War
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Zachary J Foster - Academia.edu
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EastCoastGambit
Well-known member
I wasn't talking about Israel, I can view both sides as flawed when get away from the "occupier vs occupied" lens from which you perceive this whole conflict. A bit of a "whataboutism" response.
Yes that is human nature I suppose. Although many other oppressed groups from colonial history did back down and they have somewhat free and independent countries now.
So you think building a concrete underground tunnel network doesn't cost money? How much money earmarked for humanitarian aid has been provided to Gaza over the last 20 years? And what has been built/done with it to support the civilian population? "According to an Axios report, in June 2021, Yahya Sinwar, Hamas’s political leader in Gaza, rejected a UN proposal to finance the enclave’s reconstruction using a new monitoring mechanism to prevent terrorist activity. It cited the contention of Western diplomats that Sinwar turned down the proposal because he would be unable to use the cash as he saw fit." https://www.firstpost.com/explainer...s-hamas-how-does-it-get-weapons-13238912.html
Are they a scapegoat, Israels puppet, or freedom fighters? My point is they also terrorize and manipulate their own population. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-60173481
Those actions being the Oct 7 terror attack, which has consequences, as well as other attacks.
I thought the Jews purchased large swaths of land at one time? Thought questionable who had real ownership/domain of said lands, it was kind of a wild west.
Jewish land purchase in Palestine - Wikipedia
Did you purchase my house and I refused to leave? Did we engage in conflict and you won that conflict? Israel was granted statehood and the Arab nations rebelled against them and lost, a few times. While unfair typically the victor of conflict gets to draw the new boundaries. I think that is part of the context people want to ignore. Basically the whole Western World did the same, so why not the Jews?
I'm not sure the details on that, yet I have heard that Israel basically took the better land. That said, it seems like lots of nations have developed pretty nice countries/cities in the desert. My point was, that potential existence, is potentially still way better than the one they have now.
Opinion | The real killer of the two-state solution? The Palestinian right of return
The two-state solution was never killed -- not by Israel or the U.S. -- because in the Palestinian vision, it was never conceived.
forward.com
How Palestine rejected offer to have its own state 5 times in the past - Law and Society Magazine.
If Israel just allowed the Palestinians to have a state of their own, there would be peace in the Middle East, right?That’s what you hear from ambassadors, European diplomats, and most college professors. But what if I told you that Israel has already offered the Palestinians a state of their...
lawandsocietymagazine.com
That is an assumption, even if it was Israel or some zioninsts' vision, the world is watching. Also if there were (two) states there would be (two) ethnostates, not one? Perhaps that is better than trying to force two ideologically opposed groups to live as one. Asides from a few other indigenous groups those calling for the complete destruction of Jews and Israel also aspire for a kind of ethnostate, do they not?
Its not going to dissolve. I wonder if it could evolve? This is a good article in reference. By the way I wouldn't call those kids terrorists but many have proven themselves to be more emotionally driven than intellectually versed on the complexity of the issues at hand.
Is Israel a "settler-colonial" state? The debate, explained.
The historical discussion at the heart of Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
www.vox.com
Yes - I imagine for the ordinary Palestinian they have Israel on one side and Hamas on the other. I would feel pretty desperate in that situation. And despite the long and unfair history, escalating the conflict is not of any benefit to the common person. Unless they really believe they can one day defeat Israel (unlikely) The only way out would be diplomacy, international intervention, and improved governments in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank.
So Hai
Well-known member
Again a reminder this saying of yours does not rhyme with reality,
“It is our duty to force all mankind to accept the seven Noahide laws, and if not—they will be killed.”
- Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, Ma’ariv, October 6, 2004
moose eater
Well-known member
If I have your car, is it not justified for me to expect it back?I wasn't talking about Israel, I can view both sides as flawed when get away from the "occupier vs occupied" lens from which you perceive this whole conflict. A bit of a "whataboutism" response.
Yes that is human nature I suppose. Although many other oppressed groups from colonial history did back down and they have somewhat free and independent countries now.
So you think building a concrete underground tunnel network doesn't cost money? How much money earmarked for humanitarian aid has been provided to Gaza over the last 20 years? And what has been built/done with it to support the civilian population? "According to an Axios report, in June 2021, Yahya Sinwar, Hamas’s political leader in Gaza, rejected a UN proposal to finance the enclave’s reconstruction using a new monitoring mechanism to prevent terrorist activity. It cited the contention of Western diplomats that Sinwar turned down the proposal because he would be unable to use the cash as he saw fit." https://www.firstpost.com/explainer...s-hamas-how-does-it-get-weapons-13238912.html
Are they a scapegoat, Israels puppet, or freedom fighters? My point is they also terrorize and manipulate their own population. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-60173481
Those actions being the Oct 7 terror attack, which has consequences, as well as other attacks.
I thought the Jews purchased large swaths of land at one time? Thought questionable who had real ownership/domain of said lands, it was kind of a wild west.
Jewish land purchase in Palestine - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Did you purchase my house and I refused to leave? Did we engage in conflict and you won that conflict? Israel was granted statehood and the Arab nations rebelled against them and lost, a few times. While unfair typically the victor of conflict gets to draw the new boundaries. I think that is part of the context people want to ignore. Basically the whole Western World did the same, so why not the Jews?
