Breeding discussion

heh dude i just saw your signature and realized there a mistake in the first sentence from the post by head

1) "An Ibl can't be F-anything, that only applies to hybrids"

...and you also modified an other mistake in the last sentence;

2) "An 'S1' of (enter strain here) would be a polyhybrid F2, and there is not a botanist out there who will disagree"
~head was talkin about trainwreck and not any random strain like you posted there (enter strain here) -now that looks really dummy. sorry dude, you heavy misunderstand the basics; an S1 from an ibl (lets say deep chunk) can not be a polyhybrid F2
*i would recommend that you correct your signature if you want to "help" others and not only lookin comical.

~the first sentence is just like i would see it for the first time... was not realizing it earlier in the other thread hehe ...but i made a fast check and head posted this indeed... so we may have to continue the discussion with head, because IBL's (inbred-lines) are not only old landrace varieties that are growing in the wild or were worked in an other country (i mean in-line crossed, so they are still pure-lines). An ibl can be also created from hybrids (for example the skunk or blueberry are the result of classic inbreeding techniques) The F stands for filial (child) and of course it's used by hybrids, but as already said, we can also inbred a new stable (homozygous) line from the initial hybrid parents. Dj's blueberry is inbred till the F4 generation and she is a relatively true-breeding strain for most traits... not very dominant in the crosses though. anyway, lets stay with the blueberry - the point is that she is an F4 IBL. i made some beans (the F5) and the phenotypes are highly similar to the plants from the F4 generation (original blueberry). F4 x F4 = F5 etc...so i obviously inbred the line for one more generation. Now how can somebody say that an ibl can't be F-anything? lol

hey dude, no bad blood with you or anybody else. i'm high and i just saw now that in the signature,which i cant ignore
sorry for going a bit offtopic and good luck with the karela

Because once it's an ibl, all of it's progeny will be either more ibl's (or hybrids if a parent from a differing line is used...

Once it is an inbred line is it a stable line, and filial generation designation is irrelevant... What would you call the P1 strain and the P2 strain for an inbred line? The parents of the original cross? The original IBLs used to make the parents? What would you call the progeny of two SK#1 plants? SK#1 F2s? Nope because the SK#1 has been in for many generations during it's creation... SK#1 ibl? Isn't SK#1 an inbred line? Or, would you simply call them SK#1?

The way breeders and growers label cannabis is very misleading... alot of people are confused about what can be called what, and why... The best way to resolve the confusion and disagreement over the way things are named, imho, is to follow precedent set by the academic community... Seems like there are plenty of references where botanists' nomenclature is clearly laid out... Seems like there are also plenty of examples of regulations and criteria for hybrids and IBLs in the agricultural community to use as examples...

And... the correction I have to make to grapepunched...
"So... An 'S1' of (enter non-IBL strain here) would be a polyhybrid F2, and there is not a botanist out there who will disagree..."

Just to let everybody know, I'm making the change right now to my sig (Thanks to H3ad for the edit, semi-thanks to XyZ for pointing out the needed review but sending me a pm telling me to "check my thread dummy", and calling me "comical" among other things in the thread... ? Also, this is a thread on Kerala Krush so please note that you should have just pm'd me in the first place instead of picking this random post to place this info.

I merely posted H3ad's easy Breeding Rules to HELP others, and I too must have overlooked the fact that the strain must be an IBL in order for the rule to apply. Thanks H3ad, you are always humble and offering of knowledge WITHOUT the flaming... What would ICMag do without people like yourself...

-gp

your head is not so great as thought first hehe... but we are all bongheads so who cares

Grat3fulh3ad said:

What would you call the P1 strain and the P2 strain for an inbred line? The parents of the original cross? The original IBLs used to make the parents?

