value of male hermaphrodites in breeding

I am referring to male plants which produce female flowers. Supposedly the polen from such hermies is actually valuable in that when a regular female plant is pollinated the resulting offspring have a much higher female/male ratio. This is similar to the process used to create female or feminised seeds. In this case a female plant is stressed or treated with giberrilic acid to become a hermaphrodite.

In the example I am talking about, male plants which show female flowers are used as the polen source instead of treated female plants.

My question:
Is the use of such hermaphrodites in breeding beneficial as a means of producing a higher ratio of females? Or is the hemaphroditic trait more dominant in the resulting offspring making this practice detrimental?

good question and one I have hoped to have answered already lol
Someone know the factual answer?
Peace

so yea, how about those males eh? (bump)

- ezra - said:

Is the use of such hermaphrodites in breeding beneficial as a means of producing a higher ratio of females? Or is the hemaphroditic trait more dominant in the resulting offspring making this practice detrimental?

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This is an 'abnormal flower' , rather than a hermaphrodite in the purest sense >>


Chitral [Nirvana B.V.]


Note: The ratio of male:female seed in progeny is reflective of many things including: tempreature, the age of stigma, style and antha,,, and the age of the pollen itself*

*some research suggests that a higher ratio of males is displayed when the pollen used is more than several hours old

as Gypsy suggests,,, very little is known about male plants!

hope this helps

peace dLeaf

Hi ezra i have used a hermie male in some x's just recently so soon we will see some results...funnily enought Delta-9 is gonna try some of these out for me nd so is someone else so it will be interesting to see the results i also have aload of selfed seeds from the male plant so those offspring will also be an interesting grow..i cant give you any more info than that apart from iv read that DJ short likes to use males that hermie for breeding But Reeferman told me not to use it because it shows instability in the hybrid..but we will see itl all be documented here..



peace

Dr. D said:

it will be interesting to see the results

Click to expand...

Snap

Ours wasn't quite as abnormal as that... lol

think it depends if female sepals form on an otherwise male flower, rather than both sexes being displayed from the off

as the Dr says we learn as we grow on this one :wink:
please keep everyone posted with results all
nice thread
dL

A male hermie has the same value as a female hermie.If your breeding for hermies by all means use it.

nobody should breed for hermies - period .

just test your male if its non AF (autoflowering) , during a long period of time (26 weeks should be good,the more the better ) beside you can clone them and cull unwanted phenotypes and let the remainers go to sexual maturity before making serious batches ...
Fj

im with Dr .D , what he ( reef ) said is right IMO , as i crossed in former times a chronic to a hermie DutchDragon ( to produce femmed seeds ! )
.the offspring hermied heavy and some fems were ok ...
this is y i am very against hermie males in breeding , when you want to work with this longer than a single x ...
have fun guys
fj

thanks for the replies guys. seems to be fair bit of disagreement on this one. Its interesting that DJ shorts likes to use them and his strains are known to have very low hermie rates. The Thai he used in his original cross was very hermaphroditic too and he has successfully bred out this trait while using hermie pollen. Not sure...

DJ uses seed bearing males which are much less common than males that produce sterile calyxes. I'm thinking males that produce sterile calyxes posess the same gene for intersexed traits as a female dom hermaphrodite. The seed bearing males do seem to produce male dominant hermaphrodites in their offspring also but it seems to no effect the mostly female plants.

zamalito said:

DJ uses seed bearing males which are much less common than males that produce sterile calyxes. I'm thinking males that produce sterile calyxes posess the same gene for intersexed traits as a female dom hermaphrodite. The seed bearing males do seem to produce male dominant hermaphrodites in their offspring also but it seems to no effect the mostly female plants.

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that is very interesting and makes a lot of sense. good post Zam.

"A male hermie has the same value as a female hermie.If your breeding for hermies by all means use it." - daytripper

"nobody should breed for hermies - period . " - fjällhöga

>>>> I agree, if a person uses hermies then they are breeding for hermies. In other words " no one should use hermies for breeding ".

