Wider pots or more soil what do you think?

[Switcher56]

*SNIP

The amount of foliage is what increase rate of growth and potential yield, this is why Monstercropping creates such vigorous growing plants, multiple main shoots also means more total initial foliage meaning faster growth. Taking larger clones also grow faster after rooting because of the increased foliage size/amount.

Contrary to popular THEORY, after becoming rootbound the plant DOES NOT STOP GROWING, instead its water and nutrient requirements continue increasing exponentially proportionate to the amount of foliage, which is limited only by the amount of available light.

I only buy that in part. It is the fine feeder roots that are responsible for water and nutrient uptake. Consider the main roots as "miners" and in such, are searching for new water/nutrient source (to feed the massive canopy) You can't do two things at once. Although the plant will feed/drink to compensate for transpiration losses, the uptake is simply insufficient and hence why a plant becomes root bound, where canopy growth is largely halted in preference for establishing roots to feed/water the plant/tree (survival).

You can water and feed appropriately but, that plant/tree will eventually die (read severe root bound) due to the lack of the "required" fine fibrous feeder roots

 

[Switcher56]

*SNIP What jidoka is saying essentially is that (for example hydroponic nutrients) feeding at a strength of 1.0 ec is not the same when switching to a different nutrient brand.

If you try feeding higher or lower strength of the new nutrient to reach a specific ec level that worked well with the old brand, you begin adding too much or too little of what the plant actually needs.

I believe he was referencing "quality feed" vs EC. Not all ferts are created equal. Eating a balance meal will provide you with better/more sustainable energy compared to eating a greasy cheeseburger

 

[Switcher56]

I'm digging the discussion. I think delta9nsx has similar ideas about shallow but wider footprint root systems in his newr ppk threads. I've had some of my best yields in 4×8 by 12" deep coco beds. I was hitting about 2lbs per light with 16-25 clones with a week or two veg, scrogged. I'll be lurking and learning.

In general a shallow pot will hold more water/nutrients without causing an over abundance of water in the root zone. Not only that, the lateral "fine feeder roots" cover a greater surface area, rendering the whole process more efficient.

For those in doubt... a simple test:

• Get a 3x5" sponge;
• saturate and rest it on its thickness (usually 3/4") on an oven great over the sink;
• when it has stopped draining, turn it on its edge;
• wow! see all that water come out; now
• place the sponge on it length. Wow! still a ton of water in there.

It could argued that with all the moisture contained in a shallow pot that the roots would remain flooded. Not so Proper substrate design and container size should be commensurate so that the plant is watered/fed once a day, with sufficient liquid remaining to slowly evaporate as needed during that day. Some folks like to water at night. I don't = longer period of roots sitting in water for the lack of a batter word. Nobody likes to water every day, so design your soil so that you are watering every 2nd day or 3rd at most W D D F D D W

 

[Switcher56]

*SNIP
Also roots want to grow out more then down. Clones even more so then seeds. They will eventually fill all their root space but really only when they run out of lateral space.

Unequivocally correct

One can gingerly remove the tap root during the repot from a 4" pot or beer cup during the repot to a larger pot. Your plants will love you for it. That and a combination of using air/fabric pots. IMMHO the haters of these pots don't fully comprehend their design and purpose. To air prune and provide a moist environment to grow in. Furthermore, them fibrous roots are 100 times more efficient in delivering what the plant needs. I will take lateral growth over vertical growth (root zone) any day of the week and twice on Sunday

Warning! Don't try this at home unless you know what you are doing. The tap root sole mission besides searching for water is to anchor the plant/tree.

 

[Ibechillin]

You can water and feed appropriately but, that plant/tree will eventually die (read severe root bound) due to the lack of the "required" fine fibrous feeder roots

Im not recommending keeping them eternally bound haha, but within reasonable time frames.

This is From post #10:

"Pot size is nearly irrelevant to harvest weights as long as the plant has ample roots to uptake nessacary amounts of water & nutes , rootbound isnt an issue to worry about with plants who's life expectancy is 4 or 5 months , when i grew in soil i used 1.5 quart pots & set up a drip watering system , i was growing 4 to 5 ft tall bushes out of 1.5 quart pots , yeild will be based on useable light as long as the little pots supply adequate water & nutes, hence my using a drip feed on constant drip, my harvests were allways nearly a gram per watt , in the style of mediumless flood n drain aeroponics ive been running the last few yrs im hitting from 1& 1/4 to 1 & 1/2 grams per watt ."

