when do you know your plant is not a seedling anymore and enters Veg

[faintfuzzies]

They are based on how much abuse the plant can take before bursting into flame.
LMFAO!!!!!

Oh shit my plants went into flames.... It must have been too much abuse with the nutes .. Too funny man

BTW for the price thats paid for advancd nutes there should be a person that comes to my home and waters them for me .. Live and learn. Im finding out as i go , that i could have bought just as good or better nutes cheaper .. I dont know for sure because im a newb but It seems like advanced nutes mixing chart is on high side for sure .. and advanced nutes are the ones that told me to use 6.4 for my ph in soiless, Ifound out afterwards that i am really doing hydroponics when i used the soil less meduim and should be using around 5.8ish or a little lower..

so much to learn, Ijust hope it works out in the end and was worth the stress.......Just as long i dont kill them.. Learning curve for sure

Faint

 

[StrontiumDog]

I use the coty's as seedling sign, when they wither, it's not a seedling anymore...

I've had many plants which have had healthy green cotyledons all the way through to plant maturity, only yellowing as the rest of the leaves are yellowing as per normal flowering maturity.

They sure weren't seedlings until weeks away from fully ripe.

Sure, some yellow within weeks, some within a few days even but also some remain green and healthy all the way through nearly, i think there's a few variables which affect when cotyledons lose chlorophyll and wither, some strain genetics, some environmental.

Peace.

 

[tube dude]

Your ph is too low for a soiless mix. You should be at about 6.8-7 for soiless.

 

[Phychotron]

pH is over rated in my opinion. Unless it is specifically giving you a problem you might not even notice if you don't adjust it. after nutes my tap water comes out to 6.5-7 w/o adjustment. and the plants seem to be going strong in sunshine mix. Sunshine 4 is good stuff, I was really impressed with the root ball over soil. Have you tried not adjusting it and seeing what happens? I think you'll be fine doing nothing.

nutrients are chelated (hugged by an inert molecule and made available at broader range pH) specifically so people don't need to mess with the pH. Advanced nutrients should have talked you up a storm about it--they really push that about their product, but it's not unique. the bottle might even say something like "ph perfect formula."

sensi grow I mix at 1/4-1/2 strength (1-2ml/L), lighter at first with plain water occasionally. Same with flowering nutes, but I might start it off with a full dose of nutrients.

 

[StrontiumDog]

pH is over rated in my opinion. Unless it is specifically giving you a problem you might not even notice if you don't adjust it. after nutes my tap water comes out to 6.5-7 w/o adjustment. and the plants seem to be going strong in sunshine mix. Sunshine 4 is good stuff, I was really impressed with the root ball over soil. Have you tried not adjusting it and seeing what happens? I think you'll be fine doing nothing.

nutrients are chelated (hugged by an inert molecule and made available at broader range pH) specifically so people don't need to mess with the pH. Advanced nutrients should have talked you up a storm about it--they really push that about their product, but it's not unique. the bottle might even say something like "ph perfect formula."

sensi grow I mix at 1/4-1/2 strength (1-2ml/L), lighter at first with plain water occasionally. Same with flowering nutes, but I might start it off with a full dose of nutrients.

Absolutely, imho as well.

I'm with the school of thought, that Cannabis plants respond well to little and often, with a bit of feed every watering, it corrects tap pH which is usually around 7-7.5 or higher.

But i think it wise to ensure Dolomitic Lime/acidity regulator, is added to medium, then as ye say, it matters little if the nutrient water is a tad acidic as the Lime will correct.

Only time i have had pH issues is when i was lazy in recycling medium once and just added half volume of new compost to compost from a couple of 4 monthers flowering with a lot of salt build up (No Lime), regretted that, i'm sure people can guess the results, now i don't take chances and clean salts from old medium better and ensure i add Lime, great for the Mg requirements as well.

I consider all soil growers should ensure they use Lime, it's invaluable imho, saves a lot of stress, to self and the plants.

Also, regards chelation, another way in which H2O2 is useful, adds to ion bonding and uptake by plants as it breaks down to provide root zone Oxygenation.

Peace.

