why? Jacks and calcium nitrate

[Lbman]

I have been making minor tweaks to my nute formula with a variety of strains in veg. My goal is to find the best recipe for multi strain grow. I have been mixing a 200 gal res of nutes, and using the whole res over a couple weeks in hopes I will see the effects before changing formula. At this point I am having the most success with a formula of 3g jacks 5-12-26, 2.75-3g yara calnit, and .7g mag sulph. I have been using only these 3 things, trying to get it dialed before bringing other supplements back in. The thing I can't seem to figure out is why I always need more cal nit compared to almost everyone else. I have some possible theories. Here is my info

-growing in straight canna coco (loose, not compressed). I was using botinacare bricks, but switched to canna to avoid confusion with buffering/flushing out salts from coco
-lights are sunsystem lec (ceramic metal halide). I have been using one 315w bulb for this experiment. I am using the veg spectrum bulbs.
-ec is 1.3ish
-ph is 5.8
-water is R.O.
-drain to waste
-temp 79-80
-humidity 60-65ish

So I know I am up against it using pure coco, and using R.O. water. I had my well water tested some time ago, and it had higher than advised sodium levels. This is why I use R.O. Another thing to note: I am running this experiment on plants that have been rooted, watered/fed for weeks. There shouldn't be any concern about the coco needing to be cleaned or buffered.

I started with the standard jacks 321 recipie. 3.6/2.4/1.1 (I think. Whatever I used was the formula from jr peters webpage). The plants liked this for a while, but calcium deficiency started to show on almost all of my 20+ strains.

Then I tried the 3g jacks 2.5g calnit that so many seem to do well with. I started out without added magnesium. I had a few strains that showed some mag def, but I was also seeing more calcium deficiency on around half my strains. This seems odd to me, as everything I have read/heard, this ratio should provide enough calcium.

I started by bumping up the mag, and that didn't do much to change things, but when I added more calcium nitrate to a ratio of 3g/2.75g The plants started looking greener and happier in a fairly short time. The really strange thing is that they seem to do even better with 3g/3g ratio, although I do see some negative effects on a few strains, probably from too much nitrogen, or a slight lockout from the high cal levels?


I have been scratching my head trying to come up with ideas why I always need more calcium. I thought maybe my lights? Something like what you will hear people say after switching to led's? I guess I was hoping to hear if anyone else has experience this, or if anyone has any ideas what is going on? Once I get things moved into flower, they are under gavita 1000w de's. I normally drop the calcium after they adjust to the new lights, but even then the 2.5g seems to be a bit low for the first part of flower. Most of my struggles with nutrients happen in veg. I have tried experimenting with calimagic along with jacks, and it did ok, but doesn't really make sense to me aside from lower nitrogen levels. Any ideas/advice would be much appreciated. Thanks

 

[Principante8]

I haven't used Jack's yet, but mine just arrived in the mail so I'll be using it soon. In my reading about it, and powdered nutrients in general, many people have mentioned that they absorb moisture from the air, and that moisture can affect the overall weight quite bit sometimes. Did you perhaps leave the bag open? An open bag of powder in 60-65% humidity and it'll be sucking up water weight so you'd have to use more.

If it affects all varieties maybe buy a new bag. Weigh it and test EC against the current bag. I know it's different due to being liquid, but I've gotten a few jugs of botanicare calmag over the years that made my plants act weird. I didn't test the EC, just tossed the jug and when I used the new one everything went back to normal.

Good luck

 

[clown baby]

Have you tried upping the EC? I run Jacks 3-2-1 ratio at about 2.0 EC.
Started to see deficiencies when I switched over to LED, while running about 1.2 EC. Upped it to 2.0 and those problems went away.

Are you using any other additives that might be causing lockout?

Seems weird that you're seeing a problem on 20 different strains, while I haven't had that issue in almost a decade of using Jacks.

 

[Lbman]

I used to use an ec of 1.8. I did this for quite a while. I do go higher in flower, but I've seen more improvements than negatives since lowering the ec in veg. I'm not using any other additives at this point because I'm trying to get this base recipe dialed first. Are you using straight coco and ro water? I may be exaggerating a little, but nearly all my strains show cal deficiency if I use jacks 321 as directed. I can understand needing a higher cal and mag since I use an ro and grow in coco, but the 3g jacks to 2.5g cal not being enough surprises me. As for the nutrients absorbing the water, it's unlikely with my setup, but I've considered that

 

[f-e]

Reasons for poor uptake go beyond the quantity present. The primary drive behind Ca movement, is fluid movement carrying it along.

