What's your go-to breeder nowadays?

[ojd]

Your problem is that you expect high returns. A normal business has 5 % profit. To make a living one million euro revenue per year is not uncommon.

A single seed for 5 € is a ripoff by any standards that excludes black market profitability.

Start your own company up as you know nothing about the industry and cost associated with it.

Seedbanks take 50% so your $20 seed pack you get 10 $
Then tax man wants 25% of your $10 so you get $7.50
Then you need to pay for supplies, goodbye $7.50 and take $5 a pack if your lucky .

Making seeds in a spare tent is fine and fun to give seeds away and we all start like that.
But down the line cost evolve , and no way yo charged less than $50 a pack and survive unless your Greenhouse seeds nd pumping out 1000's of packs.

Many guys from this website and many others used to spout this same stuff and started up seed co's and sell them same price as me now.
I hardly put my prices up at all 15 years , started at $80 a pack 15 years ago and my normal range over 100 varieties Regular and Feminized lines i charge $90., $10 increase in 15 years , not that bad ?

 

[Orange's Greenhouse]

Seedbanks take 50% so your $20 seed pack you get 10 $
Then tax man wants 25% of your $10 so you get $7.50
Then you need to pay for supplies, goodbye $7.50 and $5 a pack of your luck

Do you even read what you are writing. First you display a gross ignorance of basic genetics and now show little understanding of basic accounting.
You don't pay tax on revenue, only on profits. VAT is not charged in B2B transactions.
50 % gross profit is quite good. Usually you have a 3 or 4 layered supply chain. 20-30 % gross profit is more common.

That other people charge the same price shows what the market bears, not what the product costs to produce. Value based pricing is a thing.

 

[ojd]

Since you put yourself in the spotlight I think it's fair to point this out.

Isn't what you said the definition of unstable lines?
When you buy any other seed, be it heirloom tomatoes or high productivity wheat, you get uniform expression for a very small price.
With your material you even say yourself that only select few in each pack are worth their money. And with 50 € for your pack, 10 plants to grow to find something worthwhile (costs 500 €) and all the time required to do the work a breeder is supposed to do.
That is some expensive seed!

And be honest. How much breeding is actually going on? You have 50-100 strains on offer. Any breeder, working with anything else than cannabis, laughs you out of the door if you have anything less than 200 plants (per line!). And it takes years to stabilize a line.

Tomato seed from your garden centre is not Connoisseur tomato line that people who hunt out specialist tomatoes go for , and is same old garbage.

We small time breeders working on different things, they bulk , uniformity etc , i work for Taste/High only, Apples and Oranges, world's apart.
You can get quality Genetics for cheap 100% but thats usually people starting out , i gave them away for free for a few years online before i ever sold a pack.

These aint tomatoes so you cant compare apples to Oranges ?

I never said you will only find a few amd rest garbage from a pack at all ? , i said a few will be the special keepers as we call them , we all have different favourites even my friends and crew , so customer picks best 1 or 2 ajd keeps a clone to run again and again for years and all for $100 , not bad at all in my eyes, if he finds something worth keeping around for only $100 ?

 

[Hiddenjems]

People complaining about prices all the time! If someone has the money to buy seeds and time and space to hunt through a pack, they shall do it or not. You can find gold in pirate packs or bulk too, or bagseeds. If you buy packs from people that don’t lie what they used in creating new cultivars, it can always be worth it. If you start a company and want to be different and more special than others, you should hunt through multiple packs and not just buy elite clones, because everyone can do that and you just offer what already exists

You’ll usually find a better keeper buying cheap bulk seeds and popping 100 of them than you will in a $200 pack of 8-10 seeds.

 

[ojd]

You’ll usually find a better keeper buying cheap bulk seeds and popping 100 of them than you will in a $200 pack of 8-10 seeds.

Quote which companies you find and actually done this with, as talk is talk.

Hype is crazy these days , and some well known hype machines can charge whatever they like and sell out no problem as they got a marketing and cheque book like no other

More than $100 is alot i agree and more than 1 should pay , unless they find it rare or worth more value , somethings are worth more than other things.

I offer a triple list of my rarest strains id rather not part with and charge Triple price as there will be a tiny clientele for this work, and to me they worth more than $ to me and 10 x more than the price i charge, in my eyes, if you find the special keepers ive found from this line its worth 3 packs worth to get the winner

 

[DaEarl73]

You’ll usually find a better keeper buying cheap bulk seeds and popping 100 of them than you will in a $200 pack of 8-10 seeds.

