Yellow new growth in Ebb N Gro Pics

[GuerillaAk]

Yep, I still feed at least 25%-35% Grow nutes/formula all through flower, but go by what your plants will take (push them as hard as you can if you have good roots) but they will take a surprising amount of food if offered. Just don't increase more than about 200PPM per feeding and they won't freak out on you.

K my buddies setup (keep in mind, he's a breeder and keeps the best clones/phenos for himself

2 32-site 2 gallon bucket ebb and grows
2 Solar Revolution movers with 4 X 600w each (+ 1 stationary 600w in the corner)
Canna Bio Terra coco
Waters every other day when plants are big
Bloom is the company name of the nutes, he's using the whole line, only outside additive is inoculaid. Pricey stuff he says.
Sealed room, split AC, CO2 on fuzzy logic, all digi ballasts, separate veg room (plants vegged 7-12 days tops) but god they're pretty, I'll ask if I can snap a couple pics next time I'm over there. He just chopped so it will be a little while anyway. So out of his 5400 watts he's getting 12-15 pounds per cycle. Puts me to shame in sooo many ways.

I will keep that in mind about the grow nutes.Im trying to stay close to the lucas formula but I don't know how much more grow nutes to add. Say the targets are 100-100-200 N-P-K and and we are calling PK the bloom nutes which add up to 300 ppm. So used 25-34% of 200 which would be 75-105 PPM of N. So add 75-105 PPM into that formula or leave it the way it is cuz its already close to those targets. Maybe I'm analyzing too much. Maybe 175 would be a good number to hit since the lucas formula seems to be low in nitrogen.
Im sure a your buddies yeild is super charged by all those movers and the over lapping footprint of each light efficiently using those lumens. Plus the benefit that the 600 run so much cooler and less stressful for the plants.
12-15 pounds 5400 watts per 5400 watts! I would give my left nut for those numbers! Hell, I would I would give my right one too! LOL!
You should get him to join in on the forum! You two could start a thread on how to get those yeilds! Shit advanced nute would probably sponcer him if would claim to use there nutes! LOL! Cuz u know the only was to get those kind of yeilds are with advanced! And It take 20 different products! Not 2 or 3 Plus ph up or down!

 

[GuerillaAk]

Feeding them to high of a ppm. And you were watering them to frequently. I never go above 1120 ppm. Basically, you're burning them up
Keep the nute level under 1120. Water this way. 1 hour before lights on, every 4 hours after that, then 1 hour after lights out. Check your plants during the change to make sure they are not drying out between watering. When adding bloom booster, drop back on the normal bloom nutes then adjust up to the normal ppm with the bloom booster. Suddenly raisning the ppm by 300 or so is gonna do what you got going on every time.
Watering-remove the spacers you put them on. Turn the pump on and run it until you get about half way up the medium then run it for another 2 minutes. This will give them what they need. If you water too long on the E&F it will cause root rot and then you're screwed big time.
Once a month, flush with something like Clearx added to the water. Add it and run the pump for about 1 hour and 15 minutes. This will help to pull out the old stuff and help get rid of salt buildup on the medium. During this flush I use a cup to pour the flush water over the medium and use my fingers to help wash away the salt buildup. In hydro, it's important to flush.
I change the nutes every 2 weeks. Never had a problem with this schedule.
I would add calmag at 3 ml/gallon of water. Good stuff.

Yep I pretty much got it set up the way u described. Ill keep in mind about the 1120 and adjusting the nutes to add the boosters. good info.
But why do I need to remove the blocks they are sitting on . If I take them out they sit in 2'' of water. Do you mean to do this just during the flush?
I never flood for more than 15 min.
I do flush the way you decrived but I disconect the rez pump hose from the controler which is set to drain and spray water in the top of the pots. I kink the hose when moving from pot to pot. I got GH flush solution but I havent used it in this system yet.
You said you use calmag but what base nute do you use?

 

[resinryder]

When you run your flood them correctly you don't need the blocks. It's important to expose the roots to the flood but not for prolonged periods of time. That's what causes root rot. That's why I told you how to time your flood cycle. Nothing worse than watching your girls die in mass due to root rot.
My rockwool or coco filled smart pots easily sit in 2 1/2 to 3 inches of water when being flooded.
The method you describe for flushing works great.
I've used several nute lines over the years and have found everyone lacking in the cal mag department. That's why most nute lines have a cal mag additive for their program line. On my table I'm using a chem line that isn't being made anymore so I'm gonna have to change up when it runs out. I always start using calmag at 2 ml/gallon and increase to 3ml/gal as the run progresses. Have only had 1 strain in the past 5 to 6 years that really needed more that that. CalMag problems are easy to diagnose, the new growth at the top yellows and then works its way down the plant. Nitrogen yellows the leaves at the bottom and works it way up. Too much nitrogen in bloom causes that "claw" effect that is showing in your first set of pics.
Remember, in E&F systems, the plants are fed every time the pump comes on. So they only need enough nutes to give them what they need, not what you think they need. It's very easy to over fert them. So the "less is more" saying applies to hydro in a big way. Hope that clarified what you asked.