Need pics really.

 

[VerdantGreen]

Reasons for poor uptake go beyond the quantity present. The primary drive behind Ca movement, is fluid movement carrying it along.

Need pics really.

This is true, in general gardening, most calcium deficiency problems are caused by there not being enough water to 'deliver' the calcium

 

[Lbman]

Thanks for the input. I am aware of what your saying about uptake. Do you have any ideas what I might be doing to cause less water movement? Maybe the higher humidity? I do tend to keep my veg room a little above 60 rh

 

[f-e]

60% sounds alright. Is the temperature appropriate. Air movement. Fluid at the root.

 

[Lbman]

I've been keeping it a little warmer (80) lately, but things were the same at 76-78. I have experimented with mixing perlite with the coco. In my experience it just made for more work, and more frequent watering.

 

[Principante8]

Are you keeping your coco wet, or do you let it dry out a bit?

 

[Lbman]

Once the roots are established, I generally keep them wet. There is variation in how wet though.

 

[Three Berries]

I'm seeing the same thing with my current tent grow. I'm using soil though. I suspect the LEDs but their water use is quite low due to being big potted. I've been giving them some MgS and Ca Acetate on top of the weak fertilizer solution. Using both Happy Frog and Ocean Forest soils. Ocean Forest is worse it seems.

Next grow will be in smaller pot until near the end of veg. Only my second grow with a tent. I usually use a closet but that is for flowering now.

 

[TwistedPistil]

I ran RO water with 6/9 using potassium silicate first at no more than 1m/g as a no brainer substitute for pH up, then supplemented magnesium with Fulvex from botanicair. Fulvex specifically state their available water saluble magnesium on the bottle so it is easy to substitute.

I used this mix on dozens of strains. Only deficiency I ever saw was magnesium. Easily handled with a little more fulvex or multifeedings. I definitely settled on multifeeding as it helped all the strains out overall in coco.

I wanted to mess around with Jack's in coco, but for a home grow, cheap nutes, that works with every strain I grew, why fix what wasn't broken.

idk how much your mix costs, but after discounts from the grow store, my mix came to less than 10 cents a gallon. It was 5 cents a gallon for 6/9. So 1ml/gal protekt and 4mlgal fulvex, whatever that costs, on top of 6/9 costs.

Might fuck around with some good old fashioned math and see what your mix comes out to profile wise.

 

[OG_Bishop]

i used Jack's at a commercial grow last year. first off, get yourself a Magnetic Stir Plate for $30 off amazon. it'll make mixing nutes way easier (and slightly more enjoyable)

we had a cal/mag issue too. had to add 3ml of CalMag (Botanicare) to the Jack's recipe.

i would imagine if you switched to pro-mix (peat based + perlite) then you probably wouldnt have to use a CalMag additive. now that i have mostly OGs, i'm going to switch to pro-mix just because of the weird coco calmag issue.

 

[George]

I have been making minor tweaks to my nute formula with a variety of strains in veg. My goal is to find the best recipe for multi strain grow. I have been mixing a 200 gal res of nutes, and using the whole res over a couple weeks in hopes I will see the effects before changing formula. At this point I am having the most success with a formula of 3g jacks 5-12-26, 2.75-3g yara calnit, and .7g mag sulph. I have been using only these 3 things, trying to get it dialed before bringing other supplements back in. The thing I can't seem to figure out is why I always need more cal nit compared to almost everyone else. I have some possible theories. Here is my info

-growing in straight canna coco (loose, not compressed). I was using botinacare bricks, but switched to canna to avoid confusion with buffering/flushing out salts from coco
-lights are sunsystem lec (ceramic metal halide). I have been using one 315w bulb for this experiment. I am using the veg spectrum bulbs.
-ec is 1.3ish
-ph is 5.8
-water is R.O.
-drain to waste
-temp 79-80
-humidity 60-65ish

So I know I am up against it using pure coco, and using R.O. water. I had my well water tested some time ago, and it had higher than advised sodium levels. This is why I use R.O. Another thing to note: I am running this experiment on plants that have been rooted, watered/fed for weeks. There shouldn't be any concern about the coco needing to be cleaned or buffered.

I started with the standard jacks 321 recipie. 3.6/2.4/1.1 (I think. Whatever I used was the formula from jr peters webpage). The plants liked this for a while, but calcium deficiency started to show on almost all of my 20+ strains.