If you know the source and have space maybe, but that’s a big thing. Prefer to get things that I have a better chance for a winner, but I do both, I pop my holiday seeds, but because of cross pollination it can be literally anything that I can find there, it’s more of a gambling! As said before guys, buy what you want, better expect nothing

 

[ojd]

Do you even read what you are writing. First you display a gross ignorance of basic genetics and now show little understanding of basic accounting.
You don't pay tax on revenue, only on profits. VAT is not charged in B2B transactions.
50 % gross profit is quite good. Usually you have a 3 or 4 layered supply chain. 20-30 % gross profit is more common.

That other people charge the same price shows what the market bears, not what the product costs to produce. Value based pricing is a thing.

OK you made $10 after seed bank took $10 , whats your profit to be taxed on anyway , not alot at all .
You got rent to pay to , plus these websites all want you to take and advertising package to , man does the $ fly away from your $20 , trust me we all want to charge less but its near impossible these days to charge less than $90, especially working with other seedbanks, and they dont want you to charge less than they sell your seeds for , if you charge $20 to direct customers the seedbanks want to retail for $20 also

 

[ojd]

$20 pack guys should practice what they preach and start up making and selling seeds, like many members on here have done over the 20 years i been here , and ZERO of them charge $20 at seedbank EVER.

There definitely room for the cheap packs crowd , they a big part of the seed buying crowd , look at Greenhouse seeds etc , some packs are crazy cheap but move a truck load and it adds up

 

[El Pollo Diablo]

But ojd, why dont you work for free, like Jesus did?

 

[revegeta666]

You’ll usually find a better keeper buying cheap bulk seeds and popping 100 of them than you will in a $200 pack of 8-10 seeds.

It's sad to say but I agree with this. The more plants I grow, the more it becomes apparent how much weight pure luck holds in the breeding equation, compared to actual skill or knowledge. As long as the breeding material is good, you can pull a lucky ticket. Cheap bulk seeds are still made using elite clones. I have grown several great plants over the years from bulk seeds that I got for free with my grow shop orders. And had a lot of packs of legendary strains from reputable companies that cost between 100-200 € for 10 regular seeds, where I only found mediocre plants, if not worse. By the way, the shitty bulk fem seeds we get for free with our orders in Spain, are the same that are being repackaged and sold by many big companies mentioned in this thread. Especially the dutch ones.

Nowadays it's rare for me to pay for seeds unless I want to try something I have no access to, for some particular reason. The more I grow my friends' seeds, and my own, made only for fun, the less impressed I am by professional breeders' work.

 

[Wolverine97]

Seriously - dont buy them in Amsterdam. Unless its Black Friday. Or you are set to do it.
The Strains you buy depend on what u need.

Without any specs: Nobody i know has ever badmouthed Barney`s Farm.

Well I will badmouth them then. Barney's Farm sucks, white label BS is all they do these days.

 

[Orange's Greenhouse]

trust me we all want to charge less but its near impossible these days

Instead of learning the basics or work on your business you waste your time arguing on forums.

 

[Wolverine97]

OK you made $10 after seed bank took $10 , whats your profit to be taxed on anyway , not alot at all .
You got rent to pay to , plus these websites all want you to take and advertising package to , man does the $ fly away from your $20 , trust me we all want to charge less but its near impossible these days to charge less than $90, especially working with other seedbanks, and they dont want you to charge less than they sell your seeds for , if you charge $20 to direct customers the seedbanks want to retail for $20 also

I have no issues with you, OJD. Just want to say that first. But I think the days of $100+ packs for hybrids is on the way out. Not immediately, but in the near future. Unless someone is selling highly worked, stable lines, or reworks of older special lines, I just don't see it lasting. Maybe as a niche, but not big picture. Tons of guys now are selling hybrids made from legit elites, in the 40-75 range, from Bodhi, to Doc D, and lots of smaller guys. There are just too many people making/selling seeds now.

Hopefully people adjust accordingly as things continue to change, and change it will. Personally, I think people like you should put most of your focus into really stabilizing traits in your most popular lines. SSSDH, Grateful Casey, etc... I think that kind of work would still be able to pull the higher prices, if the work is done right. If I knew I could grab a pack of either of those two examples, and definitely find what I'm looking for, I wouldn't mind paying 100-150. But I'd have to know for a reasonable certainty that I will find what I am looking for.

By the way, I did find a very special pheno in the Grateful Casey's. But it didn't have much smell while growing, and wasn't really similar to Casey Jones, so I didn't clone it. That was a huge mistake, it turned out to be one of the most unique terpene expressions I have ever smoked, with a joyous high. Tried to reveg it, but she didn't make it, unfortunately.

 

[Fuel]

A poly hybrid will release more phenotypes as more family involved , but will show pheno variation like all other lines unless certain lines is dominating things.

First, showing some respect. Your style still your style, but it's like people discovered it just yesterday over here. Sorry guys, but i find the pack's move quite hypocrite, beside the legit debate. Not elegant.

