Why would I be having a hard time with ph in Ocean Forest soil?

[jonezin]

Can someone tell me what would be causing my ph issues in Fox Farms Ocean Forest soil? I add 20% perlite to it and I add very fine powdered dolomitic lime to it. When I water my plants I adjust the ph of the water (or nute mix if that's what I'm giving them) to 6.4 or 6.5.

I just checked the ph of this soil mix with one of those 3 way meters, the ones that measure moisture, light and ph. They say to mix it to a mud consistency then insert the probe into it and take the reading one minute later. After one minute it reads 6. I left it in there longer just because I forgot to take it out and after like 20 minutes it read 4. But you're not supposed to leave it in there that long anyway so I don't know if that means anything.

During the last grow I did I went and bought a ph pen. My runoff tested at 5.8-5.9. That was when I first started adjusting the ph of the water and nutrient mix that I give the plants. The last 2 grows I have been getting rust colored spots on my plants. Last time it got pretty bad. The smoke was awesome, but the yield wasn't that great. Especially on the plants that had this crap the worst.

Luckily the plants were ready at about 50 days. If I would have had a few more weeks to go the buds would have gotten screwed up from whatever this crap is.

I've had several people look at the pictures of my plants that have this and most of them say it is probably a ph issue. But why would I be having such a hard time with this when I ph the water and nutrient mix? Should I quit adding lime to the Fox Farm Ocean Forest? I added 1 1/2 cups of it to a 1.5 cubic foot bag of it recently. And the plants that I have in that mix are starting to get this problem again. That's the mix that I said reads 6 with my 3 way meter. I really can't understand why I'm having a problem with this when I'm adjusting the ph of everything I give them. I really need to get this figured out.

 

[bigjay]

maybe you are getting a salt build up. do you ever flush them? HOw long does it take to strt seeing the problems? are you starting from seed or clone? what and how much are u feeding and how often?

 

[ibjamming]

That's quite a bit of lime...that's probably your problem. Try a couple of teaspoons per gallon. Is there anything else you changed for the last 2 grows? Change them back.

 

[bigjay]

1.5 cf is about 20 gallons....btw those meters are junk imho

 

[MynameStitch]

I water my plants I adjust the ph of the water (or nute mix if that's what I'm giving them) to 6.4 or 6.5.

this is your problem, with lime being in the soil your soil should stay blanced as long as you don't slame them with a lot of ferts.

Stop pH adjusting it, the mixture is perfectly balanced pH wise and you should not have to tinker with it.

The meter thing sounds like a cheap knock off, what is this called?

You want accurate testing you collect the run off water after watering your plants and then you go from there.

I be having such a hard time with this when I ph the water and nutrient mix? Should I quit adding lime to the Fox Farm Ocean Forest? I added 1 1/2 cups of it to a 1.5 cubic foot bag of it recently. And the plants that I have in that mix are starting to get this problem again. That's the mix that I said reads 6 with my 3 way meter. I really can't understand why I'm having a problem with this when I'm adjusting the ph of everything I give them. I really need to get this figured out.

Stop pH adjusting anything, no water nothing in the soil except a little more lime if you want, but stop adjusting the water!!

How much did you pay for this 3 way?

What pH pen did you buy? Do you calbrate it often? have fresh solution if any?

How often do you feed your plants and what is the amount given to them and how often?

Over all you will have to flush your plants out with plain water that is NOT ph'ed, flush them with a lot . How big is your plants pot sizes determines how much water to use for each gallon size pot.

 

[jonezin]

I know the 3 way meter is a piece of shit. But according to their directions taking the reading at 1 minute like they said to read the same as the runoff did the one time I tested it. I didn't buy it to test ph anyway.

The pen is a Hannah Champ. I bought the ph pen so I could test the runoff mainly. And the runoff was 5.8-5.9. And yes I have calibration and storage solution. I calibrate it every time I use it. It gets stored in the storage solution.

So if you add lime to the soil you shouldn't adjust the ph of any liquids you give the plant? Won't adding acidic water/nutrients to the soil make it acidic itself?

I have tested the runoff. It reads 5.8-5.9.

I feed them every other watering. I give them half strength for a while then I might up it if they aren't getting nute burn. I only water about once a week until towards the end when they're using a lot more water.