Then I tried the 3g jacks 2.5g calnit that so many seem to do well with. I started out without added magnesium. I had a few strains that showed some mag def, but I was also seeing more calcium deficiency on around half my strains. This seems odd to me, as everything I have read/heard, this ratio should provide enough calcium.

I started by bumping up the mag, and that didn't do much to change things, but when I added more calcium nitrate to a ratio of 3g/2.75g The plants started looking greener and happier in a fairly short time. The really strange thing is that they seem to do even better with 3g/3g ratio, although I do see some negative effects on a few strains, probably from too much nitrogen, or a slight lockout from the high cal levels?


I have been scratching my head trying to come up with ideas why I always need more calcium. I thought maybe my lights? Something like what you will hear people say after switching to led's? I guess I was hoping to hear if anyone else has experience this, or if anyone has any ideas what is going on? Once I get things moved into flower, they are under gavita 1000w de's. I normally drop the calcium after they adjust to the new lights, but even then the 2.5g seems to be a bit low for the first part of flower. Most of my struggles with nutrients happen in veg. I have tried experimenting with calimagic along with jacks, and it did ok, but doesn't really make sense to me aside from lower nitrogen levels. Any ideas/advice would be much appreciated. Thanks

Youre not alone and youre not wrong, but goin against the grain feels weird. Feels like were the problem. Had same issue (also in canna coco) when i made the assumption it was an all around formula. I tried to copy everyone else that said they had no problems but no dice it was always just the same ratios same problems. Couldnt understand how it was just me either lol. Ive come to realize that its actually a very specific formula and a very good one in its correct environment. It doesnt work for long term veg in 100% coco for me though and took some thought. Always an eventual build up in moms that would look good for a good while in new coco. The bigger the pots the longer the wait before issues like a salt build but couldnt fix it with lower EC. Made no sense. Well, too much K, not enough Ca. Sucks, but also not the end of the world cause you can adjust it easily. The new jacks bags say 4g hydro and 2.5g calnit. Even worse for small container coco grows.

I got this idea after seeing university studies with schools using Jacks hydro to grow crops. A lot of them ran a 1:1 ratio in rock wool!! Try the reverse 3/2/1 formula for pure coco grows in smaller containers. And try it for 4 days before declaring it a loss. Stick with this ratio or slowly back off CalNit until it balances for your particular strains and youre happy with their coloring. The numbers work surprisingly well. That will yield you the following and a much better formula for pure coco.

Dont be afraid of "abnormally" low K in coco. Canna runs less than 56ppm on their low feed and less than 70ppm on their normal feed. This will leave you plenty of room to add P and K boosters for specific clones/seed finds just like canna does, without completely destroying the ratios. If you add P you may need to add a little zinc in flower, it is a smidge low in comparison. 0.01 per 5 gallons of 15% edta zinc will put you at 0.158 ppm. If you lower epsom to 0.7g, lower calnit a tiny bit, add 0.2-0.3 MAP you almost have Canna A/B here at normal feed with some added NH4

2g Hydro 3g CalNit 1g Epsom:
N: 143
P: 28
K: 114
Ca: 143
Mg: 59
S: 79
B: 0.264
Cu: 0.079
Fe: 1.59
Mn: 0.264
Mo: 0.100
Zn: 0.079 (If P heavy ex: Short Boost to 60-80ppm: +0.01g 15% zinc edta per 5 gallons = 0.079 ppm per gal in solution. So 0.01g per 5 gal (0.079 ppm) plus jacks hydro at 2g per gal (0.079 ppm) will net you 0.158ppm Zn and so on)

Ratios:
Ca:Mg - 2.4:1
Ca:K - 1.25:1
K:Mg - 1.9:1

For a 20% stronger mix: 2.4g Hydro 3.6g CalNit and 1.2g Epsom (hehe). This will keep the ratios the same but bump EC. If you prefer a little extra P and N add 0.2g MAP per gallon (7ppm P, 6.3 ammonia N per 0.1g with 12-61-0 MAP)

Veg ratio calculation is too easy, (Grams of CalNit x 1.5 = required Grams of Hydro will let you get any EC you need). For flower you can adjust or flip ratio backwards midstretch or dont and instead use timed P and K boosters. Pull CalNit as normal, add back cal if needed using hydrated lime (51% elemental = ~13.5ppm per 0.1 grams). Theres a guy that goes by YosemiteSam and nMeeks that like to put gypsum in their coco at 3g per litre when their base mix already has about 120ppm Ca. An option to think about and take some calnit out of the mix. Both are fantastic growers. Goodluck, you got some wiggle room now.

