Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

EclipseFour20 said:

You will not win if you exclusively use Imid.

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Simply put, that's incorrect. All my RAs were killed wit a single application of Imid. That was a heavy infestation in Coco. They don't die instantaneously, as they have to ingest sufficient amount before dying, and this takes time. Mine were all dead after a week. At first, when mine weren't all dead the first few days, I got a bit panicky. But patience is key. Also this is probably media dependent. I think it's easier to kill them in Coco. Just let the pot dry, and those plants are very thirsty. They suck up the drench immediately.I think this process is slower in soil, and slower still in hydro, as the plants are already hydrated, and won't absorb sufficient amounts as rapidly. I'm guessing a foliar spray will work better in hydro, as an addendum to adding it to the rez, as it will be absorbed into the plant immediately. Having said that, I don't do hydro, so haven't tested this theory, but farmers who have lots of acreage use foliar spray, and it works for them.
Botaniguard is a good second approach for those who don' want to introduce any chemicals, but it is much more expensive, and will take longer, with no guarantee of 100% success, which you need with RAs, or you could be battling them again. These RAs are so devastating to your plants, that I wanted to get rid of them as fast as possible. After using Bayer Advanced one time, which also has a contact killer in addition to systemic killer, I have not seen a single RA, or a single fungus gnat or springtail, and this is more than a year later.
Note: Imid has been used to kill fleas in dogs for decades, taken internally or applied to the skin in drops. The dogs are not hurt by this, so this pretty much confirms the safety of the product, IMO.

Sorry Retro, but I disagree with your approach of battling RAs with a "one trick pony" (Imid exclusively); if Imid was the holy grail for RAs, then why do so many people still have RAs after repeated doses--even at 50ml per gallon per plant? No...I prefer not to follow stoner logic...rather I listened to professionals, too many people with alphabet soup behind their name have written and preached about pesticide resistance--which is the point I am sharing: variety is the key.

BTW I doubt you ever used Botanigard personally--since it's rootball soak kill rate is less than 24 hours, how can you suggest it takes longer than Imid? Yes Botanigard is more expensive, but in flower, there really is no other good alternative--unless you like chems, besides my cost worked out to be about $10 per plant (not too much for an investment of 50-80 grams of flowers). Of course, in life nothing is ever guaranteed and with over 300 varieties of RAs, what works today may not work tomorrow--but two rootball treatments (3 days a part) of Botanigard had a 100% effective rate in ridding RAs in my flower environment. Remember, as a progressive grower I could not shut down for a week to clean house--rather I have continuous flow of plants moving from veg to the flower environment; perhaps a bit more complex than most.

Did you calculate the number of grams of Imid you delivered each plant? Hopefully not termiticide levels...and what about the residual in your flowers? Not everything at high levels is good. That is one of my concerns--too many growers throwing poison around not realizing some of that poison accumulates in the plant matter. If you ever had the opportunity to taste my flowers, then you know I am all about flavors and potency. Hence I mix my own soil, incorporate four different bat guanos, between root cube and 3 gallon containers there are 5 transplants, brew a collection of compost teas, heavy foliar feeding, and of course we have all these lovely crazy microbes generating great bacterial-fungal action...since I feed the soil--I seldom if ever feed the plant. Not the same as growing with coco.

Just saying...stoner logic (repeated doses of Imid--using the same Mode of Action over and over--doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result) is not what the professional do; they adhere to a rotation of different MoA and incorporate a comprehensive IPM program (which I have done). Just saying, don't expect to win the war with a one trick pony.

EclipseFour20 said:

Sorry Retro, but I disagree with your approach of battling RAs with a "one trick pony" (Imid exclusively); if Imid was the holy grail for RAs, then why do so many people still have RAs after repeated doses--even at 50ml per gallon per plant? No...I prefer not to follow stoner logic...rather I listened to professionals, too many people with alphabet soup behind their name have written and preached about pesticide resistance--which is the point I am sharing: variety is the key.

