TFD's Original Haze vs Ace's Oldtimer's Haze???

Does anyone know the fundamental difference between Flying Dutchman's "Original Haze" as against Ace Seed's version known as "Oldtimer's Haze" ???

Are these two completely different lines or are they in fact the same line but diverged apart by years of selection choices keeping each of them going in different directions?

Anyone here know about this?

tfd o.haze is from sams n has been bred toward the sweet thai side of her makeup

oldtimershaze is from an oldtimer i think in cali but its said to grow more like a wild sativa n doesnt seem to be related accordin to reports

diff lines i believe soo

tho is wat you want its supposedly o.haze not bred since leavin santa cruz

here's a quote from Dubi on Oldtimer's Haze from the Ace Forum:

Dubi said:

Oldtimer's Haze

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High all!

Oldtimer's Haze is finally available after 2 years of hard work with CBG breeders. We'd love the line will be preserved in its original form in many places as possible.

Here's the official description:

Genetics: 100% sativa. Hybrid of different tropical sativas: Mexican, Purple Highland Colombian, Southern Indian (Kerala) and Thai.

The Haze was developed in California in the 1960s and 70s by crossing some of the best tropical sativas which had been imported during that period. Its exact genotype remains unknown, but it is probably a hybrid of different sativas from Mexico, Southern India, Colombia and Thailand, the two latter being the most dominant in the final hybrid.

This mythical sativa, which has been the starting point for the development of the best hybrids of the past decades, was about to disappear during the 1980s due to the introduction of skunks and indicas in the breeding scene.

Our Haze population comes from the last reproductions made with this variety in California, and it has been preserved intact until today by Oldtimer, a British breeder, and then reproduced by our breeders using a wide diversity of parental plants.

Oldtimer’s Haze still preserves the genetic diversity that many present Haze lines have already lost, and it is possible to find phenotypes ranging from the mythic and nearly extinct “Purple Haze” to the most popular “Green Haze” phenotype, and of course intermediate combinations as well.

By flowering the Hazes at low temperatures, the garden fills with beautiful autumn colours that vary from light green to red, blue and purple.

The flowers gather forming willowy bunches that achieve good volume, when grown under optimum conditions.

Oldtimer’s Haze has an incalculable value for every preservationist, collector and breeder that is looking for a Haze’s population that still conserves all quality and genetic diversity of the original hybrid.

Oldtimer’s Haze is a delight for 70s sativas lovers, a trip back into the past for all those who could not enjoy it at that time.

Structure: Slim and elegant plants, with a tall, branched structure. Medium-length internodes. At the time of growing, the leaf is very thin and shows a pale colour. It reacts very well to pruning.

Bouquet: Dark, fruity aroma, with earthy touches of ashes, incense and antique wood aroma.

Green Haze’s aroma is fruitier (like tropical ripe fruit), while Purple Hazes smell like blackberry and black liquor.

Effect: Strong stimulating and mental effect, without heaviness or physical weakening. A high level of THC and low level of CBD together produce a no-limit effect, which allows you to get higher and higher with each intake. It can produce anxiety and paranoia in high doses and/or to persons prone to these conditions.

Flowering: it takes between 16 and 24 weeks, depending on the plant’s size and the flowering conditions. Outdoors it ends between the end of December and January.

Production/m2: Medium-low.

Growing type

Indoors: we only recommend it to extreme sativas lovers and breeding projects.

Outdoors: Only in tropical or subtropical climates. Within latitudes between 20º and 35º, we would recommend a warm, coastal climate and the use of a greenhouse.

Click to expand...

can anyone find a detailed description from Sam to add on Original Haze if possible?, hopefully this turns into a good thread as i've also thought about both of these lines, would like to add 1 of these to the seed collection to use in future crosses

bigherb said:

oldtimershaze is from an oldtimer i think in cali but its said to grow more like a wild sativa n doesnt seem to be related accordin to reports

Click to expand...

Oldtimer1 or OT1 is a UK grower who does a bit of breeding/preservation, a legend actually, everything you need to know about organic growing can be easily learned from this man.
He kept Haze seeds in storage from the time then many years later passed them on to people on OG who lived in places they could be grown outdoors, he didn't hear from them again and presumed them lost to the ages then someone, Gant I think, got back to him years later and said they were still around OT passed them on to Dubi and the ACE crew and the rest is history. Or the future to be more precise as I think we'll start seeing some spectacular new haze crosses coming soon.