 

[dagnabit]

That could take months. Seedling stage is over within 2-3 weeks of sprout.

yup...

i was thinking age of consent...
'ya know when cutting a clone off her aint kiddie porn

5th set=old enough to bleed

 

[StrontiumDog]

yup...

i was thinking age of consent...
'ya know when cutting a clone off her aint kiddie porn

5th set=old enough to bleed

Agreed.

5th node and beyond, overall development is, or should be if plant is healthy, conducive to topping out or a FIM with minimal retardation of vigour, before that, at 3rd/4th, it could set the plant back too much and take much longer to recover as the plants systems are too under developed.

This is now consensus, i've seen advice from 2001-5 and in older books by top cannabis cultivation personalities, mention no names, which say it's fine to top out at 2nd or 3rd, (which you can do of course, but expect the plant to be much slower at recovering back to vigour).

I think as grow forums got going more and more, 2004+, more people started topping etc, more evidences to the contrary of older advice stating 2nd/3rd node is fine for topping out came about via posts from empirical contradictions where growth slowed far more than desirable and so grow guides and more recent books adjusted accordingly.

Before then, communication among the grower community was not as is these days and rising since early 00’s, especially since 2003/4+ so contradictions to books etc, some now obvious myths, weren’t so common (I’ve seen some shocking info from 70’s-80’s books, I’m surprised they ended up with any herb at all, just dead plants with some stupid nonsense they came out with back then, indeed, they seemed more focused on the grass than bud, some of them.).

5th node upwards, completely agree, at 5th node topped out and after recovery, it’s then ye take bottom branches from first nodes for clones if wanted, else I say leave topping, fim’ing, until later, 8th node if intending taking bottom branch cuttings as well as top.

Peace.

[Don't like that phrase though, "Old enough to bleed....", must say, even when i was a teenager myself i frowned at those who came out with it and avoided several such people, still in my long term memory, there to remember for life i should avoid, seems misogynist to me.]

 

[faintfuzzies]

Update ,

I guess i must be a super dum ass. I called Advanced nute and had a long talk with them. I was told my ph is way off . Im setting it at 5.8 right now , Im using soilless sunshine mix #4 and i thought i should treat it like hydro when setting ph. the ADvanced nutes guy said nope i should set it around 6.3ph so if he is right im way off, another thing he asked me is how often do i feed, I said you mean how many times do i water per week , he said no, how often do you feed with nutes, I told him i use nutes every time i water . i mix it as they show on the nute chart online. well he said theres your problem also , he said i should only feed with nutes once per week and if they need watering just use ph adjusted water. so im guess im doing 2 things way wrong.

#1 when using advanced nutes with sunshine mix #4 advanced i should treat it like i was using soil not as hydro as i was told by hydro store guy and set the ph for soil at 6.3 not 5.8 as one would do for hydro.

#2 do not feed my plants every time i water , feed once a week and use ph adjusted water for all the other waterings. It will work out to be every other watering.

so does this sound about right for the ph issues ? the watering and feeding of nutes i get 100% I just want to make sure im on right track for ph my water. does 6.3 sound about right when using sunshine mix #4 advanced. im am not sure but i think the advanced nute guy might know whats going on when he says to adjust to 6.3ph when using sushine mix #4, but i have heard by other medical growers in my area to set my ph to 5.8 so i guess thats why im still unsure who to listen too.

I just want to extend my many thanks to all of you that replied to my pleas for help.. being a newb,I have alot to learn and understand. I am vey happy i joined this site, it is great to be able to ask all these questions to people who know how to do it and have done it right !

Thanks

Faint

 

[StrontiumDog]

I would take the A.N. guys advice, it does sound right faintfuzzies.

Though i've posted in relation to others comments which are off your main issue, i don't qualify opinions, or facts regards hydro as i'm exclusively soil medium which has very different parameters, as ye know, i've not learned much about the niceties in the differences between soil and hydro as not my grow format and i don't like to profess or qualify advice unless i know things for a fact, i keep my head out of hydro grow issues mainly.