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i call them how they are called, the P1 & P2... where the number means the plant-strain and not the generation. i can also cross 3 different parents before the start of inbreeding. The actual parental-generation is not so important if they are naturally or by man inbred landrace varieties that are already homozygous for all traits (so they are called pure-breds). it's not a huge difference if their filial progeny is f55498 or a few generations more/less

Grat3fulh3ad said:

What would you call the progeny of two SK#1 plants? SK#1 F2s? Nope because the SK#1 has been in for many generations during it's creation... SK#1 ibl? Isn't SK#1 an inbred line? Or, would you simply call them SK#1?

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I have the progeny from the old skunk#1 and call them just skunk. don't have a need to call it skunk ibl, although i know it's an ibl. the ibl is for me a descriptor for the genetic stability of the selected trait(s) and imo it should not be added in a strain name (like sourD ibl. only Sam knows which filial generation is his original line and actually you are relative right - it doesn't really matter As long as the ibl is true-breeding for most traits... but not all ibl's breed true for any trait, in fact they are usually homozygous only for a few certain traits, where the breeder was concentrating on.

it's always good to know the details. the blueberry is also a proven true-breeding line in my experience and i like to know that the she is F4 ...so the seeds i have now are the F5 generation and i call them just berry (i don't plan to explore the further generations... otherwise i would rather label it blueberry-F5 and not just blueberry because of the ibl status)

Grat3fulh3ad said:

F2 x F2 = F3

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...what is happening here? is this not inbreeding?
it's not inaccurate but wrong if saying that "an ibl can't be F-anything"

this F and IBL descriptors are obviously very connected if making a new line from the hybrids because the F4 (or if lucky the F3) is usually the generation where the selected traits are expressed in a high ratio, as well as in the next generations ...so you can call it an ibl... but every from this new ibl's (made from hybrids by man) have Obviously a filial generation (for example Dj's blueberry is F4) ...so it's useless to hold on the words that an Ibl Can't be F-anything hehe... but as already said, i agree with the point that the actual generation is not more so important if the line is heavy-inbred (at least F5 or beyond)

grapepunced - i don't know why you have a tendency to modify the original posts... i was not saying check my thread but check your thread & i added a link to this thread. ~the dummy was just funny and you should not take it so personal dude

again, sorry for the oftopic & have fun w/the karela!

peace

Bottom line... I'll not believe any fillial generation less than 5 of a hybrid to be a true inbred line, and won't bother calling anything inbred an F anything...

For example... in corn breeding there is a precedent... In fact there is ALOT to be learned about genetics, inheritance and breeding by studying corn breeding projects, studies, and patents...

For Example:
"An inbred line must be a relatively true breeding strain of corn resulting from at least five successive generations of controlled self-fertilization or from back crossing to a recurrent parent with selection of its equivalent."

So... after 5 generations of incrossing or backcrossing with appropriate selection at each step, you have a strain... A strain is not an f-something, just an inbred line...

Also... your P1 and P2 statement makes a great point... the numbers after the P are DIFFERENT lines... Line1 x Line2 = F1... If you use a single line, and it is inbred, then there is only one line... Line1 x Line1 = Line1(not F2)

Yes, F2 x F2 = F3 is inbreding, but it is not yet an inbred line. You are the one who is being innaccurate and/or wrong... Of course the F and IBL descriptors are "very connected", since the Fgenerations and/or the BXgenerations are steps along the way to IBL...

You need to quit trying to adapt existing terminology to mean what you think it means... i.e. "the ibl is for me a descriptor for the genetic stability of the selected trait(s)" and find out how botanists define them... You can't take terms which already have an accepted usage in the world, and redefine them to fit your system of thought... A good place for you to start is to google 'corn hybrids' and 'corn patents'... The reason for using corn is that there is more published work about corn genetics than any other plant... Genetics is the same science across the board, so most of the concepts will apply...

what nonsense - you just agreed that a new ibl has a filial generation from the hybrids but you are trying to confuse the words "ibl" and "strain" in the corn way.

what is skunk? for us it's obviously some unknown filial generation from the original 3-way (columbian/mexican/afghani) that was bred and named by Sam and i think you agree now (again) that skunk is a true inbred line. you should because before the edit it was lookin like you sell seeds without knowing that you could create an ibl from your initial hybrids. than i would recommend that you buy a pack of Djs blueberry & i could send you some beans from my F5 - you would see that Dj created a new stable (true-breeding) line already by F4. the Blueberry aroma & colors (among others) were found in the F2 generation from the purpleThai/afghani cross and stabilized till F4. a lot of accurate work but not impossible. Also SamS skunk#1 is a well inbred strain which breeds true, i could send you some skunk beans as well lol

an example of in-breeding...