Why do you say that I need to flush my plants? I just transplanted them into this soil. I have only given them one half strength dosage of the 5th week of Fox Farms feeding schedule when they were transplanted. That's the only nutrients they have ever had. The soil is fresh with lime and perlite only added to it.

If my ph is too acidic, why would I want to give them anything acidic? If I give them any nutrients without adjusting it the ph is too low. Should I not worry about it?

 

[jonezin]

How long has this problem been going on? Almost 3 weeks.
What STRAIN are you growing? Various: Whte Widow, Auroa Indica, Medusa, all tasty.
What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?)seeds
What is the age of your plants? 14 weeks overall 6 weeks into 12/12.
How Tall are the plants? 3.5' - 4.5'
What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? flowering
What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc) N/A
What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot) 3 gal
What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using?(percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?) FoxFarms Ocean Forest
What Nutrient's are you using?How much of each with how much water? How Often? *Knowing the brand is very helpful* Advanced Nutrients grow
trio 1.82 ml/l.

Why did you post that? That's not mine. Did you want me to fill that out or something? I think I told you all of that in my one PM.

Thanks for the help.

 

[MynameStitch]

hey, damn good thing you noticed that I did not realize it had pasted that, because that was being sent to someone else, my ctrl + V key is messed up, because my parrot removed them and decided it was hers.

 

[MynameStitch]

if your mixture already has pH adjusts in it, you should not need to add anything to pH adjust your water, because the mixture already has a buffer.

You should not have to adjust your meter everytime you use it, if so something is wrong with it.

When I say you have to flush your plants out, that is last resort, not now, because if you keep using pH adjusted water your going to cause an imbalanced eventually.

Stop using the pH adjusters in the water, OF is already balanced, do not add anything to your water.

ignore my previous post about the questions and the last half of my previous post, something got screwed up somewhere, really sorry about that, computer keyboard is messed up.

 

[jonezin]

Hey thanks. there is nothing wrong with my meter. I just have a lot of calibration solution so I check it to see if it's still on. I haven't needed to calibrate/adjust it for quite a while now. It works great.

I'll quit adjusting the water and see what happens. But that is what I did the first grow (because I hadn't gotten my ph pen yet) and I had this same problem then. So I don't know if it's going to fix it or not. Maybe it will because I used more lime in the soil this time? That would be nice. I was using distilled water mostly though so maybe if I start using different water along with not adjusting it like I've been doing it will fix the problem?

I forgot to mention that during that first grow that I mentioned above, I was using distilled water with no cal mag + when I had this same problem. I hadn't gotten my ph pen yet so I wasn't adjusting anything. They were getting water one time, then nutes the next time throughout the grow. But I didn't know at the time that you're supposed to use cal mag in the water if you're using distilled/RO water. I assumed that if I started using Cal Mag with the distilled water that I wouldn't have any problems.

 

[MynameStitch]

That would be nice. I was using distilled water mostly though so maybe if I start using different water along with not adjusting it like I've been doing it will fix the problem?

that can cause problems too depending on the source.... if your tap water is not bad mix 50/50 tap/distilled or RO

Ya, most of the time you won't need to use any pH adjusting, but it all depends on the source of the distilled water, most of the time it's a little under 6.2,but I have seen them be like 5.5 pH too.

So if your having problems, use half and half if you still want to continue using the distilled.

Ya, you are right about the use of cal mag, you should use it when your using pure water, micronutrients are removed from it.

how much more lime did you use? In order for lime to keep the pH acidic you need a ton of it in the soil, lime gets to a point where when you use the safe amount it's great pH buffer. Back on overgrow there was a growfaq about using lime as to make the mixture more acidic, I thought this was odd so I did a test myself and added lime to a small amount of soil and did before and after test, the amount showed how much was needed to make the pH normal and how much to make it more acidic,in order to do this the amount of lime you need to make your mixture more acidic is not safe to the plants, it would be like watering your plants with like 400 ppm of calcium magneisum hard water. the point would not work, because you would have too much nutrients and high amounts of certain nutrients cause problems with the other.

 

[jonezin]

I used 1 1/2 cups in a 1.5 cubic foot bag of FFOF. Jorge Cervantes says to use 1 cup per cubic foot of soil. So that's the amount he recommends for 1.5 cubic feet of soil.