BTW I doubt you ever used Botanigard personally--since it's rootball soak kill rate is less than 24 hours, how can you suggest it takes longer than Imid? Yes Botanigard is more expensive, but in flower, there really is no other good alternative--unless you like chems, besides my cost worked out to be about $10 per plant (not too much for an investment of 50-80 grams of flowers). Of course, in life nothing is ever guaranteed and with over 300 varieties of RAs, what works today may not work tomorrow--but two doses (3 days a part) of Botanigard had a 100% effective rate in ridding RAs in my flower environment. Remember, as a progressive grower I could not shut down for a week to clean house--rather I have continuous flow of plants moving from veg to the flower environment; perhaps a bit more complex than most.

Did you calculate the how many grams of Imid you delivered to your plants? Hopefully not termiticide levels...and what about the residual on your flowers? That is one of my concerns--too many growers throwing poison around not realizing it accumulates. If you ever had the opportunity to taste my flowers, then you know I am all about flavors and potency. Hence I mix my own soil, incorporate four different bat guanos, between root cube and 3 gallon containers there are 5 transplants, brew a collection of compost teas, heavy foliar feeding, and of course we have all this crazy microbes that generate all the great bacterial-fungal action...since I feed the soil--I seldom if ever feed the plant. Not the same as growing with coco.

Just saying...stoner logic (repeated doses of Imid--using the same Mode of Action over and over--doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result) is not what the professional do; they adhere to a rotatation of different MoA and incorporate a comprehensive IPM program (which I have done). Just saying, don't expect to win the war with a one trick pony.

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First of all,Imid is not a "one trick pony"
If you use Bayer Advanced. It's two tricks. People who don't have success with it are probably doing it wrong. More than likely their plants are not drinking due to RA damage, or they are in hydro, and the chems are not getting absorbed fast enough, hence the recommendation of a foliar spray. That's how farmers do it. I used the minimum dosage of Bayer Advanced, one time, with 100% success rate, and RAs never returned.
Plants that are in flower may be too badly damaged at that late stage.
Never had need to use Botaniguard, as I discovered mine in veg. Also a $12 bottle of Advanced will last my lifetime, if it didn't expire first. I have nothing against Botaniguard. It is a good solution if you are in flower, but as you said, it takes 2 doses.
If people would check their roots one in a while during veg, the problem would not get out of hand, or, better yet just dose their plants in veg, regardless if they are seeing damage first, they would prevent RAs from ever getting established.
I can see you are an organic grower, hence it's natural for you to have a bias against all chems.
I have no problem with that. To each his own.
But if RAs are discovered early enough before too much root damage occurs, Imid is 100% effective. Their is no resistance build up, because there is only a single application. Most people here are talking Bayer Tree & Shrub, which is simply the wrong product, as it lingers longer, especially in soil, due to higher concentrations.
I always look for minimum dosage when applying chems or nutes, for that matter. That means Bayer Advanced, or Bayer Citrus, which are formulated for food products.
Also, your insinuation that I did not research this before using Imid is wrong. I have Google, too.
To each his own.
Early prevention by checking roots early in veg is probably the best cure. Then you won't have to deal with it in flower.

I understand Retro where you are coming from and you are probably right--for a small grow operation like yours, Imid could be your holy grail...then I guess my advice for rotating different Modes of Actions is not for you.

But you should understand something first, since Imid only has a single Mode of Action (4A--Nicotinic Acetylcholine Receptor Disruptors), it truly is a "one trick pony"--so please don't fool yourself or others. Yes, Imid is both a systemic and a contact--and some pesticides are also translaminar (penetrates leaf tissues), while others are just plain ingested by the critters--but these are "types" of action--not "modes" of action. Rotating different Mode of Action is the information I am sharing to those that want to learn. (Sometimes google is not the only authority...so if you never used Botanigard--then why are you rendering an opinion on something you know zero about? Google was wrong I guess).

BTW...my darkside cocktail (posted in this forum) is 100% NON organic--yes 100% chems. Just thought you might wanna understand where I am coming from--seems your first impression of Eclipse kinda missed the mark.