I think just looking at pics you can see that ACE's and TFDs lines are related. ACE's is still in a very diverse form while TFD's has been inbred to stability.

thx for the great info

i wish there were more fine gentleman like oldtimer1

ive been debatin for quite som time bout nev n sams haze bein related n i think not

ive heard that othaze traits is very similiar to nevs i believe shanti also thought soo

a uk grower who woulda thunk ,soo i didnt really want to get into the debate but after the comment on the lines bein related n me seein a post yesterday bout the early haze hybrids of cali bein around

i lov to seee som old school cali haze ,surprising i dont hear much tlk bout cali hazes

ive got to ask cali haze were she at all those diff haze hybrids from growers, seeds from bagseed how com there is a hundred diff cali kush n our famous haze of 70's dissapeared wit all her phenos n hybrids ,ohhh thats rite its in cali oldtimers got her held tight yyy how com its not available in clubs or any seeds bank ,our respected breeders

yyy is there no o.haze or nev better at that available in the dam cs

how is it possible refeerman is the only breeder to hold hazebro haze seed

post from aka at thcf
i thinks its pretty tough to compare the hazes. for instance i grew the OT` and it was nothin like THOHaze, stringy jungle sativa buds, like a brillo pad. then i look at aces plants and i can see the haze bud in um. then again theres lots of sativa lines that look like haze in growth. so ya have to depend on the info and source. and ya know how reliable the info is.

Yeah if it doesn't have the loose jungle sativa type buds then it's not real haze. Most of the time you see a strain with haze in the name it's actually a hybrid. Even Tom Hill's Pure Haze is a hybrid, the buds are too dense and the plant structure too sturdy for it to be an actual pure haze. (I'm not saying Tom Hill is lying but that the seeds were hybridized before he got them unbeknown to him.). Neville's Haze is a hybrid too.

I guess there will be old timers who still have and reproduce real haze seeds but they see the commercialism of the seed biz and keep them to themselves or just aren't on the net.

The reason there's not much haze around is down to the difficulty in growing them, even outdoors you need to be at an adequate lattitude to grow these.

Don't know about Reeferman's Haze but I know to read his words with a pinch of salt.

edited to add: just in case anyone's wondering HotHouseFlower's/Breeder's Choice Haze line is was stolen from OT1 and Dubi from ACE by HHF. He only had a very limited number of untested (turned out to be a poor representation of the line) clones so his line is bottle necked and had no more breeding done on it than a closet pollen chucker would do. He ripped off an old guy with not much money (OT gave him STS out of his own pocket and HHF never paid him back) and and fucked Dubi and many others about for his own financial gain and ego benefit.

big herb your saying the origional haze is from santa cruz and was crossed and given to the flying dutchman

Very good quality read & very informative.I've always wondered about the hazes & why they take so long to flower. That OT Haze is one pretty lady tho. It's a shame someone like myself who lives where I live will probably never be able to grow such a beauty.

Hazeseeker said:
can anyone find a detailed description from Sam to add on Original Haze if possible?

No but I couldn't sleep so I went through the stickied thread and tried to get hte relevant posts from Sam minus the arguments, I stopped when people started going on about roadkill skunk. These are all just plucked in the order they came in so might not make sense the way they're laid out. I left a lot of good info out but it's mainly arguing or not Haze related

Sam's words on Haze

Q: "i understand the original haze from the 7os was your fav of all time.im wondering if the o.haze the flying dutchmen carry today is the same as the one you speak of?"

A: Yes they have my Original Haze, ask if they made the seeds or if I did as I don't know what all they sell.
-SamS

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Take FD Original Haze and make a cross with your favorite female clone and you will be surprised how good it is. Often much better then either parent.

Also I have suggested many times that Original Haze is "breeding material" not great commercial growing materials, but you seem to only notice what you want to notice. It is the only pure Original Haze available.

Bottom line is if you want an almost Haze line that is stong and popular get Nevilles Haze, SSH, Kali Mist, Sage, or a dozen other Haze Hybrids that mostly used my Original Haze as a parent, directly or through a Haze Hybrid based on my Haze genetics available from 1976 from me.

If you want pure Sativa blood to use for breeding then remember that all of the above are Haze hybrids only and most used Indica bloodlines to some degree.

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"We're talking about the Original Haze from The Flying Dutchmen, which doesnt list its flowering times nearly at 26 weeks"

What is the 26 weeks about? I have grown Haze a lot, but 26 weeks? WTF??

