Why is my unflushed plant turning yellow and dying?

[maryjohn]

this thread gets cooler every minute.

the brassica o. are biennials most of us eat all the time, but we grow them as annuals unless for seed.

 

[jmansweed]

http://www.pruittfamily.com/paul/senescence.htm

You guy's may have read this but I thought it was very interesting .

 

[Trichgnomes]

Organic soil to me is not about materials, it's about systems.

Thanks mj, great thread, and I just wanted to reiterate that this statement above is, IMO, what it is all about. For one to achieve a living system (despite it being disjointed in a closed system, as I have a similar setup but don't have a bokashi bin yet) is "real" organics. The bottle pushers may tell you differently, but evolution tells no lies.

I'd rather see conventional farming with less harmful inputs rather than more harmful. On the other hand, in midwest dairy country here in the US, tremendous harm is being inflicted on the environment (and the water table) using exclusively organic means. Too many cows, too many shitpiles, too many carcasses. The chesapeake is being choked by chicken shit (sorry, had to say it). Manure is not innocuous, and the surface of this planet can only support so much in one place. Moreover, we now have impervious surfaces that concentrate runoff. It's the death of a thousand cuts.

My thoughts exactly. If any of you have ever read the book Limits to Growth, they talk about this exact issue. They break things down into sources and sinks. Sources being things that are harvested from the earth for our use, sinks being places where the pollutants are placed, whether it is a landfill, the stratosphere, etc. It is important for a balance to be maintained (i.e. with the necessary assistance of microbes).

This brings me to a moral issue. Beyond whether or not mj is able to reuse this soil with nothing more then some EM, EWC, and ACT, is this not the only way to sustainably grow this plant we all hold so dearly, especially indoors with artifical lighting (which unless you are off the grid is most likely dirty power) in a clandestine environment? A reaction must occur when something is taken from a source. This is something that some growers take for granted, some do not even think about the consequences, while others are doing the best they can to limit how much he/she unnecessarily supports extracting nutrients from some faraway place.

Sorry to hijack the thread, just wanted to say much love and respect. It is really a joy to see people doing things from a Systems Thinking perspective, especially after last week when I had a headache of a time trying to explain "True Organics" i.e. growing from a microbial perspective to a grower friend of mine. I asked what he would do if the bottle pushers were not around to assist his grow, and his reply was "There will always be another company." Maybe yes, maybe not (most likely not). But most certainly, when plants and animals cease to exist, microorganisms will prevail, to once again complete the loop, and spawn evolution.

 

[jmansweed]

Trichgnomes, I've been on the ropes with a few folks (even in this thread) regarding your "bottle pushing" methods. I'm one of these "bottle pushers" occasionally, and will continue here and there. Although I've been thoroughly convinced to continue some plants in a bio-dynamic process I still use my Earth Juice - in bottles. It should be noted my goal is the same. We both develop microbial life and rely on this system to feed the plants. My added solubles (other than microblast) need microbial interaction to be properly processed and various forms of microbes are by far my priority. Without the bottles we would adapt - the ingrediants in our solubles, although rare at times - can be replicated. In fact my solubles, have a dry equivilant I could pre-mix in the soil and do things as you say "true orgainics". Maryjohn mentioned semantics earlier and unfortunatly they have there place. I use no chemicals and/or synthetics in 99% of my grows - i.e. - I'm an organic grower. Bio-dynamics is more of the process you adhere to. An encompasing living system - one thats hard for all of us to escape.

My point I guess is that even some of us "bottle pushers" have methods that are more closely related to the system you speak of. You make a valid point in regards to these companies irresponsible methods of extracting rare and valuble fertilizers to feed our plants however. If any discussion persuades me to bury these bottles and work with my compost only it's in that idea.

This thread is incredibly informative and your thoughts only benefit - thanks. It simply should be noted that we also promote the organic system. It's hard not to w/ organics - as you said - microorganisms will prevail.

 

[Trichgnomes]

Trichgnomes, I've been on the ropes with a few folks (even in this thread) regarding your "bottle pushing" methods. I'm one of these "bottle pushers" occasionally, and will continue here and there..

First off, I just wanted to clear up some potential confusion. When I personally (cannot speak for what others mean when this term is used) say "Bottle Pushers," I am referring to large soluble nutrient companies, hydro shops that sell their products, etc.; not the individuals that use their products. I do not agree with the business model of many of these corporations, but am not trying to tell others how to grow his/her plants.

jman- I do not mean to step on toes, I am sure you can grow some great chron with the EJ. I know, because I have done it. I have since then decided to incorporate a living systems model, which is indeed more liken to biodynamics then the textbook definition of "organics."

I simply find it to be more fitting to my personal style to minimize soluble liquid products, and concentrate on building the soil over time, in a very similar manner to mj.

An added benefit is to no longer deal with the repulsive smell of EJ products...

 

[jmansweed]

It does smell like shit - but I suppose it should.

Your not stepping on anyones toes, your insight is well taken. I actually started my "true organic" tests yesterday - I want to determine a solid mix to compare head to head w/ my current soluble methods. I'm an avid gardener so the compost already exsists, just finding the right ratios now. Anyway - thanks for clearing that up Trich

 

[Joe Organic]

Holy cow, this thread blew my mind! I always thought organics was just about using natural stuff. I have a lot of reading to do. Checked the wiki - I've been feeding salts all along? I thought the switch from osmocote to guano was a good thing, but now I'm not sure. Can a soilless mix even support the critters?

in case anyone can't tell i am being sarcasm here

 

[Morose Jessebel]

I don't even see a yellow plant.

 

[Stoned Crow]

Stoned, in nature all annuals and biennials die after reproducing (or attempting to reproduce). It is an evolutionary strategy that has paid off big time. Sticking around to compete with your offspring would defeat the purpose. It's something worth reading about.

They even have little tricks to further ensure a chance to pass on genes. Ever notice a bean (for eating) that doesn't get soft like the others when you soak it, just hard as a rock even after soaking overnight? Annuals often produce a small percentage of really tough seeds that don't sprout - until two seasons later. Should a disaster befall the "normal" seedlings, wiping out the whole generation, the super tough seed is insurance.

Stoned, I share your sense that genetics is what makes things go round, but it's been implied lately that a balanced organic soil needs to be flushed or it will have a pernicious effect on quality. I find this position nonsensical for many reasons posted here, and don't even share the aesthetic position that curing on the plant is the holy grail of quality.

But people want to see yellow plants at harvest, or they won't believe. Could be this one yellowed as a result of cold, which actually only supports my position that any stress will tax the plant and bring on early death (including the water torture many use when they flush). Those taking an organic and biologically centered view of soil need to run more runs in soil that cycles nutrients, with plants that die on time. Proof is in the pudding.

I hear you MJ. My position on this subject is that flushing does NO good if you're into organics, in fact, it does nothing but hurt the final product by making it weaker. I've re-veged seeded plants, and I believe there are plants in the wild that don't die after reproducing.

 

[Stoned Crow]

....I've been seeing that picture above all over the place and can't figure out what the hell it is, could be furry dogshit, or could be a dead rabbit...we should start a poll......