Wider pots or more soil what do you think?

[Ibechillin]

Please read all of the thread before commenting!

ive seen alot of people mention wider is better when it comes to pots, and some people say just use bigger holes/pots with more soil and want to hear what peoples experiences have been. From what I understand feeder roots reside in the top 12" of the soil and travel outward. So is there really any reason to plant in a taller container if i can watch them and feed/water as they need it?

Im using a 100 gallon fabric pot now 38" diameter and 20" tall. Wanted to get some thoughts/opinions on using the Big Bad Beds vs doubling my expenses using 200 gallon pots next season?

200 gallon smart pot is 50" diameter and 24" tall. Uses double the soil, double the nutrients and water.
Big Bad Beds, they are 50" diameter and 12" tall and hold 100 gallons of soil.

 

[FizzyB]

Whatever you choose, consider making raised beds or just slicing up the bottom of your pots to allow your roots to grow beneath the container. Best of both worlds!

 

[Limeygreen]

twelve inches will dry out faster than 24 inch and then be more susceptible to being blow around in the wind which would put more stress on the root system. I would go no less than 24 inches but wide, the wider you go you should have so more depth, 36 inches would be the deepest you should need to go.

 

[aridbud]

Depth and width make a difference.

 

[pumpkinpie eyes]

Yessir! Got plant pouches on eBay. 7 & 15 gal fer autos and 50 gallon photos.

 

[Ibechillin]

Update:

Source: https://www.grassrootsfabricpots.com/shorty-soil-saver/

"So, it turns out that the root system of cloned plants primarily grow outward instead of downward because of the absence of a taproot. Our expert clone-growing friends have said that there could be a need for more top-dressing in a Shorty, but that is a great opportunity for more nutrients for the thirsty plants.

If you’re converting from a Classic Pot style, match the size of your pot base diameter rather than the gallon size. For example, if you’re used to using a 100 gallon pot, convert to a 65 gallon Shorty Soil Saver™."

30 gallon shorty 30" wide by 10" tall
45 gallon shorty 32" wide by 14" tall
65 gallon shorty 38" wide by 14" tall
100 gallon shorty 45" wide by 14" tall
200 gallon shorty 65" wide by 14" tall
300 gallon shorty 80" wide by 14" tall
400 gallon shorty 87" wide by 16" tall

My 100 gallon pot is 38" wide and 20" tall, a 65 gallon shorty would be 38" wide and 14" tall, could just fill larger pots ~halfway if you already have them.

allow your roots to grow beneath the container. Best of both worlds!

^this would probably work well with the shorter and wider pots.

 

[Lester Beans]

The bigger the better. I prefer deep over wide.

Check out Motherlode Gardens thread. The way Schrews grows yields amazing results.

 

[Bigbruce]

I bought some cheap 15gal smart pots from the dollar store and they are much wider than tall and I don't think I would use them for weed, just too shallow. I wouldn't want a height less than 12".

 

[redheadfreakin]

Shallow is where it's at.
4 inches, baby! (see 4 inch rule)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XvQqYQX9Qw

 

[Ibechillin]

Shcrews 15-20lbs plants in 1000 gallon soil mounds are some of the largest/highest yielding individual trees/plants ive seen, but that style of growing does not work for everybody, lol.

(Im referencing fabric pots during this explanation because there are alot of threads easily found by searching, discussing the yields in them and it gives standard to the dimensions and soil usage. What i explain here can easily be verified by google searching the topics i discuss here and reading threads from the various grow forums going back close to 20 years. I have done a considerable amount of research in reference to digging different dimension holes outdoors and yields as well, it also correlates closely with my findings.

Shcrews as an example:

15lbs = 240 oz ÷ 1000 gallons of soil = 0.24 oz per gallon of soil.
20 lbs = 320 oz ÷ 1000 gallons of soil = 0.32 oz per gallon of soil.