 

[GuerillaAk]

When you run your flood them correctly you don't need the blocks. It's important to expose the roots to the flood but not for prolonged periods of time. That's what causes root rot. That's why I told you how to time your flood cycle. Nothing worse than watching your girls die in mass due to root rot.
My rockwool or coco filled smart pots easily sit in 2 1/2 to 3 inches of water when being flooded.
The method you describe for flushing works great.
I've used several nute lines over the years and have found everyone lacking in the cal mag department. That's why most nute lines have a cal mag additive for their program line. On my table I'm using a chem line that isn't being made anymore so I'm gonna have to change up when it runs out. I always start using calmag at 2 ml/gallon and increase to 3ml/gal as the run progresses. Have only had 1 strain in the past 5 to 6 years that really needed more that that. CalMag problems are easy to diagnose, I d.

So you don't think two inches of water in the bottom of the pot after the drain cycle is over will effect the heath of the plants? There is still a lil bit of water left in the bottom even after I used the blocks. The roots are still bright white down in the water.
I added calmag to try to fix the yellowing I was getting but it seemed to make it worse. I think I used 2.4ML. Have you used cal-mag with GH Flora? or Maxibloom?

 

[resinryder]

What kind of pots are you using on a flood and drain table that won't drain and are holding 2 inches of water? If the pots won't drain when the flood is complete you're not utilizing your system correctly. No container should hold standing water on a E&F.
Never used the GH Flora or Maxibloom. Did some looking around and have found some use Epsom salts with it, some cal mag, some nothing. Never heard of CalMag making the yellowing worse tho. Sounds like something else going on. I read that you've flush well recently. Are you using the feed chart that is associated with the maxi grow/bloom line? Using less than recommended, what's recommended, or more? If the yellowing is getting worse maybe still too strong of a mix. Yellowing in hydro will usually indicate either to strong of a mix or not enough cal/mag or low levels of nitrogen(not enough in veg and even in bloom, low levels of nitrogen are needed to a certain extent, some plants more so than others).
Trying to figure out what you have going on so it can be corrected. Answer these questions if you would.
-Did you add the cal mag on top of your normal nute mix? If so, the calmag will raise your ppm levels just like everything else we add to the res.
-Did you start using you bloom nutes as soon as you flipped to 12/12? or did you continue with the veg nutes for a couple of weeks? You need to keep blooming plants on the veg nutes during at least the first 2 weeks (of a 8 week strain) mixing with a bit of bloom nutes during week 2. Strains that go longer, 10, 11, and 12 weeks, I keep the veg nutes in the res longer and mix the veg and bloom nutes at week 3. This usually gives them the nitrogen they need to make it through bloom. Don't add it and the plants pulls is nitrogen reserves(the green in the leaves) out way to early.

And so you'll know, adding too much KoolBloom will cause the leaves to yellow and crisp up too. It's best if you only add a very small amount to your res at any time. I never add more than 120 to 150 ppm of it to the res at any one time. I add it to my initial res change at week 5 and do not add anymore until I add more water during week 6 and then only a lesser amount. It's strong stuff.

 

[GuerillaAk]

What kind of pots are you using on a flood and drain table that won't drain and are holding 2 inches of water? If the pots won't drain when the flood is complete you're not utilizing your system correctly. No container should hold standing water on a E&F.Using less than recommended, what's recommended, or more? If the yellowing is getting worse maybe still too strong of a mix. Yellowing in hydro will usually indicate either to strong of a mix or not enough cal/mag or low levels of nitrogen(not enough in veg and even in bloom, low levels of nitrogen are needed to a certain extent, some plants more so than others).
Trying to figure out what you have going on so it can be corrected. Answer these questions if you would.

It holds cuz Its a Ebb N Gro. They usually hold a little water in the bottom.
They hold even more if the controller buckets sit a little higher than the Potts. I think its pretty normal to have to boost the pots up a little bit to make it level with the controller or to make sure all the water drains out of them.

Never used the GH Flora or Maxibloom. Did some looking around and have found some use Epsom salts with it, some cal mag, some nothing. Never heard of CalMag making the yellowing worse tho. Sounds like something else going on. I read that you've flush well recently. Are you using the feed chart that is associated with the maxi grow/bloom line?