 

[George]

Canna Coco A/B at 10mL. This is the only lab test ive seen someone by the name of "FarmerX" post. It was at 8mL (low feed veg) but i had converted it to 10mL (normal feed veg) for comparisons sake. You can see when you start with 2.4/3.6 it doesn't take much to hit these targets except K which youll never do with jacks without making it into "not jacks"

EC
PH
N	144.7 ppm
P	49.8 ppm
K	69.6 ppm
Ca	122.2 ppm
Mg	41.2 ppm
S	22.3 ppm
B	0.213 ppm
Cu	0.062 ppm
Fe	0.488 ppm
Mn	0.038 ppm
Mo	0.1 ppm
Zn:	0.15 ppm

heres another example that youre not asking for too much calcium in coco. This grower had his source water analyzed and built his formula around it. 162ppm cal (dont let anyone tell you it isnt plant available Ca) much lower N though thanks to great calcium supply in the tap so kess need for calnit. Maybe analyze your tap and lets see if its usable like this? Then you can run lower CalNit. I havent tried it cause im on ro and tap smells like fuckin bleach at this place. Capulator tried this formula on another forum and at the time said it was very good though.

Notice high Ca, high Mg, Low K by design.



Edit: Uggh, something else of super importance with Jacks we need to mention. This took me a while to figure out after switching from bottles.

Jacks would benefit from NH4. Nitrogen is needed in large supply all day long.When a plant uptakes NO3 it RAISES the PH of the media and LOWERS it when it uptakes NH4. The no3:nh4 ratio can be used to buffer THE MEDIA a bit (also can change plant characteristics) against Ph changes.

One thing youll notice about jacks is that although your nutrient solution may be going in at 5.8, you will notice your run off PH can be over 7.0 on a balanced EC. Dont listen to those who say run off tests dont work in coco. Theyre useful. There are methods that give you a ballpark that we then use as our reference for our run. Universities teach a pour thru method as well an saturated media extract and canna teaches the slurry method for a reason. The methods work and are useful for determining which *direction* you're headed. We dont care about having a precise Ph or EC value, we just want to know if were veering off badly from where we started.

With that said, one thing you can do with jacks to battle Ph rise if you can confirm your problems are from high media PH is dont use silica of any kind until you can manage any ph swings, and dont ph it to 5.8 everytime. It usually lands around 5.2 or so. Let it go in low here and there so that it regulates itself a bit or add NH4 to buffer your ph a bit. If you play with the hydro portion like i showed before and even play with the calnit if you can get away with keeping it lower than i suggested (2/2.8 or 2/2.7 numbers are still good for coco by the numbers and ratios) you can get P lowered and add a form of NH4 such as the MAP and get more control in coco because unfortunately our media likes calcium and jacks decided that our nitrogen is only allowed to come from NO3...thats a lot ph rise with how much calnit we have to use to get adequate Ca for coco/ro

 

[George]

Ive got mine now at hydro/calnit 2.9/3.2 with ro in pure coco with a tiny 0.1g micro nutrient boost from bioag cytoplus. Still messing with it but working really well. You can run 2/2.2 hydro/calnit also for the same formula just diluted. Maybe cut the cyto to 0.05g/gal.

 

[Absolem]

https://www.icmag.com/forum/marijua...0857-lab-results-with-canna-coco-a-b?t=251463

 

[George]

Thanks for the link, thats one of the formulas i tried to match actually. I had to come back to say i ended up with calcium excess trying to hit those canna numbers at my desired EC using jacks. Maybe a lower ec would of helped. Not sure why but i had leaf twist and cupping really bad on one OG in particular that was realllllly amplified with low humidity and would get blistering when trying to add amino acids. Took a while to figure out tbh lol. I was chasing every micro deficiency there was thinking if my macro ratios are matching im good there, but just wasnt the case for me. I did use MAP for my P source. Maybe too much ammonia? Idk

I am now using 3.3 hydro to 2.87 calnit (for people using 3.6 that would be ~3.13 calnit) and plants look good. Basically whatever my jacks is at I multiply my calnit by .8697. Depending on whose numbers you believe and whose calnit you're using this will put you around 163-47-194-137-57 with a 1.41:1 K:Ca and a 2.4:1 Ca:Mg. Can hit this with just jacks. Next Im gonna try 2.04 hydro 2.67 calnit 0.22 mkp 0.43 knit which would give 153-42-180-127-35 for 1.42:1 K:Ca and 3.6:1 Ca:Mg and leave room for P, K and Mg boosts/stimulation without causing lock out. Im waiting on mkp and knit to try the second formula but its basically a match to lab tested house&garden coco formula with about 15ppm less N.