I believe he was referencing "quality feed" vs EC. Not all ferts are created equal. Eating a balance meal will provide you with better/more sustainable energy compared to eating a greasy cheeseburger

Intention was to get that point across exactly here:

What jidoka is saying essentially is that (for example hydroponic nutrients) feeding at a strength of 1.0 ec is not the same when switching to a different nutrient brand.

Ie: one nutrient formula is the cheeseburger formula and the other is jidoka's ratios.

In general a shallow pot will hold more water/nutrients without causing an over abundance of water in the root zone. Not only that, the lateral "fine feeder roots" cover a greater surface area, rendering the whole process more efficient.

For those in doubt... a simple test:

• Get a 3x5" sponge;
• saturate and rest it on its thickness (usually 3/4") on an oven great over the sink;
• when it has stopped draining, turn it on its edge;
• wow! see all that water come out; now
• place the sponge on it length. Wow! still a ton of water in there.

It could argued that with all the moisture contained in a shallow pot that the roots would remain flooded. Not so Proper substrate design and container size should be commensurate so that the plant is watered/fed once a day, with sufficient liquid remaining to slowly evaporate as needed during that day. Some folks like to water at night. I don't = longer period of roots sitting in water for the lack of a batter word.

Yeah, the point of the breathable pots is encourage root pruning and transpiration of the media from the sides to counteract the chance of becoming stagnant. Absolute best time would be right before sunrise when the plants metabolism turn on. I wouldn't recommend watering at night either as plants stomata are closed (takes in co2 releases oxygen and water) and the roots are definitely sitting in stagnant water.

Nobody likes to water every day

Im a freak of nature. Appreciate the feedback, thanks.

 

[farmerlion]

Post #10 was very helpful. Thank you
Peace

 

[Ibechillin]

Information on Origins Of Cannabis:

This is what i have gathered, Sam_Skunkman should be able to clarify any errors.

Sativa = Hemp

Indica = Drug

Where did cannabis originate?

Source:
https://www.alchimiaweb.com/blogen/history-cultivation-cannabis/#more-4652

"Mankind and cannabis have maintained a close relationship throughout the History. Although scientific and archaeological evidence allows us to estimate the date and place where it originated, it is difficult to establish its exact place – and time – of origin.

Different researchers have proposed three possible places of origin of the cannabis plant:

China: Along the Yellow and the Yangtze Rivers (Li 1974b). The first remains of the use of hemp have been found in China in the form of a fiber, as well as the oldest paper sample of the history, which also contains cannabis fibers. Some of the earliest records of the use of hemp also come from this country. It has been found that ancient Chinese treatises of medicine already distinguished between ‘ma fen’ (psychoactive seed) and ‘ma tze’ (non-psychoactive seed).

Central Asia: From the Caucasus to the Altai Mountains (De Candolle 1882). The neighboring region to the Takla Makan desert has been proposed as the birthplace of this plant, since from there it could have easily spread into three directions: East towards China, South to India and West towards Europe. Vavilov (1931) suggests that cannabis might have its origin in the northern part of Afghanistan and the Hindu Kush mountains.

South Asia: Along the foothills of the Himalayas and the Hindu Kush mountains (Sharma, 1979). The great diversity of varieties and uses of cannabis in this area makes of this a more than likely area of origin of this plant. According to Linnaeus, Cannabis Sativa would come from India.

Be that as it may, we observe that, in spite of the difficulty of locating the exact origin of cannabis, it seems clear that it comes from Asia and that from this area it then spread to the rest of the world mainly thanks to the various trade routes and successive invasions. Evidence seems to indicate that it was in China and India where cannabis was first grown by humans.

When did cannabis originate?
There are several paleo botanical evidence of hemp found in dated archaeological contexts: cannabis seeds, pollen grains, fibers, prints, etc. It isn’t hard to find evidence of the different uses given to hemp in China during the period between 6,000-8,000 BC. Researchers suggest that cannabis was one of the first plant species to be grown in a controlled manner by humans, an activity that was initiated around 10,000-12. 000BC.

We also have indicators of the use of cannabis oil and seeds as food in the year 6000 BC, also of its use as fiber to make textile products already in the year 4000AC.

It seems that Chinese emperor Fu Hsi (2,900AC) had already made mention of the Ma (chinese word for cannabis) as medicine, but it isn’t until 2.737BC when we find the first written register on the medicinal use of cannabis within the pharmacopoeia of Shen Nung, one of the fathers of the Chinese traditional medicine.

The evolution of cannabis cultivation
As we have seen, our beloved plant has been grown ever since humans started farming. Its first uses were primarily as food, although ancient people also took advantage of both its fibres – for the production of cloth – and its medicinal properties to alleviate their ailments.

