calicium deficiencies...

correct by foliar feeding epsom salts @ 1/4 teaspoon (1.25g) per quart container...
can also foliar spray w/ a calcium fert... also @ very low rate, every 2-3 days...

the plant can eat itself up from the bottom up (oldest leaves 1st) when flowering heavily... & ph is too high... adjust ph to 5.9-6.2... & feed w/ ca+ & mg+... whatever ferts used... organic, chem, combo - doesnt matter...

same occurs in tomatoes... generally called blossom end rot...

not all plants do this... so not necessary to spray entire garden.
happens in plants that are mag & cal hogs... potassium in large amounts can affect cal absorption... they need lots of mg & cal during flowering...

if they showed deficiencies now, good to continue foliar feeding mg & cal - weekly, @ least, until ~wk 5-6...

adjust foliar ph up to 6.5-7.0...

hope his helps. enjoy your garden!
 

maryjohn

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i got a phone, that's it, and an old film SLR.

The timing I used was just right - for the blue burmese I ran last time. But this mazar-i-sharif pheno barely stretched at all.

Nug, from what I have seen you can do it either way, but my goal this time was to get above the screen, or I would have made it a few inches closer (cfl's). If I get a female from the skunk x haze I will keep it low.

There are only two plants in the bottom picture, only one plant in the first two.

That's less plants to take to court.

if they showed deficiencies now, good to continue foliar feeding mg & cal - weekly, @ least, until ~wk 5-6...

adjust foliar ph up to 6.5-7.0...

hope his helps. enjoy your garden!



Come on mistress, read the posts before you reply. these plants have been in 12/12 almost 8 weeks now. They are finishing up. It wasn't a "help me" thread, so much as a thread calling into question just about everything you and those who agree with you take to be absolute dogma: the need for flushing to avoid "excess nutes harshing your smoke". This smoke, by the way, will be harsh all by itself. The leaves are very waxy (which probably explains how it can survive well below freezing.
 

Owl Mirror

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Landrace strains such as the Mazar I Sharif do not like a lot of nutes.

Whatcausedthis.jpg

Indica-leaningTRIUNEofMENfemale.jpg


This is a Mazar x Nepali cross made from the same freebie seeds you have.
This is what happens when the plant is dying and ready to harvest.

Do you grow SCROG due to limited ceiling space?
I like growing my plants to their normal height of 3 feet.
 

DARC MIND

Member
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hmmm
i dont think its a cal/mag prob but im no expert
he did use azomite and i believe lc mix consist of dolomite lime, both have cal and mag
 

VerdantGreen

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mj, first off, i would say that your scrog looks just right for an indica. you arent going to get 6" above the screen with genetics like that (unless you veg forever). you may have better luck with the skunk haze though ;)

as for the unfulshed thing, perhaps it ran out of nutes at the right time. ive had plants ripen and finish tric wise much greener than that, and ive seen ones much yellower.

i think its about half and half - some of the yellowing at the end is due to the plant finishing and some of it is down to getting the nutes to run out at the correct time. for best results you want both to happen.

also i wouldnt say that your plant looks like it is N deficient.
also bear in mind that nutrients wouldnt be available so much at the low temps you describe .

gonna have another look later

V.
 

Owl Mirror

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Owl Mirror, on the second pic, are the leaves getting white or yellow ? if white, might be iron deffisciency.
have a look at http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=11688

Irie !

They turned a soft notebook yellow.
The plant had purple stems from a seedling and, really adds to the contrast in the pics.
I do not use heavy nutes and, this discoloration began at week six after I flushed her.
The buds are healthy and incredibly packed with sticky trichs.
I'll be giving her another week or two to finish up properly.
 

maryjohn

Active member
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Owl, the progression is easier to see in the plantlet on the bottom pic, behind the scrog.

In the scrog it's hard to tell which leaves are from which part of the plant. it's all random. The top is near one of the edges.
 

superpedro

Member
Veteran
Hi MJ.

Experimenting with new grow styles messes up a grow now and then. Doesn't make you a bad grower, it makes you an even more experienced one. ;)

I don't really get the whole nitrogen on demand theory. I'm not looking for an argument with the organic growers, since I'm not one myself, and only use it when I grow mums in soil. But I'd just like to share a simplified version of what I know about the breakdown process anyway.

