Sip grown
More Cowbell - Bodhi seeds
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You Gotta SIP, Not Slurp
- Thread starter thailer
- Start date
eyesdownchronic
Active member
thats a good end goal.
thailer
Well-known member
so i checked out the link to the moisture meter that you can check from outside the grow room and looked at the measurements of the probe part that goes down in the soil and i am assuming senses the moisture and it is less than three inches long, more like 2" long, so i would keep that in mind. blumat has a moisture meter that works by measuring water potential, goes much further down in the soil but it doesn't work with an app or anything to let you know outside the room. so if you have a shallow pot like you're describing, it may work ok but for people who have more depth to their containers, three inches dry soil on top could still be enough water and a blumat meter may work better.
i am not too certain if your idea for the SIP will work or not just because it is hard for me to envision what you're describing. i wish i could give you some better advice.
I have one of the blurays coming, 9".
This will work I believe. When the bulkhead fittings show up I will put everything together and get it running. I will only have a 1.5" layer of media in the bottom of my totes, wet via a 1/2" line going to the bottom of the tote, from under the grill. The water level in my center control box will be controlled by an 1" overflow outlet while pumping in water from the reservoir. I can throttle the inlet through a 1/2" line and a slow pump. Ideally very little would overflow from the center bucket. More complicated than a gravity fed line from the reservoir to a float valve, but a timer can be incorporated this way, and I have the stuff already from the top water design.
This will work I believe. When the bulkhead fittings show up I will put everything together and get it running. I will only have a 1.5" layer of media in the bottom of my totes, wet via a 1/2" line going to the bottom of the tote, from under the grill. The water level in my center control box will be controlled by an 1" overflow outlet while pumping in water from the reservoir. I can throttle the inlet through a 1/2" line and a slow pump. Ideally very little would overflow from the center bucket. More complicated than a gravity fed line from the reservoir to a float valve, but a timer can be incorporated this way, and I have the stuff already from the top water design.
Thanks for the tek and ideas everybody. I was just talking with the Buildasoil guy about my soil not getting hot yet, and he is also rockin a SIP. 
Thailer, I got a couple questions. What size of pots were you in before the switch. Also how do you think 55 gallon tough totes would work? I would want to connect them all and you said you you should only connect 6 of the 27 gallon totes so I imagine you would only want to connect about 4 of the 55 gallon totes?
thailer
Well-known member
before i was using 20 and 15 gallon fabric pots. the sips ended up holding only 15 gallons of soil when i added 1.5 bags of potting soil. i thought it would be more soil but the reservoir in the bottom i guess took more room than i imagined.
i mean i think they would work fine. the 70 gallon tote is only 4" taller than the 55 gallon and both have good depth. there just isn't as much depth after the reservoir is put in for the 27 gallon tote for stakes and it just seems to be wetter with the SIPS on the irrigation line compared to hand watered sips which can dry out daily when they get going in flower. i am hoping to make the irrigation design work better but i am not saying it sucks either. lol so far the 70 gallons have been set up and have water in the reservoir with a fan turned on in a dark cold room and the soil is looking ideal. the 55 gallons would sure be a hell of a lot cheaper than the 70 gallons.
that is a really good question about how many sips on the line if the sips are larger than 27 gallons! i didn't even think of it like that and the people who told me about their systems that they're using were using 10 gallon containers. maybe there is more wiggle room on how many you can add to a line if they're saying only a total of 60 gallons?? i had 5 at one point but i typically used 3-4 at a time. that is a really good question. what do you all think who are reading along?? the speed the water flows out of the control bucket is determined by the float valve and mine is really just a dribble. it would take quite a long while for the whole system to fill up on it's own when i would test it out hooking up new ideas and such. so i am not sure why i keep hearing to only put so many on a line? seems like it really depends on the weather if it's hot or not or how big the plant is so maybe when coupled with hot summer temps and lots of big plants, the system can't keep up with it all? it would be easy to test out tho because you could run it till it had a problem on the end of the line and if there was an issue, you could take some sips off the main line and add a second control bucket that feeds off the reservoir to control the second new line of sips. i think that would be pretty easy and cheap to fix if there was an issue unlike the testing out containers, which i really have spent quite a bit on recently spending $160 on the four 70 gallon totes. i can't even pick them up and move using the wheels that are on the tote and they're not as "tough" as the others in that same product line.
i am rambling and stoned. i hope i am making sense.