Cheers!

EclipseFour20 said:

Yes, Imid is both a systemic and a contact-

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Incorrect.
Imid is not a contact killer.
It is strictly systemic.
Bayer Advanced also contains a contact killer.

It can be administered both by a drench, or foliarly, which would be more appropriate in hydro. The drench works best in Coco.
RAs are most likely brought into the grow room by soil, like you are doing.
Also you have again twisted what I said about Botaniguard. It does work, but I have never had to use it because with Imid, it' one and you're done. No need to use something that costs 10 times as much, and which you have to repeat.
But it seems you are just looking for an argument.
To each his own. If you like Botaniguard, by all means use.
However if you checked your roots in veg, you would never need to use it in flower.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

RetroGrow said:

Incorrect.
Imid is not a contact killer.
It is strictly systemic..

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Dude you are so wrong....misinformation is worse than no information! Maybe you ought to consider writing fairy tales or other fiction--cuz your facts are so fucked up.

First sentence, 2nd page...

http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/imidacloprid.pdf

"Imidacloprid is designed to be effective by contact or ingestion. It is a systemic insecticide that translocates rapidly through plant tissues following application." Hence its used as a spray on firewood and structures for termite control; no systemic function necessary. Yep, Imid is a "one trick pony" with a Mode of Action of: 4A--Nicotinic Acetylcholine Receptor Disruptor.

Now...you have an interesting complication: you are debating me...but unwittingly followed my advice. You see that particular Bayer Advanced pesticide in the pic contains two different pesticides with 2 different Modes of Action: Imid--MoA group 4a and beta cyfluthrin-MoA group 3a, Sodium Channel Blocker (Pyrethroids)--I am talking about exclusive use of Imid. Hmmm, now re-read my first recent post and I stand by my original statement-- You will not win if you exclusively use Imid. Hitting RAs with the same pesticide--or "Mode of Action"--repeatedly and exclusively will cause the surviving RAs to become resistant and potentially morph into super RAs.

You applied 2 different chems with 2 different MoA--which kinda helps my argument. So please take your bullshit stoner stupid misinformation and go away...RAs are a serious problem and I am sharing facts and results that worked--not bullshit theories that some dummy stoner googled (ie Botanigard--your opinion was based on what?...not experience...pure bullshit hearsay...got anything better for plants in flower?...if so, please share!).

BTW...my opinions are based on experiences and facts (with authoritative links)--you my friend have provided zero facts to support your erroneous conclusions.

Cheers!

Thanks to everyone that replied and helped out.

i have finally gotten rid of the RA's for now and i am very happy about that. i am going to treat things in veg on the next round to make sure but its looking good so far. I did treat the plants in veg one last time but this time went with the Bayer Complete just to hit them with a different mode.

With the bayer complete, i soaked the DWC buckets filled all the way up including the hydroton for 4 hrs with the air stones off then drained solution to the normal level and turned the air pumps on for 1 hr. This was with a mixture of plain water and bayer complete at 1 tbsp/gallon(15ml). The bayer complete solution with the pumps on created bubbles that would flow out the top of the buckets all over the floor. Even after pouring plain water through the netpots/hydroton, spraying the roots, and changing the solution to regular nutrients there were still way too many bubbles. i waited a couple days and kept adding water when the levels went down but the bubbles never decreased. I had to rinse the hydroton and roots and change the solution all over again to get rid of them. i also want to mention the roots took a lot of damage from the treatment. you could see all the ends/tips burnt and shriveled up. i would decrease the strength or exposure time if i did this again which i hope i never do. if i ever encounter these RAs again i will switch to rockwool for a few runs because it is a pain in the ass to try to apply these chemicals in DWC. especially applying chemicals that need direct contact. i think the buckets must be filled because the RAs sometimes hang out on the underside of the lid and they also crawl around the top of the netpot by stem so the whole netpot and hydroton must be submerged. this is a problem because the hytdroton is buoyant and everything starts floating and the plant starts moving around - roots getting damaged. Another problem with individual DWC buckets is changing the solution often damages the roots with all the handling. so what im saying is these things took a beating! but they are resilient and came back very strong. tons of new bright white roots with herring bone shapes and many fine hairs. growth i have not seen the likes of in about a year i am embarrassed to say but thanks to you guys for helping me knock them out.