If conditions are right for the bacteria, they generate enzymes that will break down carbohydrates and protein in whatever organic matter you used as fertilizer. The carbon is released from the matter as CO2, and other micro and macro nutes become a beneficial waste material. The bacteria them selfs get their energy by converting the NH4 into NO2 and NO2 into NO3.
The bacteria lives its own life and will release N at their own pace, and the speed will also depend on the temperature in your soil and the oxygen available for them.
As far as I know, the only root organism trading sugar (in canna plants) is mycorrhiza.

I know there are other organisms at work in decomposing organic matter, but the bacteria should by far be the most important.

Anyway, don't know how to analyze the symptoms on an organic grow, but I wish you good luck with it :) .
 

maryjohn

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mj, first off, i would say that your scrog looks just right for an indica. you arent going to get 6" above the screen with genetics like that (unless you veg forever). you may have better luck with the skunk haze though ;)

as for the unfulshed thing, perhaps it ran out of nutes at the right time. ive had plants ripen and finish tric wise much greener than that, and ive seen ones much yellower.

i think its about half and half - some of the yellowing at the end is due to the plant finishing and some of it is down to getting the nutes to run out at the correct time. for best results you want both to happen.

also i wouldnt say that your plant looks like it is N deficient.
also bear in mind that nutrients wouldnt be available so much at the low temps you describe .

gonna have another look later

V.

Verdant, I knew you would say that, so that container is going to get some EM, some compost, and some azomite, and I will grow another plant in it. I will add no blood meal, bone meal, biotone, or any other amendment, but I reserve the right to stimulate my microbes with fish hydrolysate 3 times of my choosing. The clones are in new soil, can you allow me that?

My intention is to prove my point with pics, since I have been criticized for only relying on scientific fact, which around here holds very little cred. I find grower experience to be a cheap way to bully someone into agreeing with you, and my years of outdoor growing were done with leaving no trace or evidence in mind. So I never snapped pics until now. But if that's all that works, I intend to post pics of plants fed water from the start, in soil able to sustain a second plant yet free of excess nitrates, finishing just as they "should". Which, by the way, was something first observed outside, in unflushed, natural soil, not in manipulated and IMO overfed with manure indoor soil.
 

maryjohn

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Probably Senescence.

I wish I had prizes to give out, that's the answer I was looking for!

The bacteria lives its own life and will release N at their own pace, and the speed will also depend on the temperature in your soil and the oxygen available for them.

This alone is enough for a book. The short answer is you have forgotten about predation (protists, baby), for one. As for which species in particular trade what for what, that is an even bigger book. Though it does not apply to cannabis, I can point you to legumes if the very idea is too foreign. Info on bacterial nodes used by those plant is easy to get. I don't believe I have insisted that any one order or even kingdom is doing the job - I just said "microbes".

Even the NYtimes recently referred to this recently, albeit obliquely. I posted the link in another thread, but it generated little interest:
When plant biologists speak of their subjects, they use active verbs and vivid images. Plants “forage” for resources like light and soil nutrients and “anticipate” rough spots and opportunities. By analyzing the ratio of red light and far red light falling on their leaves, for example, they can sense the presence of other chlorophyllated competitors nearby and try to grow the other way. Their roots ride the underground “rhizosphere” and engage in cross-cultural and microbial trade.

That's not new science, or disputed. It's a matter of scientific consensus. Just like global warming, half of those who would have to change if they accepted the facts will refuse to accept it. Of course, now I'm guilty of my own signature line, but I never claimed I was an exception to that rule.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyMQBDvXKx0

pedro, for the different types of N watch that video, nice quick one. I could try to explain but would only get enough of it wrong for people to ignore me.
 

VerdantGreen

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this will be interesting mj. i guess the compost and fish hydrosylate will contain some N but not as much as we would think that is needed. how about using molasses instead of the fish if you want to prove the N thing? im also not sure how N hungry the mazar strain is.

looking at the pic again, i would say that it isnt particulary short of N - the leaves around the buds would be much more yellow. like i say i agree with you that the plant will fade on its own accord to an extent as it finishes, but if you can help that process along by allowing the plant to run short of N then that is even better.

anyhow i applaud you for trying this and sharing it with us

cheers

V.

either way it will be interesting and kudos to you for trying to show what you mean.
 

