CrustyCruz
Member
Anyone bubble their sip res? Or run nylon wick up through the medium? Or o2 lines?
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You Gotta SIP, Not Slurp
- Thread starter thailer
- Start date
Hi folks what do u think could a ebb and flood system in the water reservoire be a good idea? Makes the setup more complicated but adds the good aeration of the ebb and flow. Think 2-3 cycles a day should be good for pulling enough fresh air in the soil. And u won't need a pump since u just have to lift the water from one container to the other. A simple airlifter for aquarium should do the job.
thailer
Well-known member
you don't need to bubble the rez. i know of a couple people that do this but air travels through soil and air travels along the soil and plastic tote wall/container as well. air is down there. i swear it. my roots grow down into the reservoir and they don't rot. in fact, i had to use a knife to cut some main thick roots to remove a plant a couple weeks ago out of a SIP. that thing was anchored to the bottom reservoir area lemme tell ya.
thailer
Well-known member
So i was gonna buy the 55 gallon totes but sitting right next to them was a 70 gallon on wheels!! its even taller than the 55 gallon too. so i bought four of those and started mixing soil. i bought one 25' perforated drainage pipe but soon found i need another one so off i go today to buy some stuff i need.
seriously am excited to grow right now. sometimes i get in a slump because i've been doing it for a while now and really needed this to get my shit in gear to take it to the next level.
seriously am excited to grow right now. sometimes i get in a slump because i've been doing it for a while now and really needed this to get my shit in gear to take it to the next level.
thailer
Well-known member
Orange Apricot Mac is about to hit bloom as soon as i get some roots on clones. i just love the way she grows and smells in veg. i love to defoliate her cause she smells like oranges and then my hands smell like oranges. i usually don't get plants that smell like they do in bloom while vegging. I got some buds with the clones so i know what to expect and its a rotten orange smell to me.
Then theres some Lemon Shiv buds i got from a single plant that produced 1/2 pound of grade A & B buds and a shit ton of smalls, sugar and whispy larfs in the freezer for making hash. i didn't even weight that but i think i could get 3-4 more ounces of smalls and still have loads of sugars. smells like lemon pine and the high goes away pretty quickly and you build up a tolerance to it after a few days but its pretty potent until then. i didn't keep this plant.
all grown in a SIP with no added air.
Yeah man, my sips are reused and the soil had worms in it from the beginning.
I was worried they would drown themselves in the rez but it is not often that I find any making there way down there. They seem to stay in the moist soil above the rez.
I say go for it!
thailer
Well-known member
i didn't see that question...because i would've said i use a SIP as a worm bin. i wish i would've taken a pic but the lemon shiv i vegged out for months before i bloomed it so i think it was in the SIP for close to six months at least. when i harvested, the soil level had dropped 5" and it was black pure vermicompost. not little worm turd casting but vermicompost, like beyond finished and nothing left to digest. big fat juicy worms.
I'm considering something similar.
All my totes' drains have bulkheads with 1/2" fittings. I'm considering connecting all the drains to a reservoir outside the tent with some sort of filter. Then a pump with lines to the fill tubes. Then an aquarium heater.
I'm thinking this might mitigate some of the cold basement, since I top out at about 74 degrees. If I can get the water to around 78 degrees -- might help keep the soil warm and eliminate watering.
thailer
Well-known member
ebb and flow systems are hydroponics and it works completely different than a SIP system. no where in a SIP system does water move up and down. it is designed to work like nature using a water table. i am not sure why people think they need more air when the plants grown in this simple, reliable system with barely any reason to break, grow exceptionally well, if not better than regular hand watered plants?!
The idea came from the riverbank thread. Because a system is good doesn't mean it couldn't get better.
Have tried a sip yet? First try it so that you can:
1. See first hand if it requires ebb and flow.
2. You will need to run sips for several seasons so you have a benchmark to compare to when you experiment with ebb and flow.
I dont say that it requires, i was asking if it could be a good addition.
I hand water my SIPs so the level rises and falls anyhow.
The concept has people losing their minds over aeration and cannabis not liking wet feet blah blah blah. I was the same until I did it and saw for myself if the sip is set up correctly and an air space maintained in the rez then it will have all the aeration required for plants to survive and thrive.