Welcome to ICmag!!It seems like a great system. I've seen Jeremy from build a soil use those earthboxes with pretty good results but I was worried about container size. Making your own sips solves that problem and the way that you made them self watering is really nice. I would be interested in seeing some em1 or gro Kashi teas introduced to the system. I know there's been talk of that on this thread. The space I'm thinking of using these is a friends house and this will be his first time growing so taking the watering variable out of the equation will be a good thing. I was thinking about using blumats but his space isn't really ideal for them.
Another thing that's interesting about sips and the use of em1/probiotics is the alleged ability to help bring back stock with viruses/pm problems. Kevin Jodrey from wonderland nursery claims to use earthboxes to bring back old/unhealthy mother stock. I say alleged/claims because I haven't seen it first hand and haven't seen any solid documentation about it. Kevin seems like a cool guy and has always been generous with sharing knowledge. Here's a link to a video with him and a couple others talking about the subject. https://youtu.be/xpopShfmyrY
I kinda made a joke with the Buildasoil guy about going to the drugstore and tossing a handful of pro-biotics in the soil, since it wasn't heating. He wants only their bacteria in there, to keep the bugs from fighting. Shit, I'm using pond water to wet the soil, probably full of bugs.
Speaking of wetting, there is confusion in my head. The soil guys say to wet it until a few drops are present when you squeeze a handful. I have mine just a tad dryer than that, as it is still absorbing the water. It does have a nice spongy feel and sound. The 9" Blumat reads 17, which is supposed to be soggy. Edit: It is reading 60-80 now in various spots, which is where it should be. Must have needed some time to wake up the sensor.
Speaking of wetting, there is confusion in my head. The soil guys say to wet it until a few drops are present when you squeeze a handful. I have mine just a tad dryer than that, as it is still absorbing the water. It does have a nice spongy feel and sound. The 9" Blumat reads 17, which is supposed to be soggy. Edit: It is reading 60-80 now in various spots, which is where it should be. Must have needed some time to wake up the sensor.
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thailer
Well-known member
that is some pretty bold claims kevin makes but am interested in hearing them. i am not so sure about viruses at least but for PM i think that involves a lot of factors so if it solves PM for one person it may not for another but that is just my opinion. i think it has to do with soil structure having enough air, transpiration and environment of the grow room all being at an optimal place for PM to stay at bay.
i think if you are setting up a spot for a new grower, making a system like this will help them focus on all the other stuff while they're learning and maybe when they're feeling more confident they can ditch sips but i bet they'll like them. i sure do.
i think if you are setting up a spot for a new grower, making a system like this will help them focus on all the other stuff while they're learning and maybe when they're feeling more confident they can ditch sips but i bet they'll like them. i sure do.
thailer
Well-known member
here's a video of Tad from KIS soil showing how to check moisture level using the squeeze method. i think the clump should break apart a little easier myself but it is a good example.
https://youtu.be/EX0XJERV5K8
let me know if the video doesn't work and i can fix the privacy setting but it should be good to view.
thailer
Well-known member
also remembered that on the first page of the thread i shared a blog article that talks about a lot of this info and i thought i would share the links again for those who may have glanced over or forgot it was there because it has info on PM and root rot related diseases and how your soil makes that happen. also thought i'd mention the term "perched water table" which i recently stumbled across looking for info on adding gravel to the bottoms of container for drainage info for a friend. that really ties in to what i was saying about the depth of SIPs determining the wetness of the soil.
What makes a good container soil mix
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/pos...?postnum=29331
water and air porosity
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/pos...?postnum=29390
how much air and water
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/pos...?postnum=29450
effects on root diseases like rot
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/pos...?postnum=29510
effects of soil settling, salt and drought on root rot
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/pos...?postnum=29579
when to irrigate/how to determine when to water and how much
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/pos...?postnum=29674
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/pos...?postnum=29691
cation exchange capacity
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/pos...?postnum=29697
What makes a good container soil mix
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/pos...?postnum=29331
water and air porosity
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/pos...?postnum=29390
how much air and water
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/pos...?postnum=29450
effects on root diseases like rot
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/pos...?postnum=29510
effects of soil settling, salt and drought on root rot
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/pos...?postnum=29579
when to irrigate/how to determine when to water and how much
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/pos...?postnum=29674
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/pos...?postnum=29691
cation exchange capacity
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/pos...?postnum=29697
thailer
Well-known member
Rocks in Pots: Drainage or Perched Water Table Problems?