Well maybe the calmag didn't make it worse it probably was bcuz I was running to high of TDS. I was running at 1330 the whole time instead of working my way up. I am trying to follow the Lucas formula that , which is why I went with Maxibloom. It has similar NPKmg Ratios. Which I have read from Dongle's(he seems to highly reccomend MB) that 7grams/gal is close enough to call it Lucas formula. I was running 1330 cuz Lucas said freshly rooted clone could hand it and there was no need to start at lower strenghth. Which the seedlings did handle it for a little which before they started showing signs of over feeding.

-Did you add the cal mag on top of your normal nute mix? If so, the calmag will raise your ppm levels just like everything else we add to the res.

Once the ppms dropped I added 2.5ml/gal to raise it back up to around 1330.

-Did you start using you bloom nutes as soon as you flipped to 12/12? or did you continue with the veg nutes for a couple of weeks? You need to keep blooming plants on the veg nutes during at least the first 2 weeks (of a 8 week strain) mixing with a bit of bloom nutes during week 2. Strains that go longer, 10, 11, and 12 weeks, I keep the veg nutes in the res longer and mix the veg and bloom nutes at week 3. This usually gives them the nitrogen they need to make it through bloom. Don't add it and the plants pulls is nitrogen reserves(the green in the leaves) out way to early.

I kept running the same formula I did in veg.

And so you'll know, adding too much KoolBloom will cause the leaves to yellow and crisp up too. It's best if you only add a very small amount to your res at any time. I never add more than 120 to 150 ppm of it to the res at any one time. I add it to my initial res change at week 5 and do not add anymore until I add more water during week 6 and then only a lesser amount. It's strong stuff.

Good info. I will use this as a guide cuz it sound like the safer way to do it then jump strait to 7ml/gal

 

[EvilTwin]

Hi GA,
I hope you left the wood blocks in place. I feel it's important to do that to ensure good drainage.

As to why a factory system would function that way...that's another issue. As I was thinking about your situation, I considered that there could be something wrong with your system. Possibly a bad float (my guess would be the bottom float at the bottom of your controller. That one sets the maximum low setting and if it's bad (always closed) then your bottom (lowest) level would be off.

I'm stoned but I think my thought process is correct...

You could test your floats. Disconnect the system by unplugging the pumps during drain time. then plug in a lamp as a test load and check to be sure that all your floats are funtioning. (manually lift them) You'll have to mess with your timer setting, just make a note of what the original time setting was. Might be worth doing...or wait till this run is over and check while the system is out of service.
ET

 

[GuerillaAk]

Hey ET. That' a good point I will give it a test. I think that I may be caused by the controller sitting a little higher than the buckets. The controller and buckets sit in a flood protection barrier 1' high walls all the way around them. the inside is lined with EPDM rubber. The room is upstairs so if a relay fails it will fill up my 4'x9' ''reservoir''. The room is lower in the center than at the walls too and the controller sits by the wall.

what effect would it have on the plants I running window ac unit but I have no co2. I planned on getting co2 but ran out of cash. The room is not completely sealed tho. I have the ac set to bring in fresh air too.

here is a few update pic. everything is starting to look a little better.

I keep forgetting to turn of the HPSs when I take the pic. Then I realize it but the battery go dead to quick. Fuckin camera!

 

[EvilTwin]

GA,
The system is designed to function with everything on the same plane. You should level everything up and that issue will go away.

Your plants are looking good, so your fresh air situation can't be that bad. They need fresh air and air movement in the room. Provide that, however you can, and you'll be ok.

When you set a Window AC for fresh air...it's usually a fairly small % of the output. Like 10%. So look up the CFMs of the AC and consider 10% (or whatever figure you can find in the specs) and that will tell you your fresh air exchange rate. It may be a little low, but you can just open a door occasionally. Should start cooling down soon.

Just note that ideally you should be exchanging air in the entire room like once in 5 minutes. That's my target figure.
ET

 

[GuerillaAk]

Hey bud. Today I cut 9''x9'' high density iso board insulation I had. It was only .5'' thick so I doubled them up. So they are an inch higher and should hole pretty much zero water. After adding one inch of HD iso that made a total of 2.5 inches i had to raise. Still there is a small amount of water in the bottoms. It doesn't drain fully cuz the drain has to be off the bottom a quarter inch to make room for the gromet to seal properly.But the plants will drink that up quick. They say a little in the bottom is a good thing cuz if anything goes wrong and the plants are not getting flooded there is still water in the bottom to drink up for a little while.
I have a 12000btu ac.
Once in five minutes sound like a easy target to hit. I have read where people say 5 times in one minute and even more.
Thanks for coming along ET!