In my experience/research ive settled on 1 oz per gallon of soil as a reasonable average up to a 65 gallon fabric pot 32" wide by 18" tall. From sizes bigger ive noticed rapidly diminishing oz per gallon of soil yield returns.

Its not uncommon for growers to claim yeilding 4lbs out of a 65 gallon fabric pot.

4lbs = 64 oz ÷ 65 gallon = 0.98 oz per gallon

I have also found quite a few claims over 1 oz per gallon of soil, highest claim was "over 7lbs Blue Dream" from a 65 gallon fabric pot watered everyday.

5lbs = 80 oz ÷ 65 gallon = 1.23 oz per gallon
7lbs = 112 oz ÷ 65 gallon = 1.72 oz per gallon

Fabric Pot Dimensions:

65 gallon 32" wide by 18" tall
100 gallon 38" wide by 20" tall
200 gallon 50" wide by 24" tall
300 gallon 60" wide by 24" tall
400 gallon 70" wide by 24" tall

The notable variables that change between 65 gallon and larger fabric pots:

1. Considerably wider, up to 218%

2. Minimal change in height, no change in height after 200 gallons size. Only 25% taller over an increase of up to 6x the soil volume!

Shorty Soil Saver Fabric Pot Dimensions:

65 gallon shorty 38" wide by 14" tall
100 gallon shorty 45" wide by 14" tall
200 gallon shorty 65" wide by 14" tall
300 gallon shorty 80" wide by 14" tall
400 gallon shorty 87" wide by 16" tall

The notable variables that change between 65 gallon and larger Shorty Soil Saver fabric pots:

1. Considerably wider, up to 228.9%

2. No change in height until 400 gallon, even then only 14% taller over an increase up to 6x the soil volume!

Fabric pots are typically a bit taller then the advertised size and filled to the brim typically hold more soil than their advertised gallon size. The best efficiency in terms of oz per gallon of soil yield from seedlings or clones seems to be at a max root depth of 14-16".

Oxygen At The Rootzone, Finding The Balance Of Water & Feed Strength, PH To Maximize Yield:

Pot size is nearly irrelevant to harvest weights as long as the plant has ample roots to uptake nessacary amounts of water & nutes , rootbound isnt an issue to worry about with plants who's life expectancy is 4 or 5 months , when i grew in soil i used 1.5 quart pots & set up a drip watering system , i was growing 4 to 5 ft tall bushes out of 1.5 quart pots , yeild will be based on useable light as long as the little pots supply adequate water & nutes, hence my using a drip feed on constant drip, my harvests were allways nearly a gram per watt , in the style of mediumless flood n drain aeroponics ive been running the last few yrs im hitting from 1& 1/4 to 1 & 1/2 grams per watt.

^source: A moderator on rollitup.
https://www.rollitup.org/t/who-grows-in-smaller-pots-than-5-gallon.815675/

Cannabis roots love an alternating wet then dry cycle to maintain optimal oxygen levels in the root zone along with water and nutrients to maximize photosynthesis. This is why fabric pots were created, to increase oxygen at the rootzone. The fabric pot's sides can breathe and transpire to supply constant oxygen and help combat against over watering. The more drainage material you use (like perlite) reduces water holding capacity in your soil mix, also helping to combat against over watering and allowing for additional waterings/more dissolved oxygen.

When you water your plants the moving water also carries dissolved oxygen that the roots can readily absorb. Watering daily in the morning or multiple times a day creates growth rates hard to believe due to the constant re addition of oxygen at the roots when done correctly.

Oxygen at the rootzone is one of the main differences in the rapid growth in hydroponics and passive hydro like coco coir.

Over watering prevents oxygen from getting to the roots which is the worst enemy to a cannabis plant, it NEEDS oxygen at the roots to stay productive.