— Written By Minda Daughtry and last updated by Rhonda Gaster
Many of us have grown plants in pots, planters or other containers. It’s a different environment. Not only is the planting location unique – isolated from the ground and open at both the top and some on the bottom, the container soils are different from ground bed soils.
The soil’s most important function regarding plants is to store and supply the water and minerals essential for plant growth and survival. Soil aeration is a critical element for plant growth as it supplies oxygen to removes carbon dioxide from the plant roots.
The soil water and mineral “tank” available to container plants is much less than for those growing in the ground that can tap into resources further from the plant. That being the case this reservoir must, therefore, be replenished by frequent irrigation and fertilization, thoughtfully managed.
Think of a flat sponge to picture the effect of container soil depth on how much water is available to the plant from the container soil. The sponge, like the soil, is full of pores which are occupied by water when the sponge is saturated. After water stops dripping from the flat sponge, then is stood on end, more water will drain out of it. Just increasing the height of the sponge by turning it up on end decreases its water content.
Container soil behaves the same way. When we water our plants correctly it soaks into the soil. Each particle although small, actually has lots of surface area from tiny uneven ridges and valleys. Through surface tension, a certain amount of our applied water is held by the soil pores and the remainder gradually percolates downward to the depth of the pot where all the soil is filled with water.
Actually, a perched water table (where the water “perches” or gathers) forms at the container soil bottom where the drainage level is, even though it is open at the bottom. This saturated water level is called a water table. This happens in outdoor soil too, not just in our containers. The water table is the dividing line separating the unsaturated zone from the saturated zone. The soil is saturated because the pores are filled with water. The area above the water table is the unsaturated zone and is where the plant’s roots have space to grow well. If gravel is added to the bottom of the pot, the perched water table area of saturated soil without aeration is above that in the container, so even less room for the roots to grow and be healthy in. Root rot diseases can be the result of roots remaining in waterlogged soils.
Although container smallness and shallowness create problems for growing plants, these problems can be minimized through proper irrigation, fertilization, and use of soil amendments.
Remember, CONTAINER SOILS ARE DIFFERENT and therefore require different care than garden or field soils. Skip the gravel in the bottom of the pot. It can create a result completely contrary to the drainage you want to achieve.
Minda Daughtry is Horticulture Agent for North Carolina Cooperative Extension in Lee County. https://lee.ces.ncsu.edu/2018/12/rocks-in-pots-drainage-or-perched-water-table-problems/
— Written By Minda Daughtry and last updated by Rhonda Gaster
Many of us have grown plants in pots, planters or other containers. It’s a different environment. Not only is the planting location unique – isolated from the ground and open at both the top and some on the bottom, the container soils are different from ground bed soils.
The soil’s most important function regarding plants is to store and supply the water and minerals essential for plant growth and survival. Soil aeration is a critical element for plant growth as it supplies oxygen to removes carbon dioxide from the plant roots.
The soil water and mineral “tank” available to container plants is much less than for those growing in the ground that can tap into resources further from the plant. That being the case this reservoir must, therefore, be replenished by frequent irrigation and fertilization, thoughtfully managed.
Think of a flat sponge to picture the effect of container soil depth on how much water is available to the plant from the container soil. The sponge, like the soil, is full of pores which are occupied by water when the sponge is saturated. After water stops dripping from the flat sponge, then is stood on end, more water will drain out of it. Just increasing the height of the sponge by turning it up on end decreases its water content.
Container soil behaves the same way. When we water our plants correctly it soaks into the soil. Each particle although small, actually has lots of surface area from tiny uneven ridges and valleys. Through surface tension, a certain amount of our applied water is held by the soil pores and the remainder gradually percolates downward to the depth of the pot where all the soil is filled with water.
Actually, a perched water table (where the water “perches” or gathers) forms at the container soil bottom where the drainage level is, even though it is open at the bottom. This saturated water level is called a water table. This happens in outdoor soil too, not just in our containers. The water table is the dividing line separating the unsaturated zone from the saturated zone. The soil is saturated because the pores are filled with water. The area above the water table is the unsaturated zone and is where the plant’s roots have space to grow well. If gravel is added to the bottom of the pot, the perched water table area of saturated soil without aeration is above that in the container, so even less room for the roots to grow and be healthy in. Root rot diseases can be the result of roots remaining in waterlogged soils.
