which breeders only use landrace and f1's in their breeding to keep strain purity

[yoss33]

rick, I can't see where I used "inbred" as a noun Maybe it's my English failing but I'm missing the error.
And sure, I'm not calling the californians "inbred" (v.tr.) (with very little exceptions, just like everywhere on Earth). On the contrary, I said they are NOT. Please, don't twist my words.
What I said is that according to your definition of inbreeding they ARE inbreeding - they are part of a single population in California and they mate with each other, that's enough for you.
I'm not a biologist of any kind, so I'm not the authority here and I don't want to sound as such. All I do is read and think. And I read on Wikipedia that:
"Inbreeding is the reproduction from the mating of two genetically related parents, which can increase the chances of offspring being affected by recessive or deleterious traits."
Excuse me, but I think the numbers in the population are very important (especially the number of parents that give seed for the next season) for deleterious traits to increase in the offspring (i.e., for inbreeding to occur).
Inbreeding is not breeding of an isolate population! That's just breeding.
In this sense, you are plain wrong with "any single population will inbreed if left to do so,, no matter what the numbers or size,,,,,,its a single population!!"
The number or size does matter!
If landraces were so inbred as you suggest, why would anyone (like charlie at cannabiogen) inbreed them even further? Maybe the landrace seeds he got weren't so consistent (inbred), huh?
Inbreeding in landraces is possible only with strains that are grown in jungles - small patches that hardly exchange pollen with each other. That's why you see hermies and freaks more often in some Thai lines. But inbreeding in the open field landraces like Oaxacan with their thousands and thousands in a single field and the 50-kilo bags of seeds for the next season? C'mon...
I've seen this wrong (at least to me) use of the therm "inbreeding" applied to landraces in quite a few threads here on the forum, and I finally decided to cast my light on it I hope we'll make it all clear and it's not about "my" or "his" POV, but about the plants that we all try to understand better.

 

[Texicannibus]

So yoss you seriously hold the position that the plants in that field arent related?... Technically by your own definition all cannabis breeding is inbreeding. Just my observation.

 

[englishrick]

Yoss33 = Landraces are not inbred because the thousands of plants that breed are not so close relatives of each other.

^^^ here i think you use it as a noun,,,,,,,how do you define "inbred"



sorry yoss,,,,,,,i dont mean to sound like a dick,,,,,,lets debate this ,,,,im havin fun....



ive got 3 questions that might help



1), in biology,,,,whats the difference in definition between "incrossd" and "inbred"

2), what is more stable,,F1 or F2?

3), how many plants do you need to have a landrace seedline?

 

[englishrick]

Yoss = Maybe the landrace seeds he got weren't so consistent (inbred)

ahhhh,,,,,^^^^

inbreeding has nothing to do with consistancy,,,,,inbreeding can create vaireation!!,,,,,,,,,,,gene frequencys create consistancy!

 

[DocLeaf]

which strains ? (breeders use landrace and f1)

Shantibaba (aka Mr Nice seeds) does,, for example
Spice = Hawaiian indica x Hawaiian sativa (or visa versa)

Afro Pips also do some OK landrace seeds,, as does Gypsy (for FREE) after/when he's been on a seed hunting mission. Otherwise a lot of the heirloom/landrace seeds are kept and maintained by the underground massive,, full props to the Spanish ganja-cats on that

 

[englishrick]

^^^^YEP YEP!!,,,hittin the bulls-eye Doc!!,,,,"one hunderd and eighty!!"

 

[elmanito]

I dont think Mandala Mike has ever come out and said what the parents of some of his crosses are, whether they be landrace or dutch hybrid.

Perhaps this will answer your question

Are your strains pure land race genetics?

All our strains contain a certain percentage of land race genetics, but they are not pure land race strains.

Namaste

 

[Dr_Tre]

Good discussion here.

inbreeding can create vaireation!!

Sorry if it's a newbie question, rick, but could you explain this a bit further?IMO,only F1 inbreeding can cause variation, inbreeding F2 and next generations would give consistent offspring.

 

[Justa6655321]

I'm getting sooo tired of this Landrace fad....

Someone define what a landrace is again and then prove to me that what people are selling as a landrace is actually just that! It's impossible! Until we have the capabilities to do genetic tests on our plants....actually i should say until it is cheap enough... and then a central dna bank is set up...it will be impossible to define a landrace....

 

[VerdantGreen]

rick, I can't see where I used "inbred" as a noun Maybe it's my English failing but I'm missing the error.
And sure, I'm not calling the californians "inbred" (v.tr.) (with very little exceptions, just like everywhere on Earth). On the contrary, I said they are NOT. Please, don't twist my words.
What I said is that according to your definition of inbreeding they ARE inbreeding - they are part of a single population in California and they mate with each other, that's enough for you.
I'm not a biologist of any kind, so I'm not the authority here and I don't want to sound as such. All I do is read and think. And I read on Wikipedia that:
"Inbreeding is the reproduction from the mating of two genetically related parents, which can increase the chances of offspring being affected by recessive or deleterious traits."
Excuse me, but I think the numbers in the population are very important (especially the number of parents that give seed for the next season) for deleterious traits to increase in the offspring (i.e., for inbreeding to occur).
Inbreeding is not breeding of an isolate population! That's just breeding.
In this sense, you are plain wrong with "any single population will inbreed if left to do so,, no matter what the numbers or size,,,,,,its a single population!!"
The number or size does matter!
If landraces were so inbred as you suggest, why would anyone (like charlie at cannabiogen) inbreed them even further? Maybe the landrace seeds he got weren't so consistent (inbred), huh?
Inbreeding in landraces is possible only with strains that are grown in jungles - small patches that hardly exchange pollen with each other. That's why you see hermies and freaks more often in some Thai lines. But inbreeding in the open field landraces like Oaxacan with their thousands and thousands in a single field and the 50-kilo bags of seeds for the next season? C'mon...
I've seen this wrong (at least to me) use of the therm "inbreeding" applied to landraces in quite a few threads here on the forum, and I finally decided to cast my light on it I hope we'll make it all clear and it's not about "my" or "his" POV, but about the plants that we all try to understand better.