*mistress*

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Come on mistress, read the posts before you reply. these plants have been in 12/12 almost 8 weeks now. They are finishing up. It wasn't a "help me" thread, so much as a thread calling into question just about everything you and those who agree with you take to be absolute dogma: the need for flushing to avoid "excess nutes harshing your smoke". This smoke, by the way, will be harsh all by itself. The leaves are very waxy (which probably explains how it can survive well below freezing.
did read posts, & debated replying or not...
whether included dolomite lime or azomite, or not, still seems to be plant eating itself up becauser it wants more magnesium - which it requires in large amount during flower.
since calcium translocates @ slower rate then other heavy metals, foliar feeding cal permits plant to grow large flowers w/out drawing reserves from roots, which leads to lower leaves yellowing...

but... if not useful data, ignore...

azomite has mainly trace micro-nutrients... not enough to overcome deficiencies...

whether finishing or not, the leaves in the 2nd pic look to be deprived of magnesium &/or calcium... not desirable.
while plant is finishing up, leaves should still not be cupped, tips pointing downwards, nor concaving inwards @ edges...

the leaves should be stading up-right, neither cupped up, nor down, & flat, full of turgor pressure making them open & accepting most light energy... & simultaneously expelling water into air... harder to do when leaves are cupped & in not so good health...

in any event, nice garden... maybe feed that cut additional mag & cal during first 2-3 weeks 7 flowering & wont occur next time...

but, maybe maryjohn has it all dialed & has own pattern.methods, etc, that need no further refining...;)

just ran across same issues w/ certain cultivars & found that cal & mag solved leaf discoloration, downward/upward tips, & inter-veinal chlorosis & yellowing in general... as another member pointed out as well, iron may be culprit..

but ca & mg definitely can be added to forestall deficiencies...

not really about 'flushing'... want plant to be healthiest until actual harvest.
flush...

where did *mistress* post that flushing is dogma?


flushing is a matter of taste... if have cultivar that can take nutes up until last day - feed it... not all chem+organic gardeners flush.... there are hydro gardeners that dont flush @ all...

one gardener that didnt flush @ all was growgreen... used to be on c*nn*bis world. ran e&f tables, hydroton & fnb... 2000ppm - & didnt flush... why? that gardener knew the strain they were growing, had nute regime dialed & knew how to feed just enough to affect taste, but not destroy it w/ ferts...

can post long, long thread on methods, if desired...

so, no flushing is not 'dogma'... it is dependent on strain, feeding regime & ability to wash away any residuals that may affect aromas, taste, or combustion...

if feed lightly, or feed-water-feed-water... then no flush is generally required. not new or novel... just recognition that you have fed lightly thru out season & accumulation is not issue...

can feed up until 72 hrs left... w/ 2.0+ec... & flush plants w/ h202 @ 30ml/gal... then water... should oxidize most undesired materials... & water wilo carry away... end.

&, btw, not many here agree w/ *mistress* on topics dealing w/ plants... but 'agreeing' is not object of website - gardening is... in its many forms & expressions...


if maryjohn happy w/ results:yes:... all that matters.

:wave: :peppermintstick:

enjoy your garden!
 

jmansweed

Member
Hey Mj,

I'm sure you'll be happy to here my opinion on this and I have a few questions. Firstly, I've posted on a multiple sights as your somewhat aware. You were the only one who actually had some meaningful debate and truthfully, my next test will include an organic style grow more associated with "true" organic soil admendments and microherds because in some part due to our discussion. My point is - you sound like your knocking yourself there a little in regards to your scrog and teckniques - I for one, even in disagreement at times, respect your ideas and it's obvious from your previous threads that your opinion is valued around here. FYI - I've been growing a Mazar strong Skywalker pheno for years and it frequently stays too compact for my scrog grows. I've had some luck making her stretch a little in veg. with light alteration