The concept has people losing their minds over aeration and cannabis not liking wet feet blah blah blah. I was the same until I did it and saw for myself if the sip is set up correctly and an air space maintained in the rez then it will have all the aeration required for plants to survive and thrive.
thailer
Well-known member
well it goes back to what i was talking about air and water saturation. so in ebb and flow systems the water fills up and raises to a certain point and then goes back down again multple times per day. its like timed irrigation. they say that the water pushes air out of the container as it rises and then draws in fresh air as the water level lowers IIRC. this may work ok for rockwool or hydropellets which do not rely on microbiology that depend on keeping oxygen saturation as high as possible but with soil, particularly peat moss and compost can be overwatered easy cutting down the air levels drastically. if you are flooding the peat moss with water multiple times per day or dare i say even once, the peat moss can not release that amount of water compared to rockwool or clay pellets which allow water to drain freely or draw in air. when you overwater peat moss, the plants yellow out due to lack of oxygen. thats why i feel its not going to be helpful whatsoever and is basically comparing apples and oranges.
in a SIP the water wicks up until the soil reaches a certain saturation point and as the water gets taken up by the plants or released into the air as humidity, the water is replaced due to capillary action. water is made up of H20 molecules and each H20 attached to the H20 next to it via hydrogen bonding. so its like everyone is holding hands!! now water can also make hydrogen bonds with other stuff too which is called adsorption so water will attach to perlite, plastic pot walls, anything. so the properties of water can climb vertically against gravity using hydrogen bonding. well this hydrogen bonding is not as strong as the bonding that happens to the sides of plastic pots and perlite.
so this water can spread out thin and crawl up the sides of perlite, leaving space for air while the water table below provides this sort of pressure to move upwards and that pressure to move upwards is determined by the amount of water and how it sits in the container. if the container is taller than it is wider, then the water has better force to climb up tall skinny pots compared to a short squat container like a bed or an Earthbox or City Sipper from HD.
So this is why i am wanting taller pots so there is a certain point the water stops traveling and the topsoil is dry and there is more air at the root zone. i think the design in th older days is what promotes wet feet and why SIPs didn't gain the popularity. when designed correctly they work awesome.
in a SIP the water wicks up until the soil reaches a certain saturation point and as the water gets taken up by the plants or released into the air as humidity, the water is replaced due to capillary action. water is made up of H20 molecules and each H20 attached to the H20 next to it via hydrogen bonding. so its like everyone is holding hands!! now water can also make hydrogen bonds with other stuff too which is called adsorption so water will attach to perlite, plastic pot walls, anything. so the properties of water can climb vertically against gravity using hydrogen bonding. well this hydrogen bonding is not as strong as the bonding that happens to the sides of plastic pots and perlite.
so this water can spread out thin and crawl up the sides of perlite, leaving space for air while the water table below provides this sort of pressure to move upwards and that pressure to move upwards is determined by the amount of water and how it sits in the container. if the container is taller than it is wider, then the water has better force to climb up tall skinny pots compared to a short squat container like a bed or an Earthbox or City Sipper from HD.
So this is why i am wanting taller pots so there is a certain point the water stops traveling and the topsoil is dry and there is more air at the root zone. i think the design in th older days is what promotes wet feet and why SIPs didn't gain the popularity. when designed correctly they work awesome.
thailer
Well-known member
Container soils should have a good balance between air- porosity and water- holding capacity. But what are the favorable levels of these two parameters? Most horticulturists will recommend providing a soil with “good drainage”. But what exactly does that mean? How do we quantify that? If we know, then soil manufacturers can develop, standardize and describe soil mixes. Growers can select, develop or modify their own soil mixes for their particular needs.
Let's start with air-filled porosity. There have been many experiments demonstrating that air-filled porosity is highly correlated with the growth of various plants. Here are two examples, Fig 1:
Figure 1 Examples of growth responses to % air-filled porosity
Some researchers reported that the rate of oxygen diffusion through the soil-- rather than air-filled porosity-- is more closely related to plant growth. This might be because the oxygen in the air pores has to move to the roots before it is absorbed and used by the roots. In general, these and similar studies have led to a recommendation that air-filled porosity should be at least 10% and generally no more than 25% of the total soil volume. Fig 2.
Figure 2 Generalized growth responses to % air-filled porosity
So a plants' requirements for soil aeration can vary, and here are some examples. Fig 3.
Figure 3 Examples of plant aeration requirements
There are other consequences of having poor soil aeration. Soils with low oxygen or anaerobic conditions can lead to chemical reduction. Reduced forms of some chemicals, such as methane (CH4), hydrogen sulfide (H2S), nitrite (NO2-), and manganese ion (Mn2+), are toxic to plants. The latter is probably the most important. Plants growing in poorly aerated soil can have manganese levels as high as 1200 ppm in their leaves (normal levels are 50-200 ppm). These high levels lead to manganese toxicity, with symptoms of marginal leaf chlorosis (yellowing from loss of chlorophyll, the green pigment in leaves).