A good way to think of water being added to and transpiring from cannabis plants is like traffic on the freeway, you want it coming and going both ways 70mph, over and under watering is like a traffic jam that stops both directions of travel until the wreck is dealt with. The key is to find the balance between the right amount of water the plant is drinking at its current size and the max feed strength it can tolerate, then steadily increasing both over time.(irrigation keep sounding better and better right?)

People have amazing results hand watering coco coir plants drain to waste until totally rootbound in small pots and then hooking them up to irrigation.

The other main differences in the rapid growth from hydroponics and passive hydro like coco coir is maintaining optimal PH and soil biology for nutrient availability:

"Synthetic"/"Hydroponic" fertilizers contain the elements plants need in water soluble pure ionic forms available immediately for uptake, they can be used in both soil and hydroponic/soiless growing mediums. The fertilizer solution's PH must be adjusted to the correct level for the grow medium you are using before feeding!

For hydroponic/soiless growing mediums a PH fluctuating between 5.75 - 6.25 is ideal since not all nutrients are available at a one specific PH level. This chart demonstrates element availability at different PH levels for hydroponic/soiless growing mediums:

For soil growing a PH level anywhere between 6.25 and 7 is ideal for all nutrients to be available for uptake. This chart demonstrates element availability at different PH levels for soil growing mediums:

"Organic"/"Soil" fertilizers come in immediately available water soluble ionic forms, "slow release" unavailable forms and both forms at the same time. The plants roots only take up fertilizer in the pure ionic water soluble forms. The roots release acids called exudates and the beneficial bacteria along with the fungi in the soil help break down the unavailable "slow release" forms into the pure ionic water soluble forms that are available. (The beneficial bacteria and fungi digest the unavailable forms of the nutrients and excrete them into the available water soluble ionic forms, plants just cant get enough poo).

Even organic water soluble/liquid nutrients are only readily available to your plants if the PH is in the correct range. Organic nutrients are often fairly acidic PH naturally, or are made to be that way to prevent microbial activity for starting while they are on the shelf (think fish emulsion bottles going kaboom).

While you dont *have* to adjust the feed water PH for organic soil that has been buffered to maintain PH (such as when using dolomite lime) I still highly advise and recommend you to PH your feed water when growing in soil to avoid potential problems and maximize growth! When you add acidic feed solution to your PH buffered soil the soil PH drops until whatever is doing the buffering can raise it back up.

There are natural sources of PH Up and PH Down, many of which you can actually find around the house!

Organic "pH Down":

lime
lemon
vinegar
Earth Juice Natual PH Down (made from citric acid)

Organic "PH Up":

Earth Juice Natual PH Up (made from potassium bicarbonate, approved for organic)

hey Ulysses- im with you on the benefits of dolomite!

and the interests of getting this buffering/time thing nailed down I performed me a little experiment this morning.

I took a glass of water and put a tiny shot of my citric acid solution into it .
I measured the pH with my pen and it read 5.1.

(YES, I am an organic grower with a pH pen, part of a rebel alliance of heads that like to know the acidity of their water, the pHorce is strong within us – deal with it!)

I then took a half teaspoon of powdered dolomite lime and stirred it into the acidic water. Here is what happened to the pH :-
Original pH before addition of Dolomite = 5.1
1minute - pH had risen to 5.3
5 minutes – pH had risen to 5.8 – so within minutes we have a much more desirable pH plant-wise!
15 minutes – pH was 6.0 – doing its job nicely.
1 hr – pH was 6.3
2 hrs – pH is 6.4

ETA: 3 hrs - pH is 6.5
4hrs - pH is 6.6
5hrs - pH is 6.7
8hrs - pH is 6.9 - job pretty much done!

now I don’t claim that this experiment is mimicking the conditions in a pot perfectly, but I am very confident to conclude that powdered dolomite lime, well mixed into the soil, will do the job of buffering the pH of the soil possibly within minutes, certainly within hours of watering.