I just want to get this rust looking crap to stop. Whatever it takes to get rid of the problem I will do. I thought I was doing everything right. Everything I have been doing is recommended by different growers.

That's one thing I've noticed, and not just with growing pot. Sometimes taking several peoples ideas and trying to incorporate them into what you're doing doesn't work. You have to go with one persons ideas and stick with that since the system as a whole will work. When you start trying to take bits and pieces of different peoples ideas and doing them all together you run into problems. Or at least I have.

Hey I have a question for you too. That thread on here about that Moonshine Mix says that all you need to add during the entire grow is ph adjusted water. Why does he say to use ph adjusted water? If the soil already has buffers in it like you're saying with mine, wouldn't you want to use unadjusted water with that Moonshine Mix too? Why would that be different?

Why would using ph adjusted water or nutrient mix like I have been doing cause problems? If the soil ph and the water I am giving the plants is about the same why would it hurt anything? Wouldn't it cause more problems to give the plants acidic nutrients? Won't the ph of the soil end up getting too acidic over time if you don't adjust the ph of whatever you're watering with? Or will the lime keep it in the range it's supposed to be in by itself?

I'm just trying to understand all of this better. Thanks.

 

[MynameStitch]

I know which thread your talking about, do you have a link to it?
I need to know what is in the mixture cause I know it;s got a ton of organics in it and I think it may have more alkaline stuff in there. It all depends on what is in the mixture weather the organic product used is acidic or alkaline and the more alkaline products you got then you will need to add acidic products to abalnce it or use pH adjusted water pH down.

Yes, I fully agree with you everyone does things differently and there is no one way to grow a plant and I have tried many ways to grow or different ways and there were ways that just did not work for me with the way I grow my plants and then you get people swearing by it that it's easy, but it is not like that for everyone.

whatever works for you, keep doing it whenever someone strays away from there routine growing style there is always going to be a higher chance something is going to go wrong.

 

[Phillthy]

here is a quick fix. forget ph. forget adding any nutes.

take 1 bag of ffof and mix it with about 2.0cf of peat moss. add 3/4 lime. thats all you need. 1.5 cups is way too much for what you are doing. add 3/4 cup bone meal. add 3/4 cup blood meal. 10-20% of total mixture in added perlite.

this mix makes 30 gallons and will take you through 70 days or so depending on strain. flush if your strain finishes faster.

i have run about 20 strains this year with that mix and i dont even know what the ph of my water or runoff is. i dont even water to runoff.

good luck!

 

[ballplayer 2]

Phillthy, you do not add an additional potassium source to the above mix? OF already has enough potassium in the mix to carry a plant through the cycle? Could I add a bit of Kelp Meal just to make sure (say like 1 tbs/gallon)? Do you moisten your mix and let it cook for a couple weeks? What is your water source like? Just asking because I am likely to have to use RO water as my source.

Stich, bought your book and love it. Great pictures to reference. I also have a couple questions for you. Did you say that adding too much lime can actually make your mix MORE acidic? I ask for a couple reasons actually. First, as long as I stick to the 1-2 TBS/gallon amount I should be safe right? Second, I have tapwater that is 840 ppm from the faucet (meters are absolutely correct, and has been verified at two local shops as well). On the city website it says that the water hardness equals about 25 grains. 25 grains of hardness is equal to about 425 ppm hardness. I constantly have micronute troubles(that tend to all look differently each occasion) and when I test runoff it seems to have always dropped into the basement (lower the 5.5, typically 5.1-5.5). Now that was when I was using chem nutes in Sunshine Mix. It typically happened with organic bottled nutes as well, but usually took a bit longer to manifest (often beginnng to early flowering, you know tantalyzingly close to harvest, and I NEVER made it). There was no lime added and aged into the Sunshine Mix at those times. Now these are not regarding any specific problems I have ongoing now, cuz I have nothing going now. However, I do want to get my duck in a row before I WASTE anymore seeds. My municipality also uses chloramines, so RO for organics is kind of a must for me.

