Young plants have problems... Need diagnosis.

[OmniscientOnus]

The last few days I've been noticing some drooping and yellowing on the leaves of two of my plants and I'm not sure what it is...

All the information I know is in my grow journal, including pictures.

Any ideas? Solutions?

Please help. If there's any information that you may need that isn't in the journal, please feel free to ask and I'll do my best to try and answer it.

 

[TEERCSIdbREEDER]

dont water as much

 

[OmniscientOnus]

I appreciate the advice, but what's the reasoning behind it? I had a problem with the first grow where I tried to be too hands on with my grow, instead of just letting them do their thing, one of those things was over watering. I tried to avoid that this time, and I thought I did. I've only watered 4 times in the 17 days they've been around... is that really too much?

I'm not trying to question your advice, I would just be more comfortable with an explanation.

 

[barnyard]

I'd agree that it may be overwatering

 

[OmniscientOnus]

What exactly is that? and how can it be remedied?

 

[barnyard]

oops, the leaf spot diagnosis was for the mackattack thread. Sorry for the confusion.

for you omni, I'm not seeing any burning of the leaves and the leaves are not curling so i don't think its over fertilization.

yellowing of the leaves from the bottom up can indicate over-watering

why the heck does everyone use drinking cups? obviously you've punched some holes in the bottom for drainage, right?

be sure to let your soil dry out on the top between waterings

 

[OmniscientOnus]

Yes, there are plenty of drainage holes in the bottom, and water always runs through the cups and out the bottom at a very smooth, and fairly quick, manner.

The first time I grew, I was told that starting in smaller pots is better for your root system, and makes watering easier. At first this didn't make sense to me as plants are grown in massive quantities of soil outside. However, just today I read a post that made a lot of sense. It said that when plants receive water outdoors, there is a lot of soil for that water to go through, and it can travel to incredible depths, thus keeping the moisture of the soil fairly even and allowing it to dry much quicker than when in a pot. In a pot, however, drainage and dispersal is not as efficient, and therefore you increase the chances that your plant will be soaked for too long. Finally, the excess moisture can cause mold to start growing.

I don't know if any of that is true, but it made sense to me.

As for the use of plastic drinking cups... I'd imagine it's because of what we've heard that I just mentioned above, and they are cheap, readily available, and don't raise any eyebrows at the store (while no one has ever said anything to me before, I get some strange looks being a 23 year old male, wearing t-shirts that promote metal music, buying what would appear to be materials to grow some tomatoes in my garden and a large quantity, variety, and high wattage light bulbs. It's sort of the equivalent of buying a bottle of wine, some condoms and sleeping pills. Everyone knows what you're doing, but they don't say anything because there's always the possibility that you you and your girlfriend are planning a long night, and you always have trouble getting to sleep after...).

 

[Alienate420]

I say just buy the black plastic pots in 3 gallon size from now on. Probably less than 50 cents each at your local hydro store or wherever and I'm sure if that's all you bought, nobody would blink.

 

[OmniscientOnus]

Is there a problem with the plastic cups? I just happen to have 60 or so laying around, and I never use them for anything else.

It's not that I mind buying a different container (next time), I'm just wondering if it's necessary. I've seen plenty of grows that started in plastic cups and ended up just fine. Also, I don't really care about people looking at me funny in stores, they can't do anything about suspicion, especially since I buy it all with cash; not to mention the fact that the other accessories pretty much give away what I'm doing. It's just happens to be another added benefit.

 

[OmniscientOnus]

Alright, the general consensus is that I'm over watering. So, I cut WAY back, and I still don't see any improvements. Is it possible there is another cause?

I've heard that over watering and under watering have some of the same symptoms. Is it possible that I'm under watering? The soil is dry all the way through the soil before I water again. It just seems like they should be watered more than that.

Does anyone have any ideas on how I can save my babies? I really don't want to lose another grow.

All my new pics and information can be found in my journal (see the link in my signature, grow #2)

 

[Hydro-Soil]

You're thinking of "Overwatering" as being "Watering too frequently" when in reality, you're adding too much water for the soil you're using. Either add perlite/vermiculite to allow the soil to hold more air (and less water) or don't completely saturate the soil. Your plants are trying to force their roots through a damp soggy mess and they don't do that well.

You'll get it. Stay Safe!

 

[lysol]

Hydro soil has the right advice, I also saw Maj. Pothead told you about the method I use when growing in soil, the lift method... in this post. http://icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2602926&postcount=10

When I look at your pics the soil looks dark & wet in every one. Your perlite is turning red that is the start of algea / mold, which will not hurt your seedlings directly but is indicative the top of the soil isn't drying sufficiently let alone the bottom.

Let me tell you the best remedy at the current time is to transplant and then not water it in for a while, let the new soil leech out that moisture, make good drainage in your new pot

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

"6 parts Peat
3 parts Perlite
3 parts Compost/Manure
1 teaspoon Dolomite Lime (per Gallon)"

I would have trouble watering that mix. If you gave me those plants, I'd have to repot them. Plus, that's not enough lime for any mix, much less that one.
Peat is a non nutritive organic. It is very acid and absorbs lots of water and contributes a lot to soil collapse. With the compost/manure in there, the collapse of the peat will come fast unless roots fill the area. That mix holds too much water for those big containers and small plants.