In regards to flushing and/or yellowing - as I think that's the point your making here. My plants look like hell towards the end of every cycle also - this always happens as a direct result of flushing however. As plants, regardless of their medium, are given tremendous amounts of pH balanced water things naturally are diluted. The plant of course draws nutes from fan leaves and all that, as your well aware. Multiple flushes, in my situation usually dilutes the nutreint content in my plant tissue also - made clear by the lighter green color even the bud sights begin to display. If I don't flush, my plants maintain healthy leaves and dark green colors until harvest. I don't typically experience the plant "dying" untill excessive flushes. In saying all that. Do you think flushing is not needed under the conditions you grow? As you know, I typically use organic solubles and find benefits from the process. Plants do naturally change internal reactions in later flowering stages and even can change soil pH etc. - but without pollination (later in flowering) I typically don't experience leaf loss or major color change untill well after things should have been harvested without a flush. I think your implying that a plant and the microheard will naturally shift internal nutrient levels as she matures and day's become shorter. Are you outdoors?
 

maryjohn

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but, maybe maryjohn has it all dialed & has own pattern.methods, etc, that need no further refining...;)

You don't actually read long threads, I'm sure, it's quite clear from my thread opener I did absolutely nothing other than follow a recipe and add water. (PLENTY of dolomite in there, btw, and compost containing green leafy kitchen scraps, and bone meal - all sources of calcium). It's also clear I am better at biology than horticulture. VerdantGreen would have scrogged it right the very first time I bet. Probably you would too. So I didn't exactly make any big claims about my expertise, it being nonexistent. If you want to follow the plant from top to bottom, don't look at the scrog. The middle is not the top, and it's all tangled underneath, with no rhyme or reason. I don't weave between the screen, so I can untie and reposition entire branches. Remember, the leaves around the edges don't get to sit extended as in the pic. They are tucked between the scrog frame and the side of the tub, and reside in the dark area created by my cab design, which trades a bit of growing space and reflectivity for a bit of stealth.

Fine and tasty pot is possible even for people like me, because a good microherd can do the dialing for you. Let the skilled growers do their feeding and pH and whatever. I just add water. Outside grows have shown numerous different patterns of senescence as they die. Some even stay green yet taste great. Some go yellow early. Some twist and dry up.

Jmans - when you get to 50 remind me to PM you an apology for calling you a shill. Do you do any gardening? The most vivid example I can think of when it comes to the plant being in control and not needing flushing (impossible with my soil anyway, since I flush from the start) is that in properly managed soil you can have productive corn or brussels sprouts. Corn needs massive N, but sprouts grown in soil with too many nitrates don't make proper sprouts, just leafy decorations. Yet in soil managed as Dr. Ingham advocates can yield BOTH, and in quantities competitve with conventional growing, and I suspect better when annualized over 20 years (that's conjecture)

Verdant - I can drop the fish hydro (3/4 tsp in a quart once a month watered but not to overflow) altogether if you'd like (let me think about it), but I won't replace it with molasses, just in case it is a wolf in ladies' clothing. I'm getting nervous now! The strain will be different, but one you helped me with before - the blue burmese bag seed that yellowed on me (I think you were right about root binding).

All - don't worry about my self esteem. i figure if I start out low no one will feel the need to take me down, or to parade their own greatness in a contest for dominance. I am sick of peacocks.
 

superpedro

Member
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Thats a short video allright. But she doesn't explain much about how NH4 is oxidized to NO2 and to NO3 or how the bacteria/plant handles the NH4 and NO2, she's more about the science of over-watering. ;)
BTW. NO2 is toxic and buildups can kill roots, NH4 is useful, but plants cant store it unless it is converted to amino acids = can only handle small amounts. (It is mixed in fertilizers as NH4NO3, since it works as a buffer in soft water fertilizers.)


"Their roots ride the underground “rhizosphere” and engage in cross-cultural and microbial trade. " Referring to mycorrhiza I assume?

I don't like it when science try to simplify or "humanize" plants ability to adapt. Like the knowledge about the R<->fR interaction in the phytochrome can be used to our advantage only if we fully understand it.

To my knowledge, the use of extra solutions is not to boost bacteria growth in general (besides molasses for fungi), but to feed the bacteria with other protein molecules, for another range of nutrients to be used by the plant.

Enough from me on that matter :)
 
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