Through the centuries and from Asia, cannabis spread to the middle East (the Scythians brought it to this area around the year 2. 000BC spreading it into Russia, while Zoroaster already classified it as the most important between 10,000 medicinal plants in the year 700BC) and from there into Africa (around the year 700) and Europe. In 1150 the Muslims built the first paper mill in Europe; most of the paper manufactured over the next 850 years was made of cannabis.

During the XVI century the Spaniards took cannabis to Chile (1545) and Peru (1554), while in the following century the Britons spread it to Canada and began farming it in Virginia. It soon became an essential cornerstone of the economy in the American colonies during centuries.

In 1753, Carl Linnaeus classified hemp as Cannabis Sativa L. whereas in 1783 Jean-Baptiste Lamarck added a second species, Cannabis Indica. A third species, less common than the previous ones, was classified by Russian botanist D.E. Janischevisky as Cannabis Ruderalis in 1924.

Approximately in the decade of the Great Depression (1930), the war against marijuana was started in the United States, with absurd examples such as the famous film Reefer Madness (1936) or the first detention for the sale of cannabis in the history of the country (Samuel R. Caldwell, on October 2, 1937). In 1942, cannabis was excluded from the American pharmacopoeia and the medical use of marijuana was no longer recognized throughout the territory of the United States. From here, the number of countries in which this plant was outlawed skyrocketed, in proportion to the requests of many companies related to health and medicine to stop these policies.

This hard bargaining continued for years; in 1964, Doctor Raphael Mechoulam – professor of Medicinal Chemistry at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem – became the first one to identify THC as the main psychoactive component of cannabis. He was also the first one to synthesize it. A few years later, on June 17th 1971, President Richard Nixon declared the socalled War on drugs, which he extended across the whole planet.

Until our days, in which we are living an true green revolution at a global level, one of the only countries which came out in defense of the cannabis of marijuana was the Netherlands, which decriminalized cannabis in 1976 creating a network of Coffee-Shops that still supplies customers today, although being increasingly controlled and restricted by the government."



Quote Below Posted 4/12/2018

all drug varieties are Indica, be they WLD, or NLD, while the effects are very different depending on terpene profile and %'s.
Some people prefer the Narcotic, physical effects of Afghan WLD varieties while others prefer the soaring up, clear, psychedelic high of NLD tropical varieties
-Sams

Quote Below Posted 7/5/2018

This week I saw a new presentation by Dr John McPartland at the ICRS and he lists many samples found around the world that were even older then 1,000,000 years old.
None were found in the Americas that were older then 1492

-SamS

Quote Below Posted 7/10/ 2018

If you get a chance to watch the Power Point slide presentation do it, I saw it at the ICRS in Leiden last week.

"The native range of Cannabis sativa and its center of origin in Asia, primarily based on fossil pollen data" by Dr John McPartland

Strains developed their distinct growth characteristics and variations in leaf size, leaf pigment, bud shape/density and cannibinoid profiles depending on geographical origin.

A group of plants native to an area breed, then their offspring breed for generations adapting more and more to the environment they live in. Each generation giving less variation to the genepool isolating traits, and making them less tolerable to environmental uncertainty.

This is also why breeders advertise some seeds "for indoor" cultivation. After many generations of breeding and living in a consistent environment, the plants become less prepared for change. Versus unadulterated landrace genetics that have endured the unpredictable outdoor weather for thousands of years and happily welcome it.

Ok. has anyone noticed the difference in plants when compared to being grown inside vs. out?
For example, the PCK plants I have indoors put out much narrower leaves compared to the outdoor plants. They look like different plants even though they are clones from the same mother.

From Royal Queen Seeds:

GENOTYPE, ENVIRONMENT, PHENOTYPE

Every living organism is the result of evolution that works by the same basic principle. The genotype or genetic code carries all the genetic information regarding growth, appearance, and all the characteristics we can later observe.

It’s crucial to understand that a genotype or genetic code is not something that is set in stone but rather defines a certain range of possibilities. It mainly depends on the environment the organism lives in what specific bits and pieces of the genotype will be activated.

The interaction between genotype and environment results in a phenotype, meaning the physical expression of certain genes the environment triggered.

genotype (G) + environment (E) + genotype and environment interactions (GE) = phenotype (P)

QUICK EXAMPLE: PURPLE STRAINS

Let’s examine a cannabis related example to get a better idea. You purchase seeds from a reputable breeder and intend to grow a purple strain.

