Will 2014 be the last ICmag Cup in Amsterdam?

[Sativied]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]when in fact they have the lowest amount of under age cannabis users. they have a very low level of street crime thats drug related, on the whole they were leading the way in harm reduction from drug use[/FONT]

This is in the south of the country where tourists are banned from shops, shows nicely what happens when you close shops. Maastricht, a peaceful tourist town, become the nr 1 most criminal, unsafest city in the country.

[youtubeif]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqDN9Yqavno[/youtubeif]

The mayor of Maastricht, same party as the resigned MoJ, is being replaced too. Ironically, the previous mayor was the nr1 pro-legalization mayor.

We do have drugs related crime, not just cannabis. Much of that crime is of course a direct result from the war on drugs, but without legalization in the rest of europe and considering our relatively mild laws, we produce for a lot more than just for our own coffeeshops (10 times as much...).

While there obviously overall were benefits to the Dutch policy, nobody considers it 'the' solution. It can't be without growing and supplying being legal. And it's growing of cannabis we (UN, EU) agreed to fight. And it's there were we negotiated the 5 plant limit.

A few months ago a building with 22 thousand(!) cuttings was raided. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Olbi__tYP4I

Guys, groups like that, make a lot of money... and do anything to secure that income, which does lead to a lot of crime. Not violence on the streets with dealers per se, but like I said, things got out of hand.

The softdrugs policy, the coffeeshops, are all a result of Amsterdam getting flooded with heroine decades ago. That, and research from 1972 that showed hash/weed was less harmful than heroine and should be treated as tobacco and alcohol, is where the distinction of hard and softdrugs laws comes from and why shops were initially tolerated. That reason is no longer there. Legalizing cannabis for recreational use was not the intention. The youngsters aren't that much into cannabis anymore either, 60% of the people going out to clubs and parties in the weekend uses XTC and speed - which they (youngster political parties) want to legalize, XTC that is

A lot of the dutch cannabis situation over the past decades is not a result of drug laws or policies. It's just something we did (see XTC use above). Laws and penalties are mild here in general, well, were anyway... It was never legal here and the only reason our policy looked so desirable is that it was so horrible in the rest of the world. We don't have a lot of crime in general, we don't have a lot of addicts and junkies in general. One could argue that if we never had coffeeshops in Maastricht those millions of cannabis-tourists wouldn't be there either, and those street dealers wouldn't be there as much either.

From the Dutch embassy in DC:
http://dc.the-netherlands.org/news/2015/02/marijuana-laws-and-policies.html

 

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Considering the Dutch have always made their fortunes on addictive substances, this is ridiculous. It was fine when the Dutch East India company sold tobacco, opium, coffee, chocolate, etc. and got the world hooked on addictive substances (drugs).

But weed is not addictive and there is NO REAL problem that they're trying to cure.

They're just dancing to the DEA's tune cause the DEA is losing its raison d'etre these days in the USA.

 

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One could argue that if we never had coffeeshops in Maastricht those millions of cannabis-tourists wouldn't be there either, and those street dealers wouldn't be there as much either.

I have to disagree with this statement. It's not like Holland is the source of all those hard drugs. They come in on ships thru Rotterdam from what I heard. So there would still be street dealers selling hard stuff to tourists and locals alike, even if cannabis was never decriminalized there.

Also, as I recall it was the Hell's Angels who were distributing all these hard drugs thru Holland and elsewhere. They've been around a long time.

 

[Sativied]

So there would still be street dealers selling hard stuff to tourists and locals alike, even if cannabis was never decriminalized there.

Like I specifically said, there wouldn't be as many (well, I see I said 'much'...). Not nearly as many. Those drugs imported through Rotterdam (coke and heroine and whatnot) is not what attracted those millions of 'cannabis-tourists' to Maastricht in the outer corner of the south far from Rotterdam and pretty much in belgium.

Close shops and you get dealers who not only deal cannabis but also push hard drugs. You assume those hard drugs would be there anyway, which is only true to a small extend. The market wouldn't be nearly as large, that's factually a result of those coffeeshops being in those border cities and not being in the countries bordering them.

It simply doesn't work (for a small country like NL that depends on export and diplomatic relations) if surrounding countries don't legalize too. Especially since the borders in the EU opened and the euro... It's not like I blame any tourist for going to coffeeshops, it's a logical result.

Colorado is already running into similar resistance from neighboring states.

And while motorcycle clubs/gangs play a mayor role, they aren't the ones who attracted millions of cannabis tourists to coffeeshops.

Oh and you forgot Heineken.