P1; UU - dominant green, xx - female
P2; dd - purple (recessive), xy - male

P1 x P2 = F1 (Ud/xx and Ud/xy) --all F1 plants are uniform, both the males and females
F1 x F1 = F2 (the first step of creating an ibl)
the F2 gives out the potentially desired recessive traits (dd -which we marked as purple
in this generation we get different males (Ud, UU, dU, dd) as well as different females (Ud, UU, dU, and dd) ...so 1/4 or 25% of the population will show purple, 12.5% female and same number of males. it's from this population where the dd (purple) males and females can be found and in-line crossed for stabilization. the result of this second in-line cross will give all purple plants in the F3 generation but not necessary the same grow-structure/aromas/leaf shape/stretch factor etc... so only one trait is for sure homozygous at this point. of course the ideal way is to look/smell/observe/select more than only one desired trait on both breeding individuals from the F2 population.... unfortunately the more recessive traits you want, the lesser % of the plants will have all what you wish to stabilize. so this can be practically very complicated. a high number of plants is needed and obviously a lot of time as well ...but it's not impossible.

we agree about the P1 ...but somebody could label all the initial strains with "P1" and adding an other simbol to each strain (for example P1a and P1b) ...it's easier (shorter) to write only P1, P2... but there is nothing wrong as long as we know what we are talkin'about. it's different with the further inbreeding though.


an other thing - it's poor to say that an ibl x ibl is just ibl... because some plants in the same population can be much different in terms od potency. Tom's deep chunk is a pure afghani line but the seeds i made now are not more Toms original DC... so if somebody ask me what dc seeds i have... my answer is not just dc, but dc "fn+2" which means 2 generations removed (more inbred) than Toms original (labeled simply as "fn")


you should g00gle the word "strain" - The term has no official status in botany;
i like the definition that "a strain is a line of ofspring derived from common ancestors", which means that any hybrids are strains as well... and this is ok because it's friendly for the regular canna folks... you can see that if you look a thread where a dude is asking which strain is the best and the answers are full of hybrids. also the strainguide here has mostly hybrids to offer.. but it's called Strainguide. so from this definition, any ibl is a strain while any strain is not necessary an ibl. don't confuse now the terms strain and ibl. first you said that and IBL can't be F-anything - that was/is obviously wrong because you agreed now that every inbred line has a Filial generation (of course. i already explained that in my previous post and this is a technical fact. i don't know why are you trying now to confuse with the corn card and actually i don't want to repeat myself again. so it's better to stop with the oftopic.. at least i will stop because for me it doesn't matter if the funny guy will still have in his signature that "an ibl can't be F-anything" by head...lol...as he says on the top, it's just breeding for dummies so who cares really

XyZ said:

what nonsense - you just agreed that a new ibl has a filial generation from the hybrids but you are trying to confuse the words "ibl" and "strain" in the corn way.

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What?? IBL = strain = cultivar... hybrid = hybrid... you're confused, it seems...

In the corn way??? LMAO... What? corn genetics is different from other plant genetics? Cannabis is different?

just what differentiates the 'corn way' from the 'regular(?) way'?

what is skunk? for us it's obviously some unknown filial generation from the original 3-way (columbian/mexican/afghani) that was bred and named by Sam and i think you agree now (again) that skunk is a true inbred line.