What about the water filled portion of the soil? The recommendation is that at least 40% of the total volume should be filled with water at container capacity (after full drainage). In general, container soils with a water-holding capacity of 40% would hold enough water to meet plant demand for about one day. Usually mixes have a higher water-holding capacity than this so that irrigation can be less frequent. Total porosity, air and water porosity combined, must therefore be greater or equal to 50%. These parameters are summarized in Fig 4.
Figure 4 Generalized porosity requirements at container capacity
Here are examples of 3 historically important container mixes. The “UC Mix” was the first “soil- less" mix, mostly developed for the outdoor nurseries. It provided the essential requirements for a container mix: Good water holding capacity and aeration, high permeability, relatively disease-free, resistant to salinity buildup, reasonable pH range, good nutrient holding capacity, and provided for enough weight of the container so plants would not blow over in the wind. The “Cornell Lite” mixes containing peat mixed with either vermiculite or perlite are excellent for greenhouse crop production, but they are too light for outdoor nurseries and more expensive because of the relatively high cost of vermiculite and perlite. Fig 5.
Figure 5 Examples of container mix porosity at container capacity.
These soil physical properties are best measured by commercial or research soil laboratories. If you are buying soil mixes, ask if the provider has these measurements. In a pinch, growers can estimate the values with a relatively simple method that was described by James Altland when he was with Oregon State University. I have provided a simplified outline here. Fig 6. shown in post below due to 5 image limit per post. info sourced from https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=29450
Let's start with air-filled porosity. There have been many experiments demonstrating that air-filled porosity is highly correlated with the growth of various plants. Here are two examples, Fig 1:
Figure 1 Examples of growth responses to % air-filled porosity
Some researchers reported that the rate of oxygen diffusion through the soil-- rather than air-filled porosity-- is more closely related to plant growth. This might be because the oxygen in the air pores has to move to the roots before it is absorbed and used by the roots. In general, these and similar studies have led to a recommendation that air-filled porosity should be at least 10% and generally no more than 25% of the total soil volume. Fig 2.
Figure 2 Generalized growth responses to % air-filled porosity
So a plants' requirements for soil aeration can vary, and here are some examples. Fig 3.
Figure 3 Examples of plant aeration requirements
There are other consequences of having poor soil aeration. Soils with low oxygen or anaerobic conditions can lead to chemical reduction. Reduced forms of some chemicals, such as methane (CH4), hydrogen sulfide (H2S), nitrite (NO2-), and manganese ion (Mn2+), are toxic to plants. The latter is probably the most important. Plants growing in poorly aerated soil can have manganese levels as high as 1200 ppm in their leaves (normal levels are 50-200 ppm). These high levels lead to manganese toxicity, with symptoms of marginal leaf chlorosis (yellowing from loss of chlorophyll, the green pigment in leaves).
What about the water filled portion of the soil? The recommendation is that at least 40% of the total volume should be filled with water at container capacity (after full drainage). In general, container soils with a water-holding capacity of 40% would hold enough water to meet plant demand for about one day. Usually mixes have a higher water-holding capacity than this so that irrigation can be less frequent. Total porosity, air and water porosity combined, must therefore be greater or equal to 50%. These parameters are summarized in Fig 4.
Figure 4 Generalized porosity requirements at container capacity
Here are examples of 3 historically important container mixes. The “UC Mix” was the first “soil- less" mix, mostly developed for the outdoor nurseries. It provided the essential requirements for a container mix: Good water holding capacity and aeration, high permeability, relatively disease-free, resistant to salinity buildup, reasonable pH range, good nutrient holding capacity, and provided for enough weight of the container so plants would not blow over in the wind. The “Cornell Lite” mixes containing peat mixed with either vermiculite or perlite are excellent for greenhouse crop production, but they are too light for outdoor nurseries and more expensive because of the relatively high cost of vermiculite and perlite. Fig 5.
Figure 5 Examples of container mix porosity at container capacity.
These soil physical properties are best measured by commercial or research soil laboratories. If you are buying soil mixes, ask if the provider has these measurements. In a pinch, growers can estimate the values with a relatively simple method that was described by James Altland when he was with Oregon State University. I have provided a simplified outline here. Fig 6. shown in post below due to 5 image limit per post. info sourced from https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=29450
thailer
Well-known member
that is called a SWICK system where you take fabric bags and place them on a bed of perlite, kinda nestled down to promote contact with the perlite and the fabric pot. it works best for squat planters and smaller gallon pots. the taller 15/20 gallons+ are too tall to get enough water because the water can only travel up so far. they tend to get green algae on the perlite from the grow lights. i used one for a little while a long, long, time ago. its not as good but useful if you want irrigation for small little plants in portable pots.