yoss, im no expert either, but ive gone a little beyond wikipedia in my study of genetics, and whether you breed 2 parents of the same strain together or 1000 then it's still inbreeding.

you are either inbreeding or outcrossing afaik when you make seeds, depending on if the parents are related or not.

and the reason why someone would inbreed them further is to make seeds, no other option if you want to keep the landrace or ibl going.

 

[englishrick]

Good discussion here.

Sorry if it's a newbie question, rick, but could you explain this a bit further?IMO,only F1 inbreeding can cause variation, inbreeding F2 and next generations would give consistent offspring.

hows this for ya?

you tell me where that "ee" comes from?.........

"btw,,that is not my tat,,,,,,i would never do that to myself,,i dont even know whos tat it is,,but i do think its cool"

 

[englishrick]

this 1 might help a lil more ,,,,,,

 

[englishrick]

you are either inbreeding or outcrossing afaik when you make seeds, depending on if the parents are related or not.

V`s got it in 1!!


yeh man...there is only 2 choices!!,,,,,,,,incrossing or outcrossing

"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."

im the fool,,,,flipin hek thats sutch a simple explanation!!

 

[DocLeaf]

^^^^YEP YEP!!,,,hittin the bulls-eye Doc!!,,,,"one hunderd and eighty!!"

Do we win Bullie's special prize ? lol

The majority of seeds available are first generation hybrids (if not "true F1 hybrids"),, perhaps inbred (if not slightly outbred),, regular (when not feminized). F2-10s arent that common

Landrace is a completely different matter. The people maintaining (now heirloom) landrace varieties (jah bless them) , aren't interested in many F1 hybrids (other for themselves to smoke) cause making F1 hybrids isn't what they do,, they maintain landrace varieties! and this is where their seed energy grows

Hope this helps

 

[englishrick]

 

[yoss33]

Rick, thanks for the clarification of my idea to Texicannibus
I'm not English, so I'm stepping into your territory (just a tourist, heh), but my humble English tells me that "inbred" in the sentence "Landraces are not inbred" is the passive form of the transitive verb "to inbreed", not a noun
As I said I'm not a biology specialist, so take my attempts at answering your questions with a pinch of mercy.
1) You incross different lines (sub-strains) of the same strain. You inbreed close relatives (that are obviously in the same sub-strain).
2) I guess here by "stable" you mean "uniform in traits". F1 (of true P1 parents) are very uniform. F2 and their progeny fall in separate lines with various recessive traits shining.
3) I can only speculate but maybe at least a hundred parents for every generation are needed to breed a healthy line. Of course, you could do with less parents if you carefully select them (but that "carefully" implies checking the progeny which is impossible to do completely).
I understand your idea that "inbreeding" is breeding withIN an isolated population (parents being from same line, and these parents being sort of relatives even if not so close). I'm totally OK with the idea, but everywhere I read, definitions of "inbreeding" stress on the close relativity and the bad consequences for the genes.
Someone to cast more light here? Any true inbreeder reading?

p.s. Damn, I'm slow... several posts behind

 

[englishrick]

bro,,,,im not gona argue with you,,,,,your missing my point of disrutive selection,,,,what your discribing is DisrutiveSelection couppled with ballanced selection,,,and its still calssed as INBREEDING!!!

im pretty sure everyone here thinks your wrong,,,,,,,oviously i cant speke for everyone but it seems that way to me,,,,anyone whos read anything more comprehesive than wikipidia seems to be telling you the same thing,,,,

it just seems pointless debating this with you, when your missing everyones points,,,,im just making things even more complicated as i contiue expaining it in detail,,,,VerdantGreen is 100% correct in what he said to you!!

VerdantGreen made it very simple,,,,,you can ither outcross or you can incross,,,you only have 2 choices!!!!!!

yalla!!,,,i love you,,,but comon

 

[yoss33]

I posted my reply very late and didn't see your and VerdantGreen's posts.
Excuse me for getting you so nervous

I don't know what kind of experience you, guys, have but I think everyone can learn from Wikipedia or a simple search in Google. And you don't really need to get so upset unless you've done your homework
A simple search in Google gives this one - it's for doggies, since we get so upset by our botanic misunderstandings:
http://www.bulldoginformation.com/breeding-types.html

 

[yoss33]

And by the way, I've found that good herb, inbred or not, makes me float above all these negative emotions and be able to clearly argue without all this ego stuff. I'm not here to feel negative emotions and I doubt anyone is. Cheers

 

[Jimmy Saville]

Not to complicate things moreso but an incross implies selection of parental lines whereas to preserve as many genetic possibilities as possible in a strain of cannabis one should openly pollinate with as many examples of a strain as possible (thousands).