Instead of growing all plants in your indoor grow tent, you’ll decide on moving half of your plants outdoors. Besides the fact that no plant seems to be identical to one another, you’ll notice that the plants in your outdoor garden are much richer in purple colours compared to the ones in your indoor grow tent.

Although the genotype carries the information to produce purple hues, it’s the environment, and in this particular case, the temperatures of the environment, that allow two different physical expressions (phenotypes) from seemingly the same genetic code (genotype).

if you’re aiming for maximum efficiency and consistency, your best option is to select a mother plant to take clones from. These clones copy the genotype of the mother plant 1:1 and you’ll continuously end up with the same phenotype assuming a constant environment.

Let’s say you grow one of these identical clones using a hydro set-up, and one in organic soil. This varying environment might result in different phenotypes of the same genotype.

End quote from Royal Queen Seeds

I am glad you brought the fact that environment affects phenotype.

When I switched on CO2 and my new spot three strains changed so much they are almost un recognisable. Sour Diesel changed the most. Fat maple like leaves have gone super sativa skinny.

I noticed this on my blue cheese plant outdoors also, its an 80% indica.

When i first put it out it was overcast skies the first like 2 weeks and the plant grew thick fat 9 bladed leaves bigger than my head all over.

When the weather started clearing up i began defoliating and topping it. The plants new leaves are all these like hybrid leaves in between indica and sativa now. The older leaves on the bottom are still fat thick indica leaves, but all the new growth took on a different type more sativa in growth.

 

[Noonin NorCal]

wider is better then deeper, i didn't read the whole post but just answering the topic question

 

[Ibechillin]

All About Kelp:

Ascophyllum nodosum is the typically recommended kelp to use for plants, but its not that simple. Theres no way of knowing whats really in a kelp product other than the type of kelp and extraction process used, which could end up doing more harm than good in the long run if the auxin/cytokynin levels are unknown.

I dont recommend using anything other than the recommendations Slownickel (icmag's helpful agronomist) provides which are Seacrop 16 and Kelpack.

Be careful when buying seaweeds. There are good ones and ones that have little value. Also, where to apply them and when is an issue.

For example, applying a cytokinin to the roots will actually tend to stall the plants. Roots get lazy. Always apply cytokinin seaweeds foliarly. Small quantities constantly and mixed with other foliars. The best cytokinin source on the market is North American Kelp, Seacrop 16. It has the highest guaranteed cytokinin level on the planet, 400ppms. This should be used from veg up through week 3 of flower.

For root applications, you really want to use an auxin seaweed source. So far, the only one that I have been able to find in the US is Kelpak. This applied to roots and foliage, forces more roots. Don't use it after week 1 of flower. All through veg is great.

We did side by side tests. Been through the bunch, Acadian, Maxi, SM6 (UK) and a few I can't remember. many folk won't get a lot of response from a good seaweed product if they really don't have their nutrition dialed in. That means having enough Ca and P most times. Most folk don't. All the seaweed in the world can't get you past the big problems. This is why many say, oh, tried it and I didn't see much. But that can also come from low hormone content. Many seaweed products aren't actually made for fertilizer use

 

[BMISS genetics]

More good info..... thanks, ibechillin...

 

[Ibechillin]

No problem, this thread is kind of messy compared to the others...haha.

 

[master kusher]

I think you should ditch the pots if you can, instead 5 by 5 feet tilled (manually, or by machine) and amended.

 

[Dog Star]

Pots doesnt need to be too much deep imo,specialy if you repot plant in a way
that 1/3 is araised over new medium,a way B.O.G. growed his plants,
you could sees roots uncovered after many waterings as medium will
wash down and it will give them more air around roots,also stronger
roots in their base...

 

[f-e]

When taking field samples for laboratory analysis, there are two depths of core sample to choose between. Depending on what you grow. The deepest of which is a 150mm core. That's 6" if you havn't caught up.

I imagine, that any plant growing root off into the unknown, must be struggling. My plants will send off smaller one's all over the place, but the big tree like one's head outwards through the better surface soil. Perhaps doing better, because they're the ones who found food.

I see the chap who dug the deep holes found they just didn't use it, or show any real desire to go in any direction. They just spread out.

When you nip a plant, it often finds a new choice of main head. Or a couple. To get more requires training. I think this is akin to the roots of seeds and cuttings. If I wash off a cutting, it has one main root with laterals coming off it. Just like a tap root. Though I only think about it now, I feel there is some correlation between single stem like plants having a main root, and heavily branching plants having a root system that reflects this. It's perhaps unrealistic to expect any different. Though It's not something I have need to examine. Roots just seem to find the best place to go. Reflecting the plant shape above, if unhindered.