i also want to mention i was under the assumption after the imid treatment, the RA's would pretty much be gone in 5-7 days. this was not the case after i treated them but i was later told it may take a little longer. i believe i was impatient and if i waited a bit longer, i may not have needed the last treatment. maybe this info can help others using DWC that have this problem. i went very strong on the application strengths because i was experimenting with the different products and didnt mind having a few casualties. the spectracide triazicide, bayer tree and shrub, and bayer complete all worked with positive effects(along with a few negatives) but i would go lower on the concentration and exposure times than i did for DWC and not even use the spectracide unless it was an emergency.

EclipseFour20 said:

Dude you are so wrong....misinformation is worse than no information! Maybe you ought to consider writing fairy tales or other fiction--cuz your facts are so fucked up.

First sentence, 2nd page...

http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/imidacloprid.pdf

"Imidacloprid is designed to be effective by contact or ingestion. It is a systemic insecticide that translocates rapidly through plant tissues following application." Hence its used as a spray on firewood and structures for termite control; no systemic function necessary. Yep, Imid is a "one trick pony" with a Mode of Action of: 4A--Nicotinic Acetylcholine Receptor Disruptor.

Now...you have an interesting complication: you are debating me...but unwittingly followed my advice. You see that particular Bayer Advanced pesticide in the pic contains two different pesticides with 2 different Modes of Action: Imid--MoA group 4a and beta cyfluthrin-MoA group 3a, Sodium Channel Blocker (Pyrethroids)--I am talking about exclusive use of Imid. Hmmm, now re-read my first recent post and I stand by my original statement-- You will not win if you exclusively use Imid. Hitting RAs with the same pesticide--or "Mode of Action"--repeatedly and exclusively will cause the surviving RAs to become resistant and potentially morph into super RAs.

You applied 2 different chems with 2 different MoA--which kinda helps my argument. So please take your bullshit stoner stupid misinformation and go away...RAs are a serious problem and I am sharing facts and results that worked--not bullshit theories that some dummy stoner googled (ie Botanigard--your opinion was based on what?...not experience...pure bullshit hearsay...got anything better for plants in flower?...if so, please share!).

BTW...my opinions are based on experiences and facts (with authoritative links)--you my friend have provided zero facts to support your erroneous conclusions.

Cheers!

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You're obviously a whack job.

Ok, so I cleaned and bombed my room after a severe infestation into my recirc. bubbler bucket setup. I was reinfested, but I was keeping an eye out so I caught them early before any defeciences became apparant or any fliers came out.

I put roughly 2 ml per/gl of tree and shrub and just let in circulate with the nutes for about 4-5 days and just kept with my usual feeding schedule. All I can see almost two weeks later is DEATH. I can't find a live RA anywhere. Dead bugs being washed into the res. but nothing is alive, all curled up and gnarly like a dead spider. Thank you for researching this. After this treatment these things don't scare the crap out of me anymore. I may even treat my next clones I get with a weak solution of T&S as a preventative to make sure they don't come back.

Thanks again whoever started this thread!!

stuntedgrowth said:

I may even treat my next clones I get with a weak solution of T&S as a preventative to make sure they don't come back. !

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Those "weak solution" treatments for shits and grins can lead to resistant bugs that don't keel over and die. - or it dosen't kill them and you have issues later anyway.


If you need it - use it - the right way.
If you don't need it,,, why would a half dose help????

The treating of new clones - that is a good idea. If you want to utilize a standard treatment for new clones - a multiple step treatment is usually best,


I am hearing more and more about mites that are increasingly resistant to control agents that have been mis-used. So why risk a worse case senerio?