-SamS

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As for anyone (if I got this right) [you are] implying that Original Haze clones from 1969 are used, and alive, that is plain insane, there are no Cannabis clones from 1969, that is for sure. But maybe he meant seeds from 1969? And not grown until the 80's? To be honest I do not know, except the only Original Haze seeds sold prior to the 80's were mine, That I made after 1976.

I do not know what any seed seller sells, ask them if it is my varieties or if I made the seeds.
Remember I suggest real Original Haze for breeding, not commercial crops, you may be lucky and find a real keeper for production, but the odds are low. Just try and cross the best you find X your favorite varieties, and you will find lots of keepers.

-SamS

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the Haze Brothers never made extra seeds or sold seeds

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You have no idea how close I was to the Haze Bros and it bum's me out that people so far removed form the events try and tell me what happened, remember I was there.

-SamS

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BTW One of the Haze Bros spent all of the 80's & 90's in Mexico retired, the other Haze grower had quit growing Original Haze in 1980 because he found Skunk #1 easier to grow. Niether ever made large batches of seeds, and as far as I know neither had any Original Haze seeds left by the early 1980's

The Original Hazes never did have much hermis, maybe the Haze with Thai bloodlines had a few. We just never used hermis for breeding period.
They also traditionally gave 60-70 % the the plants female, the sex ratio was not 50/50.
All my best Original Hazes orver the years were late maturing not early.
BTW Original Haze is not Dutch genetics, it was developed in California, moved to Netherlands.

-SamS

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in 86 or 87 at the earliest, the main Haze Brother, R was gone, retired in Mexico by 82 he did not come back for 10 years. He was the one that created O Haze. The second Haze Brother J quit growing O Haze about 1980 and only grew Skunk #1 after that, until he became a reborn christian, then he quit growing, and anyway recently he told me he never met Neville and he certainly did not sell any Haze seeds to him or anyone else ever.
#2 The Haze Bros had a falling out in the late 70's and stopped talking to one another, for certain they did not sell seeds as the Haze Bros to anyone, it is ridiculous as well as impossible.

Both the Haze Bros were close friends of mine and both were close neighbors for years, J lived a few hundred meters from my house until he departed to Mexico.

-SamS

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Wild Sativas and Sativas cultivated for for sinsemilla like Thai have hermi problems, old time Colombian and mexican of the highest quality did not have hermi problems like you talk about.

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charlie garcia said,
"Sam have you ever brougth those worked Hazes or Thais to be grown back in Thailand for instance or in any other highland area of a different country?"

I don't believe in taking improved western bred Cannabis to areas of traditional Cannabis cultivation, they may spread their genes around and I don't think it is good.
BTW, Also it was 10,000 males, not 10,000 plants.
-SamS

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Yes Purple Original haze was absolutely a reality. It was around for more then a decade in the late 60's , 70's, and from then on in the form of hybrids. It came in silver, blue, reddish, as well as purple, and almost black. I grew, smoked, saw them all. They were real.

-SamS

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BTW, I bet most of the Hazes, my Original Haze or not, out there will improve most female Indica blood clones. And most clones do have Indica in them.

-SamS

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To be honest the purple Hazes were maybe stronger but not as clear or as up and high. I liked the lime greens with maybe a bit of Thai blood. I do remember a med dark purp Haze that tasted just like root beer, amazing. I also had a Kerala that tasted just like Vics Metholated it was Camphor for sure, strong as hell but not as clear as I like.
I grew mex seeds from a bag of weed in 1965.

-SamS

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bigherb said,
"sam can u describe the ohaze smell n taste?"

Fruity, Sweet & Sour, Rootbeer, Cola, Chocolate, very /resinous hashy smell and taste.

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jimbroker said,
" It seems to me like there are lots of different kinds to be found in original haze."

OHaze was fairly consistant as F1's but by the time it was f5 and above it segregated out into many different related lines.

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,
I have not worked Original Haze as much as tried to save it, I collected as much seed as I could in the early 70's grew them and did free pollinations and did minimal selection to ensure I saved as many genes as I could. That was in the 70's & 80's now I have clones for the last 20 years. My O Haze is not done being worked on that is why I tell people to use it as breeding materials.

-SamS

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Positronics got them from Sam, not Old Ed
-SamS

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Raco posted

Originally posted by Pacific
hi all,
wolfman,this is what ot1 said in a post about the haze you got from me.he posted this before I told him the line was being continued.

A little history.

