passive plant killer

DevilWeed · May 12, 2011

I know coco consistency is important. That said, I'm a 100% Botanicare cocogrow gardener right now...just because that's what was available. I take a brick and drop it into 15g of nutes in a Rubbermaid tote. Few hours (or days) later, I tip the tote up on its side and let the excess liquid run out through 1/4" steel mesh. Then I stuff it into PPK's and grow big plants.

So if I add air to this mix somehow, I gets bigger plants? Hmm...

Coming soon to a thread near you:
4kw x 1 PPK = ?? We shall see.

jjfoo · May 12, 2011

DevilWeed said:
Way behind on this thread. I can throw .02 in on your experiment idea though mistress. I've run MANY MANY of my current strain in 5gal coco pots (non PPK). I started with coco handwatering. Then went to Blumats. Then PPK's. Same light footprint, same room, same plant. I could consistently get 8-10oz early on. As I switched to Blumats, the yields went up into the 12-15oz. My second real PPK plant (start to finish) yielded just shy of 20oz. Veg times have remained very close. It is a night and day difference! Now I've also improved my techniques during that time. Sooo...if you factor that in, maybe I'd be pulling 20oz from handwatered plants? Nope. They just grow so much bigger and do it faster in a PPK.

Bottom line for me is the two automated systems (Blumat & PPK) that keep the plants root zone in a consistent state (not wet/dry/wet/dry) produce bigger better plants faster.

how can you know how much your technique improved your grow vs the system?

If you have been growing for five years and getting steady results, that still wouldn't really count as scientific proof. There are way more variables than we know about. It is hard to get them out of the equation in a lab, let a lone a house.

I'm not saying the PPK's didn't help, I'm saying you can't know for sure.

I can say I do both PPK and hand watering next to each other. I have improved both, so if I would have switched to PPK's then I could falsely assume it was the equipment. I have found in a side by side grow that they can and do perform about equally.

Who knows how well I can dial the PPK's in. Still not saying they wont ultimately do better, just can't be sure...

ImaginaryFriend · May 12, 2011

Quoted for truth:

couscous.... thats sik

sprightly gerbils qualify this as organic?

Not just organic.

Superfuckingduper Organic.

cyat · May 12, 2011

This thread is so long i really have no idea what a ppk is. After all the changes what is it right now?

ImaginaryFriend · May 12, 2011

This thread is so long i really have no idea what a ppk is. After all the changes what is it right now?

It's kinda like a magic carpet, but not quite as blue. A little more glow, if you catch my drift.

It is the offspring of crazy salamander style crossed with three handed monkey style.

Some people have compared it to a honey badger, only not quite as gentle.

A PPK really doesn't give a shit.

You know that when you see it.

Current Buildout of D9's PPK.

You should definitely build it, cyat. Definitely. It's like your passive hydro. But in the next timezone. You know. Metastraospheric Kinda Shit 'Round Here. You'll really get a kick out of it. And you only need three gallons of coco per 23 oz plant. Instead of the big pots. It Is Easy. Grows like babies on EGH. That's Elephant Growth Hormones to the uninitiated.

Eat that Baby!

Get Big Baby.

But most importantly:

Baby Never Forget.

And it's way easier to build than your tree machines!

*I updated the start of my super-important-thread, to add a couple of links back to D9's current set up, and a couple of quick thoughts back on tech. If anyone is a little behind, my version of the 'theory and build' is only a page long if you don't follow all the links.

Then it gets all personal and goes to crap.

cyat · May 12, 2011

Damn I.F thats some rocket science shit. I read the pages you recommended and more and really have no clue how it works. simpler than a tree machine not a chance. seems very cool tho like what you guys are doin!

ImaginaryFriend · May 12, 2011

On a bad day, I can make pooping complicated.

It is a bucket with some holes in it:

Stick a tube in the bottom hole:

Eventually, you are going to fill the bucket and the tube with coco. You have to do something clever to keep the coco in the tube. Like this:

Then there's another bucket, and a hole in it's lid:

Put the bucket with the tube coming out the bottom on top of the other bucket:

The lower bucket get's plumbed to a control bucket with a float valve. You only need one for the whole system of PPKs. This defines the level of the solution in the lower bucket reservoirs.