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I was pointing out that sk1 is an ibl... but I was doing it by asking you rhetorical questions which obviously went over your head...

you should because before the edit it was lookin like you sell seeds without knowing that you could create an ibl from your initial hybrids.

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another example of how you misunderstood my point...
Once the line is inbred... it's not an f-anything anymore, it's an inbred line...
F37 no different from F25... ALL inbred line... F-designation is a step toward an ibl, and though it is inbreeding all filial genetations are not ibl.

P1; UU - dominant green, xx - female
P2; dd - purple (recessive), xy - male

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I know all about the genetic math... no need to confuse yourself further, attempting to make yourself seem right...

we agree about the P1 .

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You should have just left it at that... the rest of your 'P' statement further illustrates your confusion... It seems that you just want to argue..
I'm not going to entertain your argumentativeness any longer, I've clearly stated the fact of the matter... if you don't agree then you don't understand...

an other thing - it's poor to say that an ibl x ibl is just ibl... because some plants in the same population can be much different in terms od potency.

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See... more sillyness... why is it poor to name something exactly what it is?What you must have meant is that breeding more IBLs form IBL stock without properly selecting your parents is poor breeding work... BUT we all know that already, and it is irrelevant to my truths... More example of how you only want to argue some point...

Tom's deep chunk is a pure afghani line but the seeds i made now are not more Toms original DC... so if somebody ask me what dc seeds i have... my answer is not just dc, but dc "fn+2" which means 2 generations removed (more inbred) than Toms original (labeled simply as "fn")

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Good answer, but calling them deep chunk would still be accurate, if you did that instead... Whether or not any selection was done, whether you or tom made the seeds, they're still deep chunk seeds if deep chunk is an ibl. More accurately than that though, they're simply Afghani from DC parents...

you should g00gle the word "strain" - The term has no official status in botany;
i like the definition that "a strain is a line of ofspring derived from common ancestors", which means that any hybrids are strains as well... and this is ok because it's friendly for the regular canna folks... you can see that if you look a thread where a dude is asking which strain is the best and the answers are full of hybrids. also the strainguide here has mostly hybrids to offer.. but it's called Strainguide. so from this definition, any ibl is a strain while any strain is not necessary an ibl. don't confuse now the terms strain and ibl. first you said that and IBL can't be F-anything - that was/is obviously wrong because you agreed now that every inbred line has a Filial generation (of course. i already explained that in my previous post and this is a technical fact. i don't know why are you trying now to confuse with the corn card and actually i don't want to repeat myself again. so it's better to stop with the oftopic.. at least i will stop because for me it doesn't matter if the funny guy will still have in his signature that "an ibl can't be F-anything" by head...lol...as he says on the top, it's just breeding for dummies so who cares really

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Woohoo... you've won a semantics argument...
I should have known, if you nit-picked at the details long enough you'd find some small something you could pass off as error...
However...
I am pretty sure that you and everyone else here know that strain is commonly used slang among cannabis growers for cultivar... but maybe you didn't...

What I should have said, is that among the agricultural and botanical communities, anything past an F5 is usually only ever referred to as an ibl, and that in an ibl that is really IBL, 'F' designations are absolutely meaningless. That the term filial generation as is commonly used in botany only refers to hybrids and never to ibl's.

See ya later dummy...

and you know what... screw you, you're wrong...
trying to make me argue around in circles over a very simple point...
An F2 can only be the progeny of two F1s...
All F1's are hybrids.
DONE.

Grat3fulh3ad said:

and you know what... screw you, you're wrong...

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Good thing I read this... now I know to never buy anything from Head seeds.

Head, I'm a bit confused by your argument, where in your opinion do IBL's come from? are they gifts from god that drop out of the sky?
You should read DJ Short's book on breeding... cuz you obviously have a lot to learn.
You might want to re-edit that post a bit more after you read up... LOL.

tempes~tos said:

Good thing I read this... now I know to never buy anything from Head seeds.