 

[resinryder]

I apologize bro. I seriously though I was reading ebb and flow. That throws out everything I was saying about the system because I misread. Sorry bout that.
Looks like everything else is good except the ppm strength of the nute mix and your drainage back to the controller. Get those 2 where they should be and you should see a difference on your plants. Because of the high ppms, I'd cut the nute strength back to around 840ppm or so. This will give them nutes, although at a lower rate, while at the same time pulling some of the higher levels out. This should help to repair the damage that has been done and get you through the bloom phase to a point that you can heal them and raise the ppms a bit further. I'm really thinking the high ppm has been your problem. Both contain White Widow in their genetic make up which can be a finicky feeder.
Again, accept my apologies for misreading. rr

 

[EvilTwin]

I apologize bro. I seriously though I was reading ebb and flow. That throws out everything I was saying about the system because I misread. Sorry bout that.
Looks like everything else is good except the ppm strength of the nute mix and your drainage back to the controller. Get those 2 where they should be and you should see a difference on your plants. Because of the high ppms, I'd cut the nute strength back to around 840ppm or so. This will give them nutes, although at a lower rate, while at the same time pulling some of the higher levels out. This should help to repair the damage that has been done and get you through the bloom phase to a point that you can heal them and raise the ppms a bit further. I'm really thinking the high ppm has been your problem. Both contain White Widow in their genetic make up which can be a finicky feeder.
Again, accept my apologies for misreading. rr

RR,
It's a factory Ebb&Gro system...so you were correct.

We've also been having a conversation about him converting it to DWC after this grow. I was trying to talk him out of it. Sorry things got confusing.
ET

 

[resinryder]

Thanks ET. Yeah, as far a DWC I's stay away from it too as it takes up a lot of room for not many plants. DWC is an excellent growth system but I'd rather grow more plants in the room it takes to operate the DWC system.
So let me make sure I understand correctly. Are the pots, that are holding water on a flood table or are all the pots independent of each other and drain back to a central collection bucket?

 

[EvilTwin]

RR,
It's a system with separate pots using a controller to regulate the water level. His biggest issue was that the area he put it in wasn't level...controller too high, hence water left in each pot.
ET

 

[resinryder]

Got ya. Thanks ET. So pretty much the same as what I thought it was, just a different way of flooding and draining. Still think he's been feeding way too high!! Those leaves will get crisy in a heart beat at those levels, hehe

 

[GuerillaAk]

Thanks ET. Yeah, as far a DWC I's stay away from it too as it takes up a lot of room for not many plants. DWC is an excellent growth system but I'd rather grow more plants in the room it takes to operate the DWC system.
So let me make sure I understand correctly. Are the pots, that are holding water on a flood table or are all the pots independent of each other and drain back to a central collection bucket?

Hey RR. No need to apologize I figured you just got things mixed up along the way. I know you guys probably skim thru thread pretty quick trying to help as many people as possible. I may be wrong tho. Is all good.

I was running such hi ppms cuz I read in the famous ASK Lucas thread that when using GH Flora 8micro 16bloom per gallon that you could put freshly rooted clones straight in with no probs. It worked for awhile then the yellowing showed up knocking at my door. I tried not to answer but my lights were on and my car was in the driveway!<==Yellowing
There is another thing that I followed from him that didn't serve me too well. He said that as long as your PPM are not above 1400 you don't need to flush. I was running in coco and my run off was below 1400 so I didn't flush. Needless to say some of the bud turned out to taste like laundry detergent. He said he never flushes. But we were running different system thow. It was my own fault. Just cuz it worked for him doesn't necessary mean it will work for me.

As far as taking up too much room, what about trying to run a miniaturized version of the 5 gallon system with plants going straight into 12/12 or having a small veg period. I have 24 pots In basically and 8x8 area with a one foot flood dam going around. So possibly if I got a chiller and mad lids with smaller pots, maybe I could run it on the fill cycle to keep it full and put air diffusers in the bottom of each bucket. Time when the water start to get warm and set it to drain into the rez and fill back in 15 minutes. I know it may not be worth the trouble and I'm not considering doing it until I get this system down pat. Its just an idea anyways.
Maybe I will set it up and let the 2.5'' of water set in the bottom and put air diffusers in next time. Here is the system I have.

 

[GuerillaAk]

I am starting to wonder now if some of the troubles I have been having was caused by the oscillating fan set on high blowing straight on them. the worst looking two are the ones that were closest to the fans. Has anyone ever heard of this causing a problem?

 

[resinryder]

Fans can cause a problem. Always direct the main volume of air between the plant tops and the lights. Never have a fan blowing directly on them, especially on the high setting. The direct air will dry out the leaves.

 

[GuerillaAk]

This would explain why the once by the fan were the worst. leaves were dried out and curled down like rams horn. I had the fan set to blow above them but they got taller and I took to long to adjust the fan height. I know it is good to have the fan blow on them to strengthen the stalks but not for a long period of time.

 

[Anima]

lower PPM's to at least 1200 hanna scale(1100 would be better)
Flood every 4 hours for 15 mins.
I have a fan blowing on the bottom of my plants and it will dry em out like resin rider says... But I got it aimed at the bottom of the plant so it isn't that big of a deal.