I'm not sure the details on that, yet I have heard that Israel basically took the better land. That said, it seems like lots of nations have developed pretty nice countries/cities in the desert. My point was, that potential existence, is potentially still way better than the one they have now.
Opinion | The real killer of the two-state solution? The Palestinian right of return
The two-state solution was never killed -- not by Israel or the U.S. -- because in the Palestinian vision, it was never conceived.
How Palestine rejected offer to have its own state 5 times in the past - Law and Society Magazine.
If Israel just allowed the Palestinians to have a state of their own, there would be peace in the Middle East, right?That’s what you hear from ambassadors, European diplomats, and most college professors. But what if I told you that Israel has already offered the Palestinians a state of their...
That is an assumption, even if it was Israel or some zioninsts' vision, the world is watching. Also if there were (two) states there would be (two) ethnostates, not one? Perhaps that is better than trying to force two ideologically opposed groups to live as one. Asides from a few other indigenous groups those calling for the complete destruction of Jews and Israel also aspire for a kind of ethnostate, do they not?
Its not going to dissolve. I wonder if it could evolve? This is a good article in reference. By the way I wouldn't call those kids terrorists but many have proven themselves to be more emotionally driven than intellectually versed on the complexity of the issues at hand.
Is Israel a "settler-colonial" state? The debate, explained.
The historical discussion at the heart of Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Yes - I imagine for the ordinary Palestinian they have Israel on one side and Hamas on the other. I would feel pretty desperate in that situation. And despite the long and unfair history, escalating the conflict is not of any benefit to the common person. Unless they really believe they can one day defeat Israel (unlikely) The only way out would be diplomacy, international intervention, and improved governments in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank.
And the fact is that one side IS an illegal occupier, and one side IS occupied. These things matter immensely. They are international crimes.
Pretty sure it was Russia that killed it
EastCoastGambit
Well-known member
I recognize fully the wrongs of Israel, I just don't see wiping them off the map as a viable solution. They should be held accountable and that will need to be an international effort. Since the West is not going to step up what is the best way to secure the best outcome for Palestine.
So Hai
Well-known member
The collective west has been exposed, as it is, as that empire of lies that Putin was telling everyone about. They are getting hammered and sickled in Ukraine, that country is done.
Meanwhile Russia is upgrading its government, its armed forces and its military industrial complex. And its relations with China.
moose eater
Well-known member
When 97% of a nation believes that their last 76 years of war crimes are acceptable and even desirable, what exactly is to be salvaged? (*And I would ask this somewhat rhetorical question for ANY country, including the USA).
Bugs is what I see when a population is that bent on these sorts of situations.
Yes, indoctrination and being sheltered from the reality of their own history is at play, but to willfully not see what it is they're doing... is inexcusable. A sociopath can say, "Oh, I didn't know/realize." But when the evidence is staring them in their face for that period of time and they have chosen at some level to ignore it or explain it away, it's a pretty lame excuse, and one which few courts I know of would entertain as a credible defense.
This is plain old fashioned ethnocentric opportunism, wholesale belittling and dehumanizing of those they abuse, and greed... plain and simple, partly born of delusions about religious misinterpretations and fairy tales.
As far as the differences in extremes, again, under the law, Palestine/Gaza has a legal right to defend themselves and lash out against Israel forcefully... the occupiers are long-time serial criminals at this point.
Israel, as an occupying entity, is a criminal in their actions in Gaza to begin with... straight out of the gate. Consider it an international likeness to some aspects of 'castle doctrine.'
If someone breaks into my home where I live, and I shoot them, there's not much real serious assessment of legality in that moment of self-defense where the authorities are involved. The intruder, on the other hand, has a much greater burden of proof to show that my actions were excessive or unreasonable. And in Israel's case, shy of the ignorance among our indoctrinated societies, Israel and the US, as well as Germany now, there's very little they can show to claim their actions were either reasonable or necessary.
And the US (and some other nations) has helped Tel Aviv to turn this reality up-side-down.
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moose eater
Well-known member
The best outcome for Palestine is for Israel to be made/forced to cease and desist and relinquish stolen land, etc., and pay restitution for their 3/4 of a century of murders, rapes, torture, indefinite detentions without cause, and more, and the best way for western powers to be forced to recognize their complicity in Israel's criminal behaviors and act accordingly, and the most efficient means by which to bring about that 'behavior modification' is to hit them where sociopaths feel any pain at all; their wallets.
I'm down with that, and a slowly growing number of universities are as well.
Education of the indoctrinated and sheltered masses is a part of that spearhead, because I think that if most peolpe could 'put the shoe on the other foot' with knowledge of what that history really consists of, there'd be a greater groundswell of support for this action than there already is.
moose eater
Well-known member
Fundamentalists within a faith that do not inherently represent all within that faith. Any more than the strict, hellfire and brimstone Southern Baptists represent all Christians or the Taliban represent all Muslims.
moose eater
Well-known member
moose eater
Well-known member
Spain denied port of call to ship carrying arms to Israel
Spain has refused permission for an Israel-bound ship carrying arms to call at the southeastern port of Cartag
www.jpost.com
Seems that more and more people are tiring of Bibi's and Biden's serial mass murdering bullshit.
'Bout time. Let the list grow.