Although container smallness and shallowness create problems for growing plants, these problems can be minimized through proper irrigation, fertilization, and use of soil amendments.
Remember, CONTAINER SOILS ARE DIFFERENT and therefore require different care than garden or field soils. Skip the gravel in the bottom of the pot. It can create a result completely contrary to the drainage you want to achieve.
Minda Daughtry is Horticulture Agent for North Carolina Cooperative Extension in Lee County. https://lee.ces.ncsu.edu/2018/12/rocks-in-pots-drainage-or-perched-water-table-problems/
So I am testing out the SIP tote / bag system I am going to try. The tote on the left is connected to the one on the right through the fill / drain port on the bottom, by a 1/2" hose. The perlite is on top of a layer of fabric, which is laying on the grate. I think the edges of the fabric will need to be taped to the sides of the tote, so there is no perlite leak into the grate. I set the bag with already moist soil on the perlite. The Bluemat reading on the pre-moistened soil is 35 initially, with the tip of the carrot about an inch up.
The perlite is visible around the edges of the "7 gallon" bag down below . Reading still 33. Anything under 40 is too wet according to Bluemat. 60-80 supposed to be just right, so we'll see how dry the soil gets when it reaches equilibrium. I should gather up some cover and incorporate it into this test.
I will keep water in the "control box" tote filled to the SIP water level (1/2" above the grate, with 1 1/2" perlite on fabric over the grate), and watch the moisture in the bag. Here is the test set-up, fan blowing on the top to dry the surface. Reading 34, and if the soil will wick up through the bag from the perlite, this may work. There are no worms in the soil, and it is still uncooked.
Edit: After 3 hours things are pretty stable and proving nothing, because the soil is at the wettest I would want it anyways. A remote moisture sensor showed up, so I will piggy-back learning about it as I play with this SIP. I cut the hose between the two totes, and the water is now draining from the test tote just like in a drying cycle, with an air gap under the perlite because the grill has drained. The objective is to get a feel for how long it takes for the soil to dry, and re-moisten. Plus, gain some confidence in the instrumentation.
I have some connector stuff coming that I hope will make hooking / unhooking a wet SIP manageable, and I will use that to put this back together for the re-wetting.
BTW, I have also seen perched water tables described as a pool that is trapped above the surrounding water table by an impermeable layer, like a swimming pool is.
Now for stoner ramblings...
The soil thickness is about 9", and that 5 real gallons ain't much dirt for the plants I want to grow. The 2" empty top area is for cover and mulch. I will let this set-up go a couple days, then put on cover and mulch and see how it does with that.
Height ratio here is 6-1 (soil / wick). Since the grate should wet the entire bottom of the perlite, I don't see the thickness of the wick that is in the SIP water mattering - except in the dry-down phase. The bag sides have good ventilation, so the SIP will be challenged.
The other tote I wetted/washed the perlite in still has water and perlite in the bottom, and that water is filled with fines from the perlite. Look like fine sand, plus the fine perlite. I wish I had washed the perlite in a big tub before I made my soil with it. I will wash my wicking perlite to remove those fines, and only use the coarser granules that are on top of the washed perlite, like these:
These totes and their individual scrogs may be OK for the front 2' x 4' of the flower tent, because they can be moved out of the way. I am already thinking of a 2' x 4' bed in back, that stays there. Maybe get 3 plants in it. Using drain pipes, a layer of fabric, then 12 inches of soil (almost 8 cubic feet) over that. Put two of these totes in the front, and all would be at the same 5" SIP water level. Probably would want two water inlets (1/2" hose") at each end for the 4' wide bed. They are selling fabric tent beds now.
No idea how I could manage this guy's 5 x 5 deal, because I will only have front door access - thus the individual scrog at first. This is what my current set-up should be like if I am successful (2nd layer of scrog). 4 x 4 bed:
https://www.reddit.com/r/NoTillGrow...h_run_4x4_living_soil_bed_day_9_flower_under/
The perlite is visible around the edges of the "7 gallon" bag down below . Reading still 33. Anything under 40 is too wet according to Bluemat. 60-80 supposed to be just right, so we'll see how dry the soil gets when it reaches equilibrium. I should gather up some cover and incorporate it into this test.