So my overall question is, how can I use RO water in an organic soil grow and be successful? Could I use the LC mix and blood/bone/kelp/greensand/worm cast/lime recipe from the organics for beginners sticky (I will also be adding Great White Myco from Plant Success. And have EJ Microblast if necessary. As well as PBP Grow and Bloom for maybe some additional light and/or intermitent feedings) ? Could I be successful using the mix Phillthy suggested above? I am not looking for a 100% You are going to be successful RAH RAH answer because I know it is not that simple. I would just like to know if, in your professional opinion I am LIKELY to be successful (taking optimum environment and watering practices as a given). I am not a noob (though I do feel like one most of the time) and have had successful harvests in the past (before the water quality changed drastically), but I have not had a successful harvest in a VERY long time, and really need one because I am so sick of buying from shady dealers.

Jonezin, I am very sorry to jack your thread a bit. However, I felt some of your problems/concerns may be similar to mine. Sorry if I pissed you off, no intent meant on my part.

Thank you for all of your advice and interest.

 

[Phillthy]

hey BP,

i add kelp meal from time to time depending on strain but to be honest it isnt necessary for most.

i mix the soil and use it right away. no need to cook. i transplant directly into the soil then water after put into place (3 gal bags are heavy when wet ). i am on well water that is clear and odorless/tasteless. to be honest, you should be able to use RO water without issues, tap water as well.

 

[jonezin]

Here's a link to the Moonshine Mix thread.

I was under the impression that you were supposed to add lime to any soil mix. From what I had read I didn't think it would hurt anything. How much lime would you want to add to FFOF then if what I added was too much? Any at all?

Phillthy, I'll probably try that mix you posted next time. Eventually I am going to switch to hydro though. But I probably won't be able to for a while yet.

ballplayer 2, no problem. I'm not a total noob either. But I feel like one. My first actual beginning to end grow was back in 1993. I had 2 x 400 watt lights. And I had the Marijuana Growers Guide Deluxe, and the Insiders Guide. I read them both cover to cover at least twice before I bought my lights. I built a small 4'x4' grow room in my basement and had decent results. But that was a long time ago and I don't even remember what fertilizer I used. Or soil. But my plants did pretty good. I never had any problems like I am having now. I think I'm trying too hard now compared to back then...

Thanks again for your help with this. I can't wait until I have a grow and not have this rust problem. It really sucks and I'm getting pretty discouraged. I've spent so much money on all of this stuff lately that it really sucks to think you're doing everything right then have stuff like this happen.

So far the 2 plants that I have in the Roots Organics Natural & Organic soil are doing really good. I didn't add any lime to that stuff, it's just straight out of the bag. Hopefully I don't screw something up with that with the nutrients though, because I wasn't able to buy their grow, bloom and Trinity. I was able to get the Buddha Bloom and the Trinity.

I'm trying to figure out what to use in place of the Buddha Grow, if anything. When I transplanted these into the Nat & Organic soil I used Pure Blend Pro Grow, Buddha Bloom and Trinity. The PBP Grow isn't exactly the same as the Buddha Grow but it's still a Grow nutrient so I used that. I sent Roots an email asking them for advice on what to use as a substitute in place of their Grow and they never answered me.

Roots feeding schedule says to use their Grow through the 7th week of flowering. Does anyone know what I should use in place of that for now? Will the PBP Grow work ok? Or maybe Grow Big or Big Bloom? I need to get it figured out in the next week or so so I know what to give them the next time I give them nutrients.

 

[MynameStitch]

A friend sent me a PDF of there feeding regimen, it's absolutely insane, I would only start out with 1/3 to 1/2 of what they tell you......

You do not have to add lime to every mixture, if your mixture has additives then yes almost all people do add lime if they add other items in the mixture like oyster shells, worm castings bone blood meal and so forth....

Most good soils are already buffered, but when people add things to them it can throw it off which is why lime comes in handy.

FFOF is already pH balanced and should not need anymore lime added, it's a bag with nearly complete feeding in it. Just open transplant and pour.

Ya, I found the thread in my saved important threads folder.
Thanks for the link though

Roots organic wants you to feed seedlings; that is absolutely insane, as long as your using water with complete micronutrients you should not have to feed your seedlings unless grown in rockwool and are hand watering......

and even then the amount they give is crazy, because those cotyledons supply it with what it needs...... this is why a lot of people have issues, because they treat cannabis like any other plant and that is not true, they are sensitive to a high nutrient feeding regimen.....