But i will add to what the A.N. guy said, insomuch as whilst all strains have pH values in common to either soil or hydro, when it comes to feeding, some strains vary a lot, some are hungry for N, some aren't, some are P hungry, some aren't, most are Mg hungry, some aren't, etc, and whilst there is a general ball park, as people will tell you, it's only when a grower has grown the same strain a couple/few times that they start noticing how to dial that strain in better than what are basic feed guidelines.

Not trying to confuse the issue, but feeding guidelines are just that, each strain does behave differently to what are average feed values and some light feeders or greedy feeders will not be optimum at those general guidelines, pH is pH, most all strains want the same as far as that goes, very few exceptions.

It's better to feed low and raise if they want more, than overdose, if ye don't know what a strain prefers.

You don't mention here what strain ye are growing, if you know, i suggest doing some searches, here and on Google for same on other forums, look for grow diaries/reports on the strain you are growing to see what others mention about how much feed generally, or specifically if that strain is greedy or light on N, etc.

That helps you get a better idea specific to your strain, without growing it several times yourself and learning lessons from mistakes others have made before you, before you may do the same yourself, learn vicariously from others who have grown it before you, sometimes a strain won't have anybody putting a grow diary/report up, some strains have many, you may find only soil, you may find just full hydro not soiless etc, but it pays to do searches and swot up from what others have experienced, you'll gain invaluable insights regards where strains differ from what are general guidelines for feeding and a lot more, it's a standard advice i have mentioned many times over the years and do exactly that on every new strain i grow myself (though as mentioned, sometimes there is no other info out there so ye're on your own on a learning curve which may present issues, finding that myself with 2 hybrid strains i'm growing now for the first time, Freedom and Elektra from Highlife seeds, no issues yet and may not be any, just nothing out there from previous grows, so it's general values and considering ancestral phenotypes when they become obvious where the 2 strains are leaning if seems general values are off a bit or i get any issues.).

Good luck at getting everything nicely dialled in matey.

Peace.

 

[faintfuzzies]

I would take the A.N. guys advice, it does sound right faintfuzzies.

You don't mention here what strain ye are growing, if you know, i suggest doing some searches, here and on Google for same on other forums, look for grow diaries/reports on the strain you are growing to see what others mention about how much feed generally, or specifically if that strain is greedy or light on N, etc.

Peace.

Here the tuff thing. Im growing out 5 different strains, I decided to use my free seeds i got when i ordered to do my learning grow . I now know this is a bad idea. it is very hard to get one strain dialed in never mind 5 diffferent ones dialed in . so i keep on learning for sure .. Im going to try what the AN guy said and also follow the nute program he told me to follow . as just see whats happens .. Hope for the best

Alot to learn

Thanks for your imput......

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Advanced Nutrients 2-Part:
0 ml of Grow, 6-8ml of Micro and 15-20ml of Bloom per gallon of Reverse Osmosis water.

Do a search on the net for "Ask Lucas" and read the entire thread. You'll find this mix of the AN line a much more balanced nutrition for cannabis plants, for all your strains. The only thing you'll find you need to adjust is the strength for each strain. No real need for anything else until you get your strains and room dialed in right. Keep it simple, you'll love it.

Stay Safe!

 

[StrontiumDog]

Indeed, on a first run it isn't the best idea, 5x all different.

But, life is a learning curve, as i always say, we all had to learn in the beginning, it's all valuable experience and ye were wise enough to learn on freebies, not exactly bagseed but the notion was sound.

Ye've the right kind of spirit obviously and an enquiring mind, some would say the deep end is where one learns fastest, through necessity.

You'll do fine faintfuzzies, just keep on observing the plants for signs of trouble and asking questions if things change and you aren't sure.

Sure you'll be up there with the best of us in no time.

Peace.

[Ps. Remember to keep notes, for future reference, things will soon become second nature, but notes are always wise.]