 

[gaiusmarius]

you don't get it, the trouble is caused by them tightening the laws, yes that includes neighboring countries. but the tighter the laws the higher the price the bigger the profit and the more criminal the organizations that grow to supply the market become. it's very simple and easy to understand. Holland could have continued as the pioneer of sensible drug policy, instead they let them selves be pressured to make it so you can hardly grow anymore as an average guy in NL. the solution is not more laws and higher prices, it's the opposite. if they want less drug crime them loosen the laws, let people produce the buds without risking so much, as soon as there is a glut in the market the worst criminal elements will leave the bis as they like having high profit margins. never let them fool you into thinking cannabis or cannabis users are the problem. it's the draconian laws that have led to where we are now. make the weed cheap like any other produce, taxed like anything else and bang no more high profitability equals no more criminals interested in that business. ever seen criminals growing tomatoes or lets say tobacco fields.

edited to add:

why do you think the kids are not interested in cannabis anymore in Holland, but they are everywhere else? it's because it's nothing special in their minds, they know they can go in a coffee shop when they are 18, so no big deal, no adventure, no shocking their parents, it's old news. thats why the coffee shop system for all it's faults was good. it reduced the number of kids getting into drugs early. you guys don't realize how good you have it. hardly any street crime, why cause you give junkies their doses. so sad how the eu regulations are stopping countries having the right to make their own policies anymore. the brave and logical step they took with allowing coffee shops could never happen now anymore. unless the whole eu takes the step. we still have huge lobbies who are all for prohibition of cannabis, they have a lot to lose if the benefits to society become widely known.

 

[Sativied]

Oh I get it... It's not I who's lacking perspective about the dutch situation, after all I actually experienced it over the decades. From buying cannabis from home dealers, to selling it on beaches and working in a coffeeshop. From going to the first ever grow shop to not being able to buy a HPS locally.

I said "one could argue". Apparently this is not the place. You're barking up the wrong tree really. Too many false assumptions ("you guys...", "never let them"), too far grabbed out of context (coffeeshops in maastricht and similar border towns) and too many strawmens in your reply to dignify.

Well except for one: we never had a sensible drug policy. Just as we don't walk on wooden shoes...

 

[Sativied]

I genuinely hope if you ever come in the same position you talk about so easily, and blame on the all the dutch and even growers/users' ignorance or ungratefulness you'll have learned to respond to and deal with valid arguments the opposing side can and will make. It'll be a lot more constructive than repeating pro-cannabis rhetoric.

It's a fact those coffeeshops attracted millions of tourists who otherwise simply wouldn't go there. They can buy coke and w/e in their own country, a wide selection of cannabis however not.
It's a fact those millions of tourists resulted in a huge market.
It's a fact closing those shops, or banning tourists, leads to coffeeshops being replaced with street dealers who deal more than cannabis.
It's a valid logical conclusion that if those coffeeshops wouldn't have allowed tourists in the first place, or simply wouldn't exists, those millions of tourists nor all those street dealers catering them would be there. I've been to Maastricht several times at a time I couldn't even find a coffeeshop...


Not all street crime is drugs related, our low crime rates are not just a result of "giving junkies what they need". Dutch junkies don't buy from streetdealers in maastricht... or amsterdam. Street dealers here exist for tourists. Tourists who factually came here (in maastricht anyways, obviously people go to amsterdam for many reasons) for coffeeshops.

"Holland could have continued as the pioneer of sensible drug policy" You make it sound like we had a choice in the matter, yet you seem to understand that's not the case:

"The brave and logical step they took with allowing coffee shops could never happen now anymore. unless the whole eu takes the step"

Maybe it's hard to realize after romanticizing the dutch policy and amsterdam, but besides the more greedy growers, everyone agrees here, coffeeshops, growers, users, pro- and anti-pot parties that the dutch policy failed. You assume to know that we don't realize how good we have it but refuse to see the downsides of our anything but sensible policy (use is decriminalized, sale by licensed shops is legal, supply is not, growing is not, concentrates are considered hard drugs). Tell that to the people buying poisoned mj, the people being forced/blackmailed to grow (by amongst others nut jobs from east europe), the coffeeshops who can't normally buy mj with all sort of resulting problems. Can no longer buy from many small happy grow hippies but have to deal with shady folks, you know, the guns carrying type that deals in more than cannabis. Those are complaints from coffeeshop owners, growers, and users.

The dutch softdrug policy is by itself not responsible for many of the successes, that has many other reasons. A mindset. Freedom, tolerance in general. Not letting tell others what to do attitude... That "brave step" was not made by politicians but people like the coffeeshop owner I worked for, selling zips from a hip bag, people smuggling hash to NL, and the known pioneers, of which some got arrested more than a couple of times. Our laws and penalties have always been relatively mild/low, after being arrested they just did it again and again and again. Just as we will continue to do.

It's a billion dollar unregulated illegal industry, of course that creates crime.

During the rave period in the 90s in NL XTC was condoned for similar reasons, up to last year we were the nr1 producer and exporter of XTC...

 

[gaiusmarius]

so whats so bad about ganjah tourists?

i'm telling you you don't know how good you have it when it comes to street crime.

but as for the people selling to coffee shops no longer being hippies, thats exactly what i was saying from the start. they have been making the rules stricter and stricter for the last 30 years. in that time prices have gone up risks increas and your average guy can no longer have an indoor grow. i wonder why only shady criminal mofos are doing it now? ring any bells? oh yes of course the more you criminalize something like this the worse the situation gets, the more you hunt growers with special units and shit, the more the growers turn into mafia like groups.

i don't know what you find so bad about the dutch system, many people would be happy to have it. even with it's imperfections.

it's so easy to fall for the false logic of the drug warriors about evil drugs destroying society, when in actual fact 90% of the damage caused to people is a result of leo.