Just passin thru,,,,,

RockyMountainHi said:

Those "weak solution" treatments for shits and grins can lead to resistant bugs that don't keel over and die. - or it dosen't kill them and you have issues later anyway.


If you need it - use it - the right way.
If you don't need it,,, why would a half dose help????

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My thinking is if I get clones contaminated with RA's again it will wipe them out before I even know they are there.

I am fairly new at this as well, but with 4 decent harvests under my belt with only 3 applications of azamax I haven't really had to deal with any bug issues. So I am not quick to spray and pray. I will heed your advice and not treat new clones until I see them again, which I hope I don't.

I was just very happy I took care of them without much work.

Do they live here in CO? or only come from other contaminated gardens?

stuntedgrowth said:

My thinking is if I get clones contaminated with RA's again it will wipe them out before I even know they are there.

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Good plan - just skip the "weak solution" part and use it according to the fucking instructions.

Part of a dose - ISN"T ENOUGH - If it was, maybe we could teach them to read and just set the bottle in the room. Right?

Whatever

Appearantly, there is reason for the "stuntedgrowth" name huh?


Clones are a good source - and they live here now, so how they got here is not really important, but there is a group who thinks selling bugs and contaminated cuts is good business. For them.

If you don't buy their clones - you will prolly get better stock and fewer problems.

i got same thing happening to me now. am using KLN to help root rebuilding, azamax,imaclod,neem,perethium,bti,diatomatious earth

RockyMountainHi said:

...I am hearing more and more about mites that are increasingly resistant to control agents that have been mis-used....

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I hear you! I discovered pesticide resistance normally is not from "lite dosages"--rather it is an "inherited trait". Usually from using pesticide(s) with the same Mode of Action (MoA) over and over and over--resulting in the surviving generation of pests to become somewhat immune...sort of like a generation of evolved super bugs with increased resistance.

Hence my discussion how the bug pros rotate insecticides with different Modes of Actions; why not learn from the professionals?...no reason to "reinvent the wheel". But obviously, we have one unenlightened person that thinks MoA information is "whack" and prefers his stoner stupid ideas--even though he has zero science, proof or facts.

But hey, it just proves you can't fix stupid!

Great reference...and a must read.
Resistance, Mode of Action, and Pesticide Rotation

You can increase your tollerance to anything by gradually increasing the doseages - I can use my cannabis consumption as proof positve!!! lol

It is the same for antibiotiotics - People only take part of the scrip - either dont take the pills on schedual or stop too soon,,,, - the sick bugs (bugs that make people sick) develop immunity and that antibiotioc becomes useless and the sick bug wins.

Stoner mentality,,,,, hey - I resemble that.


And that, in one way or another is most always what kinda caused my garden issues.


now what was I talking about,,,, oh yeah,,,,

Some growers - usually comercial opps like to use "preventative treatments" - I don't want to smoke their bud.

My theroy is have multiple line of defence. If your first choice hasn't cured the issue - then go to the second weapon. Fix the issue then stop. If you don't have bugs - bug killer is not needed Find the source - how the bugs got into the grow - and fix it.


But to use both on a rotating basis - for insurance? I think the grow has more issues than one species of bug.

Stress - recurring infection, nutrient/airflo - to name a few,,,,
I don't do comercial or mass quantity, so I have time to concentraite on quality. And I do.

A healthy and strong garden isn't likey to go to hell over the occasional bug or two. Add a wake-n-bake lifestyle and get lazy - it's only a matter of time till summtin falls off and even preventative treatment won't fix all the problems.

It's like making wine - the best vineyards are not run by winos

Rocky...I think we are saying the same thing. Resistance is caused by many things--I am just injecting that dosage does not seem to be a huge factor when it comes to critters and insecticidal resistance; evidently they are quick to respond or adapt to their environment.

From the above link...2nd paragraph:

"Arthropod pests in greenhouses and nurseries are principally managed with pesticides (insecticides and miticides). These pests possess the inherent ability to adapt to various environmental and human disturbance factors such as pesticide applications. Continual reliance on pesticides leads to resistance, which is the genetic ability of some individuals in a population to survive exposure. In other words, the pesticide no longer kills a sufficient number of individuals to be considered effective."