 

[faintfuzzies]

Update,

I think i might be on the right track now . yesterday morning I found that one plant had a bunch of lower leave turning yellow,pale green yellowish and i know that a nitrogen issue. this told me my ppm need to be raise for sure.I been wimpy about giving more nutes without knowing what i was doing wrong,now i think i understand well anyway a week or so ago i have found out i was feeding to often i did a flush and kept the ppm low around 300ppm( this must be why my leaves on one plant are getting that yellowish color, these plants are 12 inch high or just about ,so i decided to up the ppm to 750ppm and i also changed my ph to what AN said to and that was around 6.3ph . I think it might be ok another week will show for sure the yellowed leaves did not turn green i figure the damage was done but the new growth looks decent no issues except a slight tip yellow almost not an issue. i read somewhere that when using AN it might be a common issue. so i did 750 ppm yesterday and next time i will water with just 6.3 ph water and then i will wait a few days til next feeding and up the ppm maybe 75 -100ppm more .

oh yea i also think its time to transplant from the 4.75 buckets to a 7 gall bucket ( last container) wait a week and then flower them. when i decide to flower should i do a flush before i start using flower nutes ?

also on a different note, I decided that being i have awful spine issues, soil or soiless growing is a bit more work than i care to deal with being im in pain alot all this transplanting , i think i might do recirclating DWC buckets system and im going to build my own, I just dont know where to find the square buckets and the square mesh buckets that fit inside . any one know of a good cheap supplier?

 

[stihgnobevoli]

seedling = up till the cotyledons fall off or around the second set of true leaves. mature plant is when the nodes start to alternate or preflowers, or branching takes off, when the branches are branching. flowering is when there are pistils growing from the ENDS of the nodes and branches. everything before flowering starts is vegetative stage, everything after flowering starts is flower stage.

 

[StrontiumDog]

Update,


also on a different note, I decided that being i have awful spine issues, soil or soiless growing is a bit more work than i care to deal with being im in pain alot all this transplanting , i think i might do recirclating DWC buckets system and im going to build my own, I just dont know where to find the square buckets and the square mesh buckets that fit inside . any one know of a good cheap supplier?

Great that things are improving for ye.

Regards buckets.

Look on Ebay, USA or UK, wherever ye are, you won't find cheaper.

Search terms "square plastic plant pots", variants of, and click look at sellers other items/shops for better idea of ranges offered.

I got my square pots from Trade-hydro (Yorkshire) back in 2008, only because i got my blue Envirolight there, as was cheaper than they were on Ebay back then, with saved P&P in the order for both, the pots worked out a couple quid cheaper.

Now i would just buy from Ebay as some places are free or minimal P&P.

Ebay now has a lot of hydro oriented shops selling all ye need though, online shops have really escalated in number in recent years and hydroculture equipment and materials etc is one boom area, and soil grow products etc, i'd always advise everybody check Ebay for grow materials and products first, before ordering elsewhere, there may be a couple of exceptions, but generally Ebay is the first port of call price wise, and paying via paypal i consider better for some people as that's what CC card statements say, whereas grow product/hydro product online stores are a bit more obvious as to nature of purchases when company names appear on bank statements etc (Ignore the Paypal paranoia some come out with, it's nonsense.).

Peace.

 

[Stress_test]

seedling = up till the cotyledons fall off or around the second set of true leaves. mature plant is when the nodes start to alternate or preflowers, or branching takes off, when the branches are branching. flowering is when there are pistils growing from the ENDS of the nodes and branches. everything before flowering starts is vegetative stage, everything after flowering starts is flower stage.

Wow I'm surprised to read this question asked here: On a cannabis growing site with so many "experienced growers".

And I'm rather shocked after reading so many different ideas about it... This information is usually among the first things learned in a botany class, it's in every cannabis growing book and is plastered all over the internet.

Germination: the embryonic leaves (cotyledons) unfold. They are a pair of small, somewhat oval, simple leaves, now green with chlorophyll to absorb the life-giving light. Germination is complete.

The second pair of leaves begins the seedling stage. They are set opposite each other and usually have a single blade. They differ from the embryonic leaves by their larger size, spearhead shape, and serrated margins. With the next pair of leaves that appears, usually each leaf has three blades and is larger still. A basic pattern has been set. Each new set of leaves will be larger, with a higher number of blades per leaf until, depending on variety, they reach their maximum number, often nine or 11. The seedling stage is completed within four to six weeks.