There has never been to my knowledge any seed line of haze selected to just produce purple flowers and anyone selling seeds as such are not the full ticket.Haze was a loosely selected and somewhat variable IBL.It was a combination of some of the best sativas from round the world.Old Ed brought haze to Holland direct from the Haze brothers and that was who Wernard got them from.He never sold them as purple haze but original haze.It had them very inbred.if you sowed 100 seeds,75 to 80 of them were females.Out of these,only 5% of less would be special.The buds were on the foxtail type of line and the finished bud colour could be from a straw/golden yellow through to a mostly pale green to a very pale lilac/silvery look depending on the mother the bud came from..Generally the keepers needed round 16 weeks flowering and some wouldn´t finish at all unless taken down to 11/13 L/D.This was because the equatorial genes were very dominant.They need fairly intense lighting ,pref halide only.Once again I think that Wernard was the last person to have any pure Haze stock mothers in Holland and since he went bankrupt 4 o 5 years ago,there are no pure stock lines.Only so-called improved versions now exist,ie they have had indica crossed into them to shorten then flowering time and the plant height.It´s a shame this IBL was not conserved and also that several of the land based strains in its make up and now are lost.

He told me the beans were twelve years old!So that you got any plants at all is a miracle in itself
Peace

I´ve seen Pacific (Lady J ??) being called a LIAR more than once...

Click to expand...

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I don't think ot1 was lying, he had been misled, I knew Wernard from 1984 he got seeds and Haze 19 as he called it from me.

-SamS

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I never saw O Haze produce bonzais or other mutant plants, lower potency yes.
Maybe the seed producer was using just a few plants and inbred them too many times?

-SamS

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Charlie Garcia:
gracias Sam

Not these seeds were 1 generation after Odltimer spared them. Must say also he always acted like a gentleman to us. He spared houndreds of them during the 90's as he said, also he spared seeds of 3 different Haze lines. These are 1 of those, he never got news about other 2. Is only info I remember. An old thread at CW ended up also really messy and polemic but for what we wanted, information about plants, to talk about plants, was dificult to extract any info at all which could help and maybe lead us in some growing and selecting direction... Maybe better like this, so not other influence when we looked at them for the first time.

Much appreciated

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I know I always selected for large calyxs with Original Haze, and it was not so hard as OHaze has big calyxs anyway.

Yes I introduced California Orange.

-SamS

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Haze crossed with Haze will be lucky to have any improvement. I meant Haze crossed to another variety.

-SamS

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Cinderlla99:
Sam, I'm wondering if the modern TFD pure suffers from the same inbred vigor-lack as the original H does...ie: must be outcrossed to be appreciated. Thanks in advance for your response.

No

-SamS

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A 8-10 week Haze could be made. It would require an Original Haze that was a bit faster, crossed with a very early Sativa like my S African Durban Poison. Then select the F1's for Haze taste & smell & potency and as fast flowering as possible and make F2's.

The males may need to be trialed for specific combining ability to the females and to test their progeny to be sure you have the fastest most Hazy male.

If you grow out enough F2's you will find one that is Haze but fast flowering. But it may take a few hundred or even thousands of plants to find what you really want, a fast flowering Haze.

This will give you a clone that is what you want, a fast flowering Haze, but if you want a seed line that is fast flowering and basicly Original Haze it is a whole lot more work, all the males and females need to be progeny tested before the best are selected to yield only fast flowering Original Haze's.

I made Original Haze X early Sativa crosses, but did not make the F2's I just was playing around to see what happened. They were a bit earlier, between the O Haze and the Sativa, but not a super fast Haze like you want. It is not so hard to do, I have even made O Haze F2 hybrids that looked and tasted and smelled like O Haze but they had no THC, I crossed them with a very very low THC variety to see what happened and in the f2's I found plants that everyone who saw them would swear were potent Haze, but they had almost no THC or Cannabinoids. They did smell and taste great.

-SamS

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I smoked some BOEL pot back in the late 60's but never saw any strains that were maintained in any way. I suspect they were lost or maybe used to make hybrids. This is pre-clones and strains had to be maintained by seed lines, and that is a lot more work and a lot harder. That is why we don't see them any more.

-SamS

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Of the maybe 500+ varieties available today from seed sellers, maybe a few are maintained by seed lines, all the rest 490+ are maintained with clones. The reasons are simple, to maintain a Canbnabis variety by seeds only requires much bigger yearly grows, while from clones requires only two plants.

-SamS

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I can smell a vegetative Haze, but I do not use smell of vegetative plants to assist breeding. Now smells of flowering plants is a different matter. But to be honest it is not the smell as much as how the smells effect the high, when smoked.