So what happens after 10 ml per gallon does not work? We go to 20, 30, 50, 100ml? What is the maximum limit on a per plant-per season basis? Instead of maxing out the dosage (aka overdosing) on a single insecticide (with one MoA)--consider using lessor amounts of several insecticides (several MoA)--you just might reduce the overall chemical residual in the plant matter. Example...a single application of Imid can stay in the soil for years...and the dosage level for a single plant is not very much.

My research indicates that pros (even wineries) don't jack up the dosage to "termiticide" levels--rather they incorporate an "integrated pest management" program including a rotation of pesticides with different Modes of Action (many are zero chems--100% OMRI organic)...thereby reducing chemical insecticide usage (something we all want...quality weed without chems!).

Just saying, don't expect to win the battle against RAs if your only weapon is Imid (with a single MoA--1 trick pony)...cuz insecticidal resistance will get you, irregardless of the dosage level.

Cheers!

Ask Osama about built up resistance - ohh ya can't cause he's dead.

That's my point - if you kill them the first time - there is no fucking way they can build up resistance.

If you always have traces of un needed insectacide (s) in the grow - that is the fertile breeding ground for accuired immunity - and that is the enemy. So no - we are not saying the same thing.

We have the same goal!

I maintain vigulagance and don't use a product until its needed. I do not bring infected plants into my grow, thus avoiding the most likely to be "resistant" bugs.

You keep throwing shit into the garden and hoping you get lucky. I've tried that,,,,,

I'd rather have an ounce of the finest herb than 10 kilos of crap.

There's buyers for both, I'm sure. but peoiple that seek mine, won't touch yours. And customers of providers like you, are easy converts.

I also think you are missing the fact that smaller plants will need a smaller dose so they don't fry out. I certainly wouldn't use the full dose strength for a tree for my foot tall plants and I wouldn't use the same dose for a foot tall plant as I would for a 4 inch plant. T&S has nutes in it and too much will fry your plants, which I thought you would be aware of. So, for plants that are half as tall a half dose would be appropriate.

And by the way I did fine until I got infected clones, my garden didn't get infected from laziness or lack of diligence. Like I said I have been going over a year with no bug problems because I did my research and set up a solid sealed enviroment. I have gone almost a year with only 4 treatments of azamax. If your careful and diligent you shouldn't need to use anything very often.

BTW, I got the clones from Sense of Healing on 10th and colfax. Don't go there....

stuntedgrowth said:

I am fairly new at this as well, but with 4 decent harvests under my belt

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stuntedgrowth said:

I also think you are missing the fact that smaller plants will need a smaller dose so they don't fry out. IBTW, I got the clones from Sense of Healing on 10th and colfax. Don't go there....

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my clones - if they have roots - they don't know they are young - they want - and will take full strength nute and are treated as "adults" (Because they are) - If your getting weak clones - they are probably sick before you got them so like you said - don't go there

Seedlings - if your starting seedlings in a bug outbreak,,,, you have more issues than bugs.


oh yea,, 4 harvests under your belt,, thats right. You know it all huh????

Me? I been going strong for over 15 years - and I'm still learning.

Cause every fucking time I think I know it all,,,, I get a new lesson.

stuntedgrowth said:

I got the clones from Sense of Healing on 10th and colfax. Don't go there....

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....... I was taking a shower going,, 10th and Colfax,,,, 10th and Colfax.... 10th runs parallell to Colfax
I want a bud of what your smokin!!!!!
On second thought,,, you are prolly one of those "lightweight types"
nevermind......

stuntedgrowth said:

BTW, I got the clones from Sense of Healing on 10th and colfax. Don't go there....

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But they do all their 'high-end' stuff themselves.
Almost busted out laughing when I got told that when they were building the place.
Maybe they're better carpenters than growers?


RMH: 10th and Fed.
We were all lightweights at one time in our lives.