Head, I'm a bit confused by your argument, where in your opinion do IBL's come from? are they gifts from god that drop out of the sky?
You should read DJ Short's book on breeding... cuz you obviously have a lot to learn.
You might want to re-edit that post a bit more after you read up... LOL.

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Good, I don't need you to buy anything...

Your loss... someone else's gain...

Ibls are generally landraces, however... AS I ALREADY POSTED...
It is accepted in the agri community that after 5 generations of selective incrossing and backcrossing if the cultivar breeds relatively true then it is an ibl...
Maybe you should go back and read up some more...

Once again... for all of you who just don't get it...
F2s only come from crossing an F1 hybrid to itself or to a sibling.
Period.
You can argue all you want to and that will never change...

tempes~tos said:

now I know to never buy anything from Head seeds.

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Sweet..more for me...oh i can't wait for some Trainwreck BX1's and to finally get my hands on some casey jones...btw tempes~tos you should go into h3ad's forum and look at the casey jones grow shows, as well as his other projects...they do all the talking...goddamn trolls on this site are out of control, we need to come up with a sulfur burner for trolls

troll?? nah i never even heard of Head seeds before.
i just wouldnt want seeds from someone that resorts to personal attacks in a semantics argument

btw head, thanks for the +rep.

so you never heard of h3ad's seeds before, never seen pics of his strains grown by members here, and you would deprive yourself of these wonderful genetics because he said "screw you" to XyZ...that's your definition of a personal attack...lol

i've seen XyZ's grows and he's a great grower...him and h3ad were having a heated discussion and it was between them

FYI...if a 100 packs of h3ad's seeds were to go up on Seedbay right now they would be gone in less then 10 minutes and probably lock up the site...they do every time they are posted

Here's a sample of casey for ya...from joeshmoe

1. It was NOT a semantics argument, it was a facts argument.
Fact: F2s are the progeny of fertilizing (pollenating, crossing, breeding, etc) an F1 hybrid to itself or a sibling. NOT breeding an inbred line with another member of that line or itself.

2. The argument degenerated to one of semantics in an attempt to find some angle from which I might be wrong. Once I realized that I got a bit upset, uttered an unnecessary obsccenity* at the off-trac arguer, and got back to the real meat of the issue.

3. I apologize for saying screw you to the confused one, and retract that statement to replace it with "Screw your insane bullshit semantics argument, I'm sticking to simple fact."


*Your definition of obscenity may vary :wink:

ThirdEye said:

so you never heard of h3ad's seeds before, never seen pics of his strains grown by members here, and you would deprive yourself of these wonderful genetics because he said "screw you" to XyZ...that's your definition of a personal attack...lol

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lol.. it really isnt a big deal, the man (?) already said he doesnt care... i have heard of Casey jones... sounds great, looks great, i dont doubt that it is great, but i have a large stash of seads as it is and dont need any more for a long time.. but when i do.. there are lots of choices out there..
enjoy those nugs.. peace

"if you don't agree then you don't understand" what a great head - in fact, head~less

i understand you but this doesn't mean that i have to agree... do you understand me? not really
...now please read again my whole post and stop pumpin' more oftopic here in this karela thread

peace folks & enjoy the weekend

I completely understand you, and you're still wrong... disagree or not... still wrong...

F2s can ONLY be the progeny of crossing an F1 to itself or a sibling.
Do you disagree?

and

F1 only ever refers to hybrids.
Do you disagree?

Perhaps in the other thread where I was simplifying things, I should have said something more along the lines of "In the non-cannabis world of plant breeding science, The F designation is usually not used past F5, and never to refer to the progeny of an inbred line as F-anything. So only the unlearned refer to progeny as (insert ibl)F2s.", But, I didn't know anyone would be looking for nits to pick...

tempes~tos said:

Good thing I read this... now I know to never buy anything from Head seeds.

... LOL.

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By the looks of yer posts and gallery,you never have bought any seeds anyway,so no biggie.Just grow some bud.

Posts have been split from the original thread, as off topic, carry on your discussion in this split thread.

dg