The pipe acts as a wick. We refer to it as a media wick, as it is packed with the same media as the rest of the g.unit. That's clever for grow unit. Which is not clever for whatever I can't think of right now.

The pipe also acts as a sump. Literally. Due to fluid dynamics and shit, medias of a certain structure collect a Perched Water TAble. If you go to the first page in my thread, I go into more detail, and link to the discussions in this thread.

In this thread, we refer to the space between the top of the feed solution level and the bottom of the media bucket as the 'Air Gap.'

This is adjusted to control the moisture profile in the media, and is used to move the PWT out of the primary root zone.

The second major element of the design is an automated 'pulse feed'. Rather than dripping nutes across the top, large quantities of solution are deployed quickly (16 oz over twenty seconds every two hours, for example). As this 'puddle' perks it's way through, it forces gas exchange and brings all salts back into solution, preventing build up.

Pretty simple.

But so is your tree machine, I guess.

Heath is clever. Good model to learn from.

ImaginaryFriend · May 12, 2011

Who remembers oldone?

Say something, oo!!!!!!! So we know you're alive!

Darth Fader · May 12, 2011

ImaginaryFriend said:
On a bad day, I can make pooping complicated.

It is a bucket with some holes in it:

Stick a tube in the bottom holepic)

Eventually, you are going to fill the bucket and the tube with coco. You have to do something clever to keep the coco in the tube. Like thispic)

Then there's another bucket, and a hole in it's lid:
(pic)

Put the bucket with the tube coming out the bottom on top of the other bucket:
(pic)

First of all, that's WAA:AAyY too complic8ted.
2nd, where are you supposed to poop?
3rd - do the buketz hafta be black?
4th - if you really want to increase 02, why not ramp up the (oxygenated) water-flow? There is no such thing as over-watering, only under-oxygenating. (stolen from GratefulHead).
:blowbubbles:

ImaginaryFriend · May 12, 2011

if you really want to increase 02, why not ramp up the (oxygenated) water-flow?

To be kinda serious, air holds more 02 than even fully saturated water in unpressurized systems (hooray for aeroponics). Then again, with enough pressure, we could be running liquid O2 over our root zones. But then the universe might explode. Or implode. Either way, you'll have to fill out formal damage report on the company vehicle.

So don't do it.

Paperwork sucks.

Oh, yeah. I was saying that the pulse, in theory, forces the gas to be exchanged within the very porous (i.e. 30% air content) media. So there's no call for oxygenated water, as the root zone should be getting fresh air (i.e. loads of O2) all the time.

oldone · May 12, 2011

ImaginaryFriend said:
Who remembers oldone?

Say something, oo!!!!!!! So we know you're alive!

I be here boys. Sun burnt, head cold and catching up on my sleep after the Florida vacation.

Driving down 2 weeks ago just after the tornadoes hit...those poor people. Driving back saw ~ 40 dead deer on the mountain roads of Tennessee, W Virgina et., al. Missed 2 live ones by sheer luck.

Had a fantastic time and have accumulated major brownie points with the boss.

Starting up my cab soon,
OO

cyat · May 12, 2011

I.F thanks for that detailed explanation. so the tire valves are for sending nutes from the controller? you broke it down still seems more complex than takin a shit?
So the media wick isnt enuff to feed the plant, its just to help w the perched water table?
I like the air pruning holes, but I'm trying to seal out gnats and aphids.
I love how you guy keep improving this design

delta9nxs · May 12, 2011

cyat said:
I.F thanks for that detailed explanation. so the tire valves are for sending nutes from the controller? you broke it down still seems more complex than takin a shit?
So the media wick isnt enuff to feed the plant, its just to help w the perched water table?
I like the air pruning holes, but I'm trying to seal out gnats and aphids.
I love how you guy keep improving this design

hey, cyat! it's very simple to build and operate even if the principles that make it work are still being understood and refined.

so far, no one to my knowledge has had a plant fail in one.

the media wick is capable of growing a nice plant alone. what we have discovered is that some top watering gets a heavier plant.

the pulse system in conjunction with the sub irrigation produces even larger plants. still fine tuning it.

the holes in the grow containers are more for o2 enhancement than for root pruning. i feel that short term crops do not benefit from air pruning roots as much as they benefit from better o2 access to the roots.

well, thanks for your interest. if you have any questions feel free to ask.