And bear in mind that the pH scale is logarithmic so a pH of 5 is many times more acidic than a pH of 6, and thus will react faster with the dolomite as can be seen in the experiment. As the pH gets nearer to 7 the buffering effect will slow down, but the pH is nearer what we desire anyway, and considering that the optimum availability pH for most macro and micro nutrients it between 6 and 7, the job that the dolomite is doing is, imo, exactly what we want from it.

Hope this helps.

May the pHorce be with you
V.

Conclusion:

Pots deeper than 16 inches take up more space than is justified by their yield. I want to attribute the difference with the larger pots to more difficulty maintaining optimum watering/feeding habits and conditions.

 

[heatherlonglee]

How many full gown plants pulled from a correctly sized pot; not shorty's, that don't have roots at the bottom? Why are you even talking like the roots don't get to the bottom? You're wrong move on from that premise.

I'd say use no shorter that 20" tall pots, taller more roots, more air! If the pots are going to sit right on the ground and you're going to let the roots go out the bottom? Probably doesn't matter.

 

[Ibechillin]

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[Stickybred420]

you see on the tube these massive 25 footers out in Oregon and Cali planted straight into the ground. the only way to grow a tree that size is unlimited root space. redwood trees probably have kilometer long taproots and that's probably an understatement. plants are like land icebergs. way more going on beneath the surface than meets the eye!

 

[wvkindbud38]

I really like the discussion....I used to read the old Tom Hill method on OG......that's what I used to do. I kinda liked a deeper style pot but I don't know there been a lot of research by many people and a lot more facts are coming out and I guess if you've tried something and it works don't change it right??? Or experiment on different things a lil that you've seen other people trying and see how it works. These forums have really opened things up and knowledge is spreading. I'm the guy that will do it my way...but I'm gonna try other things also especially when I see the research you guys have put into it. Thanks guys this is very interesting....if I can do something different to grow more bud damn right I'm gonna try it and give props to the guy I decided to try out his idea!!!

 

[Ibechillin]

Shallow is where it's at.
4 inches, baby! (see 4 inch rule)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XvQqYQX9Qw

Thanks! Awesome addition!

 

[heatherlonglee]

That video is trash! That old guy doesn't know how to get a point across and just mucked it all up. He has plants in taller containers than 4" on the stage! He uses a plant with a tall normal looking pot as example in the video! lol

Now what that old idiot is trying to say is that the tap root isn't needed and that you'll have better root structure using the 4" pot as the starter pot, then when you move to a larger pot and or plant the tree that he talks about growing back in the day; you'll have better roots from starting in the shortie 4". The milk cartons from his early years are to large for the plants that they showed growing in them; that proves nothing about the roots coming out bottom and top of soil no roots. Those 4" pots are smaller at the bottom and wider at the top, but dude acts like that has nothing do do with how the plants root better than the milk cartons. The shape of the containers allow for different drying of the pot.

Read the captions on the video! lol
"RootMaker propagation containers"
These are for starting plants not to grow a full tree! lol

 

[redheadfreakin]

^^^ Point missed completely.

 

[MedResearcher]

Many ways to skin a cat. What works well for some, doesn't work well for others.

That being said, you can grow a huge plant in a small medium with enough water and food. Imo, the growth can be more explosive with the frequent water/feed/wet dry cycles.

Fabric pots on top of pallets work very well, but require a lot of water/feed.

Whatever works well for you, or for your level of maintenance. For commercial production imo, I would rather use more smaller pots, with more frequent water/feed for several reasons.

I think those shallow smart pots are interesting, would be nice to see some side by sides. Possible a good middle ground between outdoor hydro and traditional soil.

Mr^^

 

[petert]

I used the 100 gallon shorty soil saver from grassroots. Last year. I should add I did NOT use them outside as I am in a very windy area. I used them in my green house. My Black Cherry Soda and Agent Orange averaged 8-11 feet. I was happy with them.

 

[Ibechillin]

got any pics!? ^haha just what this thread needed!