I'm not pretending to don't understand what you mean, but i'm really pissed about this "poly-hybrid" langage abuse madness over all places since 5 years. Let's make it short.

In the case of a monohybridism, let's say only a very narrowed group of linked traits are worked/stabilized. It give : the whole genotype is high in limonene, but from various shapes and their variations.

In the case of a polyhybridism, let's say heptahybridism, you're working on 7 sets at a time. Basically it's the true definition of a stabilized line ^^

And folks are using this word to legitimately complaint about the "beta seeds" they get for three digits now. Somehow, it's a delicious ouroboros.

People complaining about prices all the time!

It's imho why the main white labels are ruling the scene now. It was impossible to admit as hypothesis 20 years ago.

You can find gold in pirate packs or bulk too, or bagseeds.

Promoting breeding is a real concern for me. Your sentence is real, and i use it a lot to comment the irrational behaviors that are more focused to source like squirrels, over to just work what they have ^^

But lies on the hard part is not productive either. It require some methodism, to build momentum with the line and a bunch more failures that it sound.

Finding was never a problem, it's basically quantitative lol Vaulting it in new genotypes, that's the real game.

And no, it's not organically acquired beside true "urban farms". Their constraints make it mechanical, but for the lambda 4x4 scale ... it's a matter of referential. Always. You feel it even more strong now in the recent events.

Now to loop on elite cuts and high tier sources ... rationally we can't say that it matter lol Many examples of releases using the same genetic material, but with a minimal number of decent releases. Specially in the actual, saturated, market. I'm less categorical on this matter, the "bud on the table" still my approach on this subject. A cut or a valuable pack of seeds is not like an app too; having isn't mechanically being able to use at its full potential.

If you cross two stable lines you get uniform seeds.

Considering what you wrote around that, this little portion should have some prevention against easy-thinking.

Folks today don't make any difference between uniformity and stability, by example.

At some point, "we" were asking stable seeds. And a bunch later, "we" are asking uniform seeds-to-smoke. An autofem being the pinnacle of this caricature. Ultimate one-shot seed.

How can you call a 2nd or 4th generation line "worked"?

You're too rude. Screening matter, specially with wasted lines or even a landrace to whip. 4 generations, it's work. Bad or good, it's another subject imho.

Why not, at the opposite, promote actions rather than ... pushing the perceived hardiness. Let me explain.

An example : I want to grow again a classic (to don't heat any debate) but the label don't care much, the releases are pricey and dry to screen.

Someone aside sell F3s well screened and in better shape than the original ... no hesitation for me.
These F3s fall within your previous statement.

Like the other sentence, i'm just expanding something you passed fast to stay clear.
The aren't IBLs, but freaking usefull sometimes and worth the ride.

A poly hybrid will release more phenotypes as more family involved , but will show pheno variation like all other lines unless certain lines is dominating things.

Two genotypes that contain mostly heterozygous phenotypes, will not make mechanically a stable line.
Unless they cross the path of a genotype that contain mostly homozygous phenotypes, to beat their asses.

Same thing said ... just this damned word fucked it all again.

Now let's add something to be fair. My formulation is quite generalist too by the simple fact that none traits is quoted. And their number.

Let's take a stupid example, clowns are always easier to understand.

A line for arid zones : most of the work will be on the roots / water uptake balance. This line can be tagged "stabilized IBL", without even "showing" it with the floral part or even the shapes.

It's walking on eggs anyway with these discussions, there is always cascading factors.

When bodhi packs cost 40-45 usd on average, and we know bodhi uses elite cuts, there's no reason to pay a cent above that

It's not against you at all, but i'm regularly heated to be represented as a "cost-co wave" customer on these discussions. Boddhi fame and legend, respect, factually the most loved breeder ever ... zero problem with that.

But I'm one of these customers willing to pay as much that 5 time the boddhi's mark, but to get back the 100% high tier i was used to get. It's math for me, and linked with my comment on "F3s". To hunt my favorites phenos of Jack, it cost me each time 1K/1.5K from mothership ... replace it with an unique pack of 250 and i'm your devoted customer for life. Simple.

Bro , the market is open for all you guys to start up and offer $20 seed packs , there plenty of room for breeders like that

That's a fact. And we are talking from the "home of Nirvana", just for the polite salute linked with the discussion ^^

I still think my packs are reasonably priced and like I say I expect you find something nice from just 1 pack ( if your want the Grail pheno obviously multiple packs like a Tom Hill Haze 100 pack pop )

The prices is the main subject of the wealthy industrials; it's an hypocrite debate regularly thrown at the face of little labels. Now the 3pack of a fem you can't even clone isn't cheap either. And it sell well obviously ... prices is a fake debate in a saturated market imho.