d9

cyat · May 13, 2011

D9n thanks for your time, and explanation.
so what are the tire valves for?whats the pulse system?

delta9nxs · May 13, 2011

cyat, i just re-plumbed my veg system.

this shows the tire valves used to connect the plant reservoirs and the pump bucket to the control bucket. all of these lines are blue.

the pulsed irrigation system uses the black drip tubing with the white "t's" delivering solution to the top at whatever frequency and duration you choose.

i chose to do this with the cyclestats as i knew i would be experimenting but there are timers and computer software that can do it too.

the pulse system runs open lines so no emitters to clog. delivery volume is equal if line length is equal.

the slack in the lines enables you to move plants around a little and pick up a container to dump it for cleaning.

this system is very low maintenance.

d9

jjfoo · May 13, 2011

Imaginary Friend,

Why not just set the top bucket in a 5 gallon? Then you don't need a lid with a hole. My system is much like yours. I use a 3 gallon with a tail piece. The tail pieces I bought are a perfect fit to the bottom of the 5 gal. I just stuff the coco in and from the top till it wont come out any more. Since it is so fibrous I haven't seen the need to close up the bottom. It sits in the water and all stays in the tube for the life of the grow.

zeke99 · May 13, 2011

delta9nxs said:
...The first photo is a complete “grow module”. It is shown with everything except the pulse feed line. Materials are 2 3.5 gal buckets, 1 lid, 2 tire valves, a 6” sink tailpiece, and a piece of 3/16” ID black latex tubing about 3” long.

This thing is brilliant I can't believe it doesn't garner more attention.

question #1: Is it correct that you don't recommend using it with something other than coco?

I can't get good coco, so have been playing around with a few different things. For now I'm using LC1 Suncoir from Sungro which is Canadian Sphagnum peat moss, coarse perlite, SUN-COIR (coco), starter nutrient charge (with Gypsum) and dolomitic limestone. It is a a lightweight, low bulk density, high porosity mix.

Why wouldn't it work? The Earthtainer type things were designed by people using 'potting mixes', which are similar to what I use now and your device is a cousin of the Earthainer, right?

question #2: Let's say I built one or a few to play around with the low-tech version, i.e. utilizing the bottom rez and occasional top watering.

What is next after the construction, plant and water until...?

jjfoo · May 13, 2011

ImaginaryFriend said:
More preferred might be turface, rice hulls, whatever the hell calcified DE is, crushed volcanic rock, dead coral, or three sprightly gerbils. Mak)

Have you ever used turface? From my exp it would not be a good choice to open up fine coco.

Turface holds too much water for my taste and when mixed with coco it is really heavy. I made Al Taplas mix and had some left over Turface, so I mixed it with coco and was surprised how much water it held.

jjfoo · May 13, 2011

zeke99 said:
question #1: Is it correct that you don't recommend using it with something other than coco?
ople using 'potting mixes', which are similar to what I use now and your device is a cousin of the Earthainer, right?

question #2: Let's say I built one or a few to play around with the low-tech version, i.e. utilizing the bottom rez and occasional top watering.

you could use another medium, you may need to amend it with something like perlite if it is too heavy

I have a low tech version that I hand water every few days, I usually water till I get some overflow and remove some runoff from time to time as needed by my out door stuff.

It is a great way to extend the watering frequency when using coco. I can use smaller pots and they don't need to be watered twice a day, but rather can go for a few days because they bottom water.

I think the whole concept of growing with a wick and a proper air gap is really cool. Many plants in nature grow this way. There are plants that get infrequent watering in my area but are green all year. Some of these plants have may have hit the water table and don't even need watering.

Darth Fader · May 13, 2011

ImaginaryFriend said:
To be kinda serious, air holds more 02 than even fully saturated water in unpressurized systems (hooray for aeroponics).

Paperwork sucks.

Oh, yeah. I was saying that the pulse, in theory, forces the gas to be exchanged within the very porous (i.e. 30% air content) media. So there's no call for oxygenated water, as the root zone should be getting fresh air (i.e. loads of O2) all the time.

Paperwork is my downfall. But if pulsing water is the delivery mechanism for forcing gas exchange, and i.e. delivering O2, why not more? How could that be a bad thing? Are ya scurred of oxygen poisoning? :dance013:

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