Next begins the vegetative stage. This is the cannabis life cycle period of maximum growth. The cannabis plant can grow no faster than the rate that its leaves can produce energy for new growth. Each day more leaf tissue is created, increasing the overall capacity for growth. With excellent growing conditions, Cannabis has been known to grow six inches a day, although the rate is more commonly one to two inches. The number of blades on each leaf begins to decline during the middle of the vegetative stage. Then the arrangement of the leaves on the stem (phyllotaxy) changes from the usual opposite to alternate. The internodes (stem space from one pair of leaves to the next, which had been increasing in length) begin to decrease, and the growth appears to be thicker. Branches which appeared in the axils of each set of leaves grow and shape the plant to its characteristic form. The vegetative stage is usually completed in the third to fifth months of growth.

The vegetative duration can be directly influenced by expanding or restricting root space. Plants with abundant root space will generally continue the vegetative stage until they occupy the available space OR flowering is triggered by regulating the light cycle.
In my experience: This is a common mistake made by many growers: Plant containers being too large and unoccupied by roots when flipped 12/12. It is the cause of many issues in the flowering process, lock-out, nitrogen toxicity and later deficiencies are all directly effected.
Because the plant and roots are still in their maximum growth stages and all of the plants energy and resources are being spent to expand. Then when flowering is triggered; the plant tries to shift modes and produce flowers. But all of it's resources are being expended trying to occupy the available root space so the plant is forced to strip mobile nutrients from elsewhere in the plant to survive.

 

[KrazyieFosho]

less is more keep it simple 7g maxibloom from veg to flower 15 bucks a bag... plants love it dont feed ur plants from the back of a bottle look at them and let them tell u what they want start low and u can always add more start 2 high and meh u already know what happens i let my ph swing from 5.5-6.0 in aero balance off at 5.8

 

[GrinStick]

Wow I'm surprised to read this question asked here: On a cannabis growing site with so many "experienced growers".

And I'm rather shocked after reading so many different ideas about it... This information is usually among the first things learned in a botany class, it's in every cannabis growing book and is plastered all over the internet.

Germination: the embryonic leaves (cotyledons) unfold. They are a pair of small, somewhat oval, simple leaves, now green with chlorophyll to absorb the life-giving light. Germination is complete.

The second pair of leaves begins the seedling stage. They are set opposite each other and usually have a single blade. They differ from the embryonic leaves by their larger size, spearhead shape, and serrated margins. With the next pair of leaves that appears, usually each leaf has three blades and is larger still. A basic pattern has been set. Each new set of leaves will be larger, with a higher number of blades per leaf until, depending on variety, they reach their maximum number, often nine or 11. The seedling stage is completed within four to six weeks.

Next begins the vegetative stage. This is the cannabis life cycle period of maximum growth. The cannabis plant can grow no faster than the rate that its leaves can produce energy for new growth. Each day more leaf tissue is created, increasing the overall capacity for growth. With excellent growing conditions, Cannabis has been known to grow six inches a day, although the rate is more commonly one to two inches. The number of blades on each leaf begins to decline during the middle of the vegetative stage. Then the arrangement of the leaves on the stem (phyllotaxy) changes from the usual opposite to alternate. The internodes (stem space from one pair of leaves to the next, which had been increasing in length) begin to decrease, and the growth appears to be thicker. Branches which appeared in the axils of each set of leaves grow and shape the plant to its characteristic form. The vegetative stage is usually completed in the third to fifth months of growth.

The vegetative duration can be directly influenced by expanding or restricting root space. Plants with abundant root space will generally continue the vegetative stage until they occupy the available space OR flowering is triggered by regulating the light cycle.
In my experience: This is a common mistake made by many growers: Plant containers being too large and unoccupied by roots when flipped 12/12. It is the cause of many issues in the flowering process, lock-out, nitrogen toxicity and later deficiencies are all directly effected.
Because the plant and roots are still in their maximum growth stages and all of the plants energy and resources are being spent to expand. Then when flowering is triggered; the plant tries to shift modes and produce flowers. But all of it's resources are being expended trying to occupy the available root space so the plant is forced to strip mobile nutrients from elsewhere in the plant to survive.

^^^^what he said^^^^