All that perlite, but no sand or gravel. Perlite is good for drainage, but in large quantities it holds air and prevents positive suction from downward moving water. Cannabis loves coarse, sharp sand on it's roots. It tolerates perlite, but it loves sand.

I don't think one teaspoon of dolomite per gallon is enough. One tablespoon should be a minimum. I use my hand, so I'm sure I get more sometimes. I recycle my soilmix. I usually add a very small amount of peat back to each new mix to help hold water. I mostly use the chopped bark products like 'N-Rich' to compensate for the absorbed organic matter. I'm sure you know peat is not a renewable resource. Besides, the coir is better in every way.

 

[OmniscientOnus]

When I water, I only do so until runout STARTS to appear. I also use the "lift" technique to determine when to water.

I took a couple of pictures to show a comparison of what the soil looks like without ever being watered, and what it looks like in the cups because I can't see the difference. This ended up being really lucky as my camera showed me something I never noticed before... mold. In person the mold is very light and is almost impossible to notice unless you know it's there, with my high res camera however, it's as plain as day.

I'm going to transplant them today in hopes that that helps. Also, I took a picture of all the drainage holes just to show you guys what I'm working with.

Also, I find it worth mentioning that people often tell me that I come off the wrong way when I speak. When I question what people tell me, it's because I'm curious or confused. I'm not looking to argue, especially about something I know so little about. I just want to understand. So, I'm sorry if I come off as abrasive or argumentative. I just want to learn!

Thanks for all the help everyone! Hopefully together we can get these girls to bud!

The first picture is of my soil that is ready for transplant, and has not ever been watered. The second picture is of the soil in one of the cups that has been watered. Other than the perilite turning a reddish, rust like color, I can't see a difference. How can you guys tell?

 

[Hydro-Soil]

When I water, I only do so until runout STARTS to appear. I also use the "lift" technique to determine when to water.

For the size of your plants and the poor draining ability of the soil you're using..... that's too much water. Again, try to visualize stuffing the leaves of the plant into a cup. Fill the cup with water/nutes to that point and pour it around the base of the stem. You shouldn't be getting any runoff at all, at this point.

Definitely amend your soil before the transplant, your gals will truly thank you with great new growth.

 

[noreaga]

definitely transplant to better draining pots or add excess perlite to the soil. help get some airflow in there

 

[dillhole]

Looks like you're being steered in the right direction already, but i'll give you my 2 cents anyway

First, your drain holes are way too small. I drill 1/4" holes for pots that size. I also place several on the sides too. Adding lots of perlite is a great idea too.

Second, a peat based medium has a natural pH around 5. That's why a lot of lime is required to neutralize it. Your plants show the classic signs of a pH induced nitrogen lockout, as well as overwatering. I would check the runoff pH immediately. If your soil pH is low like I suspect, you need to get some pH up. If you're going to use a peat based soil you must have a method of raising the pH.

DH

 

[copperheadrd]

sounds like your getting some good advice ,transplant them babies,replace the peat with20% vermucilte,30% perlite,50%potting mix. dont add nutes they dont need it,keep it simple.also when you over water root damage occurs, recovery will take some time.hope this helps good luck

 

[OmniscientOnus]

I transplanted my girls in a last ditch effort, and the results were amazing! All the dying leaves have fallen off, and all of the new foliage is a nice healthy green.

It turns out that the drainage holes in my cups were to blame. As was suggested by a few of you, the holes were too small and were not draining properly.

I'm still a little confused about it all though. After watering my plants, runout always appeared fast and thorough as though lots of water was draining from them. I believe that the soil was helping to break the water's surface tension which allowed it to drain better with soil then without.

After transplanting I figured I would test the theory that I wasn't getting proper drainage, so I poured water into the empty cup. I could have walked around drinking from it it held water so well! I don't know for sure why it seemed to drain fine with the soil in it, but either way, now I know to make the stupid things bigger next time. What a frustrating week for such a simple problem.

Anyways, a big "Thank You" to everyone who replied and tried to help me solve my problems.


EDIT: I appreciate the advice on changing the soil, but I got this recipe from someone who is VERY successful in their grows. This, albeit, was an early one that they no longer use, but was by far the simplest to find the necessary components for. For the next grow I will consider a better, more complex, mixture, but for the moment, I just want to be able to say that I can grow a plant from seed to harvest. Once I can prove to myself that I can do that, I'm going to hopefully move up to bigger and better strains. These first few grows are just a learning tool, and if I only end up with a gram of crappy bud at the end, I'm ok with that. Future grows will be more concerned with quality and quantity (in that order), but for now, a harvested plant will make me a happy grower!

Moderator(s): This thread has served it's purpose. Feel free to close it, or archive it, or whatever it is you do with finished threads. (And keep up the good work!)