"thanks for the replies guys. seems to be fair bit of disagreement on this one. Its interesting that DJ shorts likes to use them and his strains are known to have very low hermie rates. The Thai he used in his original cross was very hermaphroditic too and he has successfully bred out this trait while using hermie pollen. Not sure..." - ezra -

>>>>>The reason why DJ can use a herm in a breeding venture is because he knows their are ways to "hide" and even remove the herm genes by selecting the right mates to the herms. Herms can be hid / camoflauged in 1 generation but it takes more to eliminate them.

Breeding out female herm tendencies requires male plants that are classified as type 1 males. For more info read "Advances in Hemp Research ". Probably cost $90 - 100, bought is so long ago I don't remember. I would post that info but" know it alls" told me I was " out there" or even making up things , so I deleted those posts, deleting knowledge. Sorry Ezera but I can assure you if I posted all I know on this subject I would be argueing with 6th grade graduates.

"DJ uses seed bearing males which are much less common than males that produce sterile calyxes. I'm thinking males that produce sterile calyxes posess the same gene for intersexed traits as a female dom hermaphrodite. The seed bearing males do seem to produce male dominant hermaphrodites in their offspring also but it seems to no effect the mostly female plants." - zamalito

>>>>>Zamalito its more than 1 gene and these " genes " are connected to various hormone production. I could tell you all exactly but..... I posted that 1 time and deleted it out of anger at the whole community for refusing to learn.
You know the kind of guys that tell you " modify you carburetor and you can run your car/ internal combustion enigine on water" but they do not understand water won't burn.

The sterility of males that produce a few pistills is rarely genetic but instead a miscarriage/ abortion caused by the dying male releasing ethylene, a plant hormone that is produced in great quanity in dying plants , cut flowers and fruit that has been picked.
Chemical sprays that abort fruit via ethylene are the oldest greenhouse chemicals in use today. They can do many things in the hands of some one who knows how to use them. They may also be used to produce seeds crops that are mostly male among other uses.

Using these has plenty of effect as they carry the code for increased ethylene production, suppressing the female herm genes in the following generation. You won't know this plant carried herm genes because the increased ethylene production suppressed herms.

You sure as hell will know when you grow out those seeds that plant produced, or who ever buys them.

Ok if you are only after money or " you make and sell seeds for production only" in other words you do not intend that your seeds be used for breeding.

Does DJ make seeds to be grown for production or breeding stock? Don't answer, retorical question.

I'd love to tell more but spoon feeding is for babys, if you want to grow pick up your spoon and feed yourself.

Don't take my post personal, I have no people skills.



Later babes.

That would make sense if dj used sterile males, however he said he uses seed bearing males. I think you interpreted it backwards daytripper. In my experience males that produce seed seem much less frequent.

Besides I understand that most breeders use tactics like you'd described. However, I don't see why djshort would write articles explaining to others how he takes a harmful shortcut and encourage others to use the same.

Daytripper said:

Does DJ make seeds to be grown for production or breeding stock? Don't answer, retorical question.

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actually DJ does produce seeds for further breeding use as well as production. He continues to breed with the same lines over many generations, so I dont think your argument makes sense in this respect.

interesting post though. You obviously have some amount of theoretical knowledge on breeding.

peace.

zamalito said:

In my experience males that produce seed seem much less frequent.

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Indeed. They are most rare Zam

Daytripper if u have some knowledge to share,,, then please draw forth light from shadow... perhaps you can tell us why Soma also uses hermaphrodiphic plants in his seedlines?

Remember, answers make questions interesting :wink:

peace out

DocLeaf said:

Remember, answers make questions interesting :wink:

Click to expand...

I like that

So daytripper I'm curious as to what research you know of that would explain why seed bearing males prevent intersexed traits in future generations

Ok. first off, we don't grow hermaphrodites! lets make that clear.
sometimes we grow males,,, if we want to make some seeds

In over 15 years we only ever seen a male plant flower to 30 days as a male, then produce a few female sepals, twice. Once with a Kenyan landrace that produced x2 seeds from x2 sepals, and once again with this plant (culled prior to self-fertilization and seed).



Now. some of yo'll don't know me,,, but if anyone wants to try spoon-feedin us,,, please go ahead,,, we'll eat the spoon :wink:

Please enlighten us,,, abnormal flower,,, gives pollen,,, and then makes progeny with several female plants,,, what's the score ???

peace all dLeaf