-SamS

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That is my favorite use for O Haze, to make incredible hybrids often better then either parent. With any luck you will see what I mean.

-SamS

Nice thread. I have the Original Haze and made a few thousand f2's. I germ tested some and let them veg for a while but never flowered them for lack of space at the time. From what I could see in veg, the f2 were very consistent and looked just like the originals. I wish I had more time to delve further into the f2's. I've been talking with dubi about grabbing some Oldtimer's Haze so this should be an interesting thread.

Peace,
M

Thanks for sharing dude!!

The reason there's not much haze around is down to the difficulty in growing them, even outdoors you need to be at an adequate lattitude to grow these.


wats changed since the 70's except strict laws

big herb your saying the origional haze is from santa cruz and was crossed and given to the flying dutchman

yess sams brought her to holland from santa she was neva crossed

read my q for sams o.haze thread for info most of super pastety com from there

o.haze was a 4 way sat hybrid n id lov to kno wat happen to the first hbh hybrids of col x mex n alll others that floated that r long gone or just not available to the community

tfd / sams o.haze was bred toward the thai side
nev haze othaze n thohaze all seem to be more colombian dom n i think r diff lines
then sams especially

ot n tom hill hav not been crossed n throw purple phenos


no adam haze has incense traits yyy

ive asked sam bout the taste of o.haze sams response to taste had nothin too do wit mns hybrids or nyc haze hybrids that i believe com from nyc seeds of 69 which is identical in traits of taste n aromas high is subjective as always

if sams pre 85 was lumbo dom my q was wat did o.haze of 70's taste like yy would i get the thai s.ind breed description

soo reef salt anint kosher in ur eyes lol,but i find it very interestin how his description of hazebros haze is almost exact to our nyc haze ,i gave my description b4 knowledge of cannabis period n friends who hav noo knowledge/uneducated palate all hav the same taste description frankies is been around since the late 70's earlier 80's

SuperConductor said:

Even Tom Hill's Pure Haze is a hybrid, the buds are too dense and the plant structure too sturdy for it to be an actual pure haze. (I'm not saying Tom Hill is lying but that the seeds were hybridized before he got them unbeknown to him.)

Click to expand...

Your above statement has zero base in fact and is simply a false conclusion that a few have reached and decided to puke around the forums. Wernard has recently confirmed via a well respected member of this community (who had the same doubts as you) that positronics did in fact offer the pure version bred from Sam's stock, in addition to the hybrid (purple haze?) that you want to misread the info on and somehow attach to the above non-outcrossed line. Does he who has been out of biz for how long now have some reason to lie about this? What exactly is your pure haze experience and what was your source of seed? My guess is not much outside the super narrow phenos that the Dutch camp has isolated for breeding purposes. I have grown 1000 or so from the above source and there is nothing there that would lead me to believe it is anything other than as advertised. 75% +/- female, 14-16+ weeks of flowering, variable traits ranging from Mexican to Thai, from hay to holy shit. Variation that is seemingly forever locked into the line. Where are the 12 week phenotypes etc that your version of reality would surely bring? Nowhere to be found is the answer. Original Haze is a 4 way hybrid and it is the lines that don't show this variation that should be raising eyebrows imo. Is it so hard for you to believe that meaningful breeding could have transpired outside your realm of experience? As far as I am concerned there is only one man that could settle this once and for all and that man is Sam, not you. I'd be willing (if he is) to put a grip of samples in his hands and see if he detects any outside blood in there but I somehow think that even that may not be good enough for some of you? Continue on my slanderous misinformed friends, but know that you have a big fat and public mental bitch-slapping coming when all of the truth finally comes out, lol.

Hmmm, I can certainly see some possible merit behind my increasing facination for mingling Oldtimers Haze with Original Haze genetics in an upcoming experiment. all this info is a mighty stimulus to that idea

thanx

QB

Yea... You could probably do that and come up with a more potent "haze", but I think the verdict is that "haze" is elusive...It was never an IBL as, as Sam has pointed out, it was never completely worked into an IBL. Selection of hazes (1 in 20) is at the heart of capturing the essence of the "haze". There is an argument to be made that selecting a haze hybrid such as perhaps Nevilles, Mango, SSH or Mako will give you a better presentation of the elusive and mythical "haze" since selection and progeny testing has been performed already. My 2 cents.

Wow...Slow night here -- makes sense since 75% of readers are US based (according to Alexa webtraffic) and it is Saturday night here. Me? Married w/children

Also, not many folks, especially of the younger set are that interested in a full-on haze with 4 + months flowering... Not really meant for indoor growing...