A visual site survey will usually tell me the depth of soil available and the availability of moisture. Then I can look at the soil type, and the result is generally that the site has half of what I need already. So that saves me a lot of carrying. A small site previously wanting 200kg of compost a year, wanted about 20kg of correctly targeted amendments last year. Which is a typical result on the local clay and loam ground. That corrected the top 150mm of the whole site, rather than making a few new holes. This coming year I will only need replace what was used and washed away. This paragraph is really about 'why use pots anyway' as many are breaking their backs for no real reason. I don't even take a spade. I'm not lifting dirt. Just turning it, and breaking it up with a fork. Some people won't even do that, they just top dress. Which might be all you can do later in the year, so the root system needs to of been trained out laterally with food incentives.

Im not breaking any new ground here (Oh, the pun) it's farming practice developed by professionals.


I might use pots with the bottom chopped out in swamp land. It would drain too well where I am though. Buggering up availability, so needing bigger pots. While I still had to correct the land below, as my roots would head there, trained to do so by the pot. I have watched others locally with bemusement. Running about with water all the time, to get nothing I would want out of it come september.


Obviously I'm working a field away from home, and rarely with water on site. In a country where it's not legal. Which hems me in somewhat. I can't buy 50L of nice per plant. Though I have done for a few, just to enrich my experience. Constantly looking for the best results

 

[ramse]

it also depends on the irrigation system used... if you use very deep vessels, you should use something like this to encourage deep root development

.........
ROOT ECOLOGY
Root ecology is a key to the success of wild hemp, as revealed by Haney and Kutscheid’s (1975)
study of wild Illinois hemp. Root development is conditioned by soil texture, compaction, and moisture content. In coarse textured, well-drained, deep soils, a main taproot develops, with slim
lateral branches (Figure 3.10a). The taproot can extend more than 2 m down, allowing access to a
low water table. In medium-textured, moderately water-retentive soils, the primary root develops
to a depth of about 1 m, with extensive laterals concentrated in two locations: near the surface and
at about 1 m (Figure 3.10c), a bet-hedging strategy enabling acquisition of both surface and moderately deep water. If the water table is near the surface (generally undesirable for good growth of C.*sativa), the root system is shallow (Figure 3.10b). Particularly in very moist soils, considerable
lateral branches develop near the top, so much so that the root system may appear to be fibrous
rather than tap-rooted. Similarly, when grown in pots, the ability to develop a long tap root is constrained, and the root system becomes highly branched.
Symbiotic relationships of the roots and fungi are often beneficial for plants. The vesicular-arbuscular
mycorrhizal fungus Glomus mosseae (Nic. & Gerd.) Gerd. & Trappe has been recorded on Cannabis
(McPartland and Cubeta 1997). The ecology of symbiotic microorganisms associated with Cannabis has scarcely been examined. (See entries regarding symbiotic bacteria associated with the roots of Cannabis, in “Curiosities of Science, Technology, and Human Behavior” in this chapter and in Chapter 18.)

take a look at this study:
Characterisation of hemp (Cannabis sativa L.) roots
under different growing conditions

PDF direct link: https://www.votehemp.com/characterisation_of_hemp_cannabis_sativa_roots_under_different_growing_conditions/

https://www.votehemp.com/?s=Root

 

[Ibechillin]

Did you read post #31 Ramse? That study you linked was done on only one strain of hemp called futura 75... Root structure is a genetic inheritance and environment affects how it expresses.

 

[ramse]

Did you read post #31 Ramse? That study you linked was done on only one strain of hemp called futura 75... Root structure is a genetic inheritance and environment affects how it expresses.

I found it interesting anyway...

yes the futura 75 is one of the many "certified eu" cultivars, in Europe is also cultivated for inflorescences (high CBD)

the influence of the environment... the picture above seems to me quite significant... the caption is blurred. Repost: "Root systems of C. sativa. (a) A deep tap root developed in friable soil with a low water
table. (b) A shallow root system with well-developed lateral fibrous roots, exemplifying roots produced in
substrates with high water tables or compacted soil. The 10-cm scale applies to both (a) and (b). (c) Vertical
profile of root system in a sandy-loamy soil in a hemp field in Klagenfurt, Austria. Notice the two distinctive
root development zones, one near the surface, with some roots growing quite deeply. From Kuchera, L., Root
Atlas of Central European Arable Weeds and Crops, DLG Verl.-Ges, Frankfurt am Main, Germany, 1960
(in*German) (CC BY SA 2.5)."