I will keep water in the "control box" tote filled to the SIP water level (1/2" above the grate, with 1 1/2" perlite on fabric over the grate), and watch the moisture in the bag. Here is the test set-up, fan blowing on the top to dry the surface. Reading 34, and if the soil will wick up through the bag from the perlite, this may work. There are no worms in the soil, and it is still uncooked.
Edit: After 3 hours things are pretty stable and proving nothing, because the soil is at the wettest I would want it anyways. A remote moisture sensor showed up, so I will piggy-back learning about it as I play with this SIP. I cut the hose between the two totes, and the water is now draining from the test tote just like in a drying cycle, with an air gap under the perlite because the grill has drained. The objective is to get a feel for how long it takes for the soil to dry, and re-moisten. Plus, gain some confidence in the instrumentation.
I have some connector stuff coming that I hope will make hooking / unhooking a wet SIP manageable, and I will use that to put this back together for the re-wetting.
BTW, I have also seen perched water tables described as a pool that is trapped above the surrounding water table by an impermeable layer, like a swimming pool is.
Now for stoner ramblings...
The soil thickness is about 9", and that 5 real gallons ain't much dirt for the plants I want to grow. The 2" empty top area is for cover and mulch. I will let this set-up go a couple days, then put on cover and mulch and see how it does with that.
Height ratio here is 6-1 (soil / wick). Since the grate should wet the entire bottom of the perlite, I don't see the thickness of the wick that is in the SIP water mattering - except in the dry-down phase. The bag sides have good ventilation, so the SIP will be challenged.
The other tote I wetted/washed the perlite in still has water and perlite in the bottom, and that water is filled with fines from the perlite. Look like fine sand, plus the fine perlite. I wish I had washed the perlite in a big tub before I made my soil with it. I will wash my wicking perlite to remove those fines, and only use the coarser granules that are on top of the washed perlite, like these:
These totes and their individual scrogs may be OK for the front 2' x 4' of the flower tent, because they can be moved out of the way. I am already thinking of a 2' x 4' bed in back, that stays there. Maybe get 3 plants in it. Using drain pipes, a layer of fabric, then 12 inches of soil (almost 8 cubic feet) over that. Put two of these totes in the front, and all would be at the same 5" SIP water level. Probably would want two water inlets (1/2" hose") at each end for the 4' wide bed. They are selling fabric tent beds now.
No idea how I could manage this guy's 5 x 5 deal, because I will only have front door access - thus the individual scrog at first. This is what my current set-up should be like if I am successful (2nd layer of scrog). 4 x 4 bed:
https://www.reddit.com/r/NoTillGrow...h_run_4x4_living_soil_bed_day_9_flower_under/
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The influence of WB (Wicking Bed) design variables (reservoir
depths and soil bed depths) was tested. Results showed that WBs performed as well or better
than precision surface irrigated pots, showing statistically significant improvement in WUE, yield
and fruit quality. The results also suggest an optimum design exists for soil depth (where 300 mm
outperformed 600 mm) but not reservoir depth (no difference between 150 and 300 mm). The WBs
were more labour efficient, requiring significantly less frequent watering to achieve the same or
better WUE. WBs are inherently low-tech and scalable and appear well-suited to a variety of urban
agriculture settings.
From the study in this link. Its 18 pages but I've not read it all.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b2...8.1964858673.1603088281-1262609389.1603088281
depths and soil bed depths) was tested. Results showed that WBs performed as well or better
than precision surface irrigated pots, showing statistically significant improvement in WUE, yield
and fruit quality. The results also suggest an optimum design exists for soil depth (where 300 mm
outperformed 600 mm) but not reservoir depth (no difference between 150 and 300 mm). The WBs
were more labour efficient, requiring significantly less frequent watering to achieve the same or
better WUE. WBs are inherently low-tech and scalable and appear well-suited to a variety of urban
agriculture settings.
From the study in this link. Its 18 pages but I've not read it all.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b2...8.1964858673.1603088281-1262609389.1603088281
thailer
Well-known member
i am almost ready to discuss it. i tried to find other studies but it is the only one. it uses dirt from the ground that doesn't sound that ideal and i think growing in field soil isn't a good comparison to using actually potting mix. sandy soil doesn't have a lot of air. maybe thats why the SIPs got budrot and it says it could also be contributed to low calcium. the study said theres room to improve and gave reasons why they thought certain aspects of the experiment turned out the way they did. some of the info is good like i am curious about the wet weight vs dry weight of fruit produced. it was very interesting how they set it up. i wish they would've use actual potting soil tho.