Anyways, QB: as somebody already said, from what I understand, the OT1 has more land races, supposed "old school" haze genetics, and generally much more variable. The field has been widened recently and, according to OT1, there is no ONE "haze", just a loose name given to some Cali Sativas from back in the day (if we agree that the term "haze" doesn't necessarily apply only to the BOEL, Sacred and Haze Bro's grows). There is no monopoly or agreed upon touchstone for "haze"...

Anyways, the TFD OG is more "worked", stabalized to a Thai, fruity, etc...However, it is now weak since it has been inbred, F5, 10, 15 etc.. over at TFD, so needs to be outcrossed to be appreciated...

All of this has been said before. Take away for QB: If you breed the two together, you won't capture an IBL or any (agreed upon) "holy grail haze", but you may find that you have a more vigorous, potent and, perhaps, wider representaion of "haze". Without info on progeny testing, I'd tend to a TFD male, since it's more stable. The million dollar question is "How big is your space -- how many can you grow out and what are you going to select for?" DO IT

Oldtimer talked about 3 different "hazes" he had kept like you mentioned Cinderella, all 3 he spared them around the globe to different people in different countries. ACE one was the left "Haze" seedline he kept form oldtimes so its more an old time offspring or segregation maybe and more unworked meaning indeed. From citrics, to anisated to inciense aromas and lime green, dark green and purple traits

best

I love haze lines because they can express so many different smells/tastes and yet are all recognizable as a haze. They have an underlying quality that is unique to the line.

ACE's line looks as though it has greater diversity than the line offered by TFD.

Cinderella99 said:

Yea... You could probably do that and come up with a more potent "haze", but I think the verdict is that "haze" is elusive...It was never an IBL as, as Sam has pointed out, it was never completely worked into an IBL. Selection of hazes (1 in 20) is at the heart of capturing the essence of the "haze". There is an argument to be made that selecting a haze hybrid such as perhaps Nevilles, Mango, SSH or Mako will give you a better presentation of the elusive and mythical "haze" since selection and progeny testing has been performed already. My 2 cents.

Click to expand...

SSH is a large part Indica. How could this represent a true Haze feel when so much of the plant is Indica? I can understand Nevilles etc. I think SSH is a lot more indica then people realize. Todays SSH I would call it a 50/50 cross. Mostly Sativa's (like Skunk) don't have big fat leaves.

Also back to GHS and Arjan. One of the appeals of his seeds is that he uses many old time or 'elite' Haze and Sativa cuttings from all over the place.

If there was something like Arjans Haze etc that most likely has Origional Haze in it, is almost 100% satvia, and then it was crossed with some Origional Thai (as Skunkman mentioned how he liked that mix best), then wouldn't those strains in actuallity be the closest respresentation to Origional Haze?

To be honest, after reading everything the Skunman had to say, it seems that if you just plant Oldtimers Haze seeds you might get very long flowering, no THC plants.

However whenever bred together from a cutting, good things will happen.

And that seems to be exactly what Arjan is doing at GHS. He has all the elite world Sativa's (Thai, Laos, African, South American, Origional Hazes including Nevilles) and is mixing those Origional Hazes with his Thai's etc as wins Cannabis cup after Cannabis cup.

In the context of what sam the Skunkman said regarding the Hazes, why not enterain us and tell us what GHS Ultra Lemon Haze really is. Go over the lineage for us.

Now Compare those genetics with pollen chuckers all over the place creating Chemdog D, Chem D Super D Sour D Larry, OG KUSH DD x CHEM DD Larry G SOUR G IBXLIBX.

Rez said he takes his genetics and crosses them with NL. IMO that seems like watering down no matter which way you slice it and the NL never gets put in the Description. Just the 'IBXLBIXB' at the end of the description.

So once again, why doesn't someone take a world cup winner - GHS Ultra Lemon Haze, or any Arjan's Haze and go through the lineage and I think it will match to a T what Sam the Skunkman was talking about.

And one final question, once discussing the GHS lineage of those strains, would you consider them to be 'pollen chuckers' or something more than that.

Haze is divine, the biggest pain in the ass I have ever grown, looks like shit, tastes like paradise, hits you like acid and theres no roof, every single hit gets you higher...im still stuck working with haze hybrids, next up haze x DC and haze x DC/SK#1...and some OHxSK#1 f2's...and OHxSK#1 x DC/SK#1. Should be interesting. The haze x SWT#3 I made a while ago is a pretty good example how nice plants can result of crossing haze with something else..