Anyone have success hitting the CANNA numbers with jacks? I know jacks zinc levels are a bit less and you can tell the plants dont do well with cold which is a Zn and P issue. They also get tip burn and leaf "unfolding" issues. Canna uses high P and at one point also recommended tap at 0.2ec which will have some micros including Zn usually. I tried adding P and Ca and match and it just didnt work plants would look worse and worse and experienced some defs ive never seen before lol. I figured maybe it was an P:Zn ratio issue as coco likes to hold zinc too. There is some research suggesting 30:1-60:1 P:Zn ratios meaning canna but more importantly jacks need to have closer to a full point for true 100% coco use right? Idk. Another thing to play with but the current ratio i listed above is working really well for me on 18 different moms for veg in pure canna brick coco. Edit: after reading the thread i see dizzlekush had the same concerns, my initial ratios are a offshoot of his...what is canna doing? Idk they got some real science over there lol.

 

[Hatery1967]

Canna Coco A/B at 10mL. This is the only lab test ive seen someone by the name of "FarmerX" post. It was at 8mL (low feed veg) but i had converted it to 10mL (normal feed veg) for comparisons sake. You can see when you start with 2.4/3.6 it doesn't take much to hit these targets except K which youll never do with jacks without making it into "not jacks"

EC
PH
N	144.7 ppm
P	49.8 ppm
K	69.6 ppm
Ca	122.2 ppm
Mg	41.2 ppm
S	22.3 ppm
B	0.213 ppm
Cu	0.062 ppm
Fe	0.488 ppm
Mn	0.038 ppm
Mo	0.1 ppm
Zn:	0.15 ppm

heres another example that youre not asking for too much calcium in coco. This grower had his source water analyzed and built his formula around it. 162ppm cal (dont let anyone tell you it isnt plant available Ca) much lower N though thanks to great calcium supply in the tap so kess need for calnit. Maybe analyze your tap and lets see if its usable like this? Then you can run lower CalNit. I havent tried it cause im on ro and tap smells like fuckin bleach at this place. Capulator tried this formula on another forum and at the time said it was very good though.

Notice high Ca, high Mg, Low K by design.

filedata/fetch?id=18036752&d=1641705724

Edit: Uggh, something else of super importance with Jacks we need to mention. This took me a while to figure out after switching from bottles.

Jacks would benefit from NH4. Nitrogen is needed in large supply all day long.When a plant uptakes NO3 it RAISES the PH of the media and LOWERS it when it uptakes NH4. The no3:nh4 ratio can be used to buffer THE MEDIA a bit (also can change plant characteristics) against Ph changes.

One thing youll notice about jacks is that although your nutrient solution may be going in at 5.8, you will notice your run off PH can be over 7.0 on a balanced EC. Dont listen to those who say run off tests dont work in coco. Theyre useful. There are methods that give you a ballpark that we then use as our reference for our run. Universities teach a pour thru method as well an saturated media extract and canna teaches the slurry method for a reason. The methods work and are useful for determining which *direction* you're headed. We dont care about having a precise Ph or EC value, we just want to know if were veering off badly from where we started.

With that said, one thing you can do with jacks to battle Ph rise if you can confirm your problems are from high media PH is dont use silica of any kind until you can manage any ph swings, and dont ph it to 5.8 everytime. It usually lands around 5.2 or so. Let it go in low here and there so that it regulates itself a bit or add NH4 to buffer your ph a bit. I often use https://plainmath.net/secondary/geometry/high-school-geometry/analytic-geometry for such calculations. With its help, it is very convenient to find and solve high school analytic geometry problems and find similar topics. If you play with the hydro portion like i showed before and even play with the calnit if you can get away with keeping it lower than i suggested (2/2.8 or 2/2.7 numbers are still good for coco by the numbers and ratios) you can get P lowered and add a form of NH4 such as the MAP and get more control in coco because unfortunately our media likes calcium and jacks decided that our nitrogen is only allowed to come from NO3...thats a lot ph rise with how much calnit we have to use to get adequate Ca for coco/ro

Wow, you've done so many calculations. Never understood all this physics and chemistry