 

[Orange's Greenhouse]

To hunt my favorites phenos of Jack, it cost me each time 1K/1.5K from mothership

That's exactly my point. You pay top dollar for these packs that are supposedly worked but odj admits it himself: they are a crapshoot and the customer is expected to invest heavily into picking a clone that can then be turned into a mother plant (which adds even more cost).
I want to grow from seed and get good product. No messing around with pheno hunting, mother plants or DIY tissue culture to save that one elusive nice cultivar.

And that also ties in with my comment you quoted. They are not worked on by a breeder who knows what he is doing. Same thing with the supposedly F3. Is it really F3 or F100 given that it's a domesticated landrace. In the case of the F3, do the three generations with very limited plant count really add much to improve the situation? IBLs take 10-20 generations to stabilize and then you have to backcross it to get some vigor back.
Breeding is work, it's expensive and farmers invest 10 % of their revenue in seed. But in return they get a high quality product.
Cannabis customers get something that they are supposed to work themself but praise the pollen chuckers.

 

[mack 10]

Hey ambertrichonme,

didnt you work for Flying Dutchmen in the past?

Is somewhere some Swazi Safari or Real Mccoy left??

Thank you again

I always had my eye on a couple of their varieties but never got around to them.
The Real McCoy and and another one, I'm blanking on the name..
Something Sunrise maybe?
Had great fat cola plant in the pic/ catalogue.

 

[ojd]

I have no issues with you, OJD. Just want to say that first. But I think the days of $100+ packs for hybrids is on the way out. Not immediately, but in the near future. Unless someone is selling highly worked, stable lines, or reworks of older special lines, I just don't see it lasting. Maybe as a niche, but not big picture. Tons of guys now are selling hybrids made from legit elites, in the 40-75 range, from Bodhi, to Doc D, and lots of smaller guys. There are just too many people making/selling seeds now.

Hopefully people adjust accordingly as things continue to change, and change it will. Personally, I think people like you should put most of your focus into really stabilizing traits in your most popular lines. SSSDH, Grateful Casey, etc... I think that kind of work would still be able to pull the higher prices, if the work is done right. If I knew I could grab a pack of either of those two examples, and definitely find what I'm looking for, I wouldn't mind paying 100-150. But I'd have to know for a reasonable certainty that I will find what I am looking for.

By the way, I did find a very special pheno in the Grateful Casey's. But it didn't have much smell while growing, and wasn't really similar to Casey Jones, so I didn't clone it. That was a huge mistake, it turned out to be one of the most unique terpene expressions I have ever smoked, with a joyous high. Tried to reveg it, but she didn't make it, unfortunately.

Yeah I hear that but I won't ever offer cheaper than I do as I got bills to pay, and the bills for everything to grow goes up year after year, so prices need to also.
There are mass companies who can produce seed cheaper on a large scale wether outsourced or even in house but cheaper to produce in bulk and legal environments.
Some of us still in fully illegal environments and much harder to achieve than others in Spain and USA.

Also how can you stabilize an S1 , it's as close as you will ever get want to the clone used( Grateful Casey S1 I offer, SSSDH S1 I offer) and several other S1's, there nothing to stabilize, that would just be working towards a certain pheno , and the S1 is the winning pheno selfed.

People want to grab the hybrids or S1's of the special clone/plant we make into Feminized seeds , not bx's.

Regular lines your working towards a certain phenotype and in my opinion can lose alot , and turn into yoir own line ( far away from clone your trying to work towards)as your relying on the person doing the line work knowing which pheno ( winning pheno) he is working towards, if he never even tried the winning pheno he just working towards whatever he likes ( and I'm not working towards anything but taste/Potency) and towards the winning Terp/High i know and have sampled and amazing looking to.
Bx are great but how many projects turn out exactly like the clone only the started with trying to lock it in, not saying not great , but is it a clone like plant of the Original ? , or just a great pheno on it own, but definitely no twin of the clone only.
Some strains work is easy as strains are dominant so can bx easy and have a great line , but most people makking a great line and real nice work , but is it exactly or even real close to the clone only you started the project with ? , 90% times no.

Every strain I use like any good seedmaker is something special ( I know we all think that) but I been around the scene alot and sampled alot more than your average Joe, and work towards superior phenos/Strains I've sampled in my lifetime.

 

[El Timbo]

Also how can you stabilize an S1 , it's as close as you will ever get want to the clone used( Grateful Casey S1 I offer, SSSDH S1 I offer) and several other S1's, there nothing to stabilize, that would just be working towards a certain pheno , and the S1 is the winning pheno selfed.

Doesn't that depend on how true breeding it is? I mean - if it's a poly hybrid, or even a real F1, won't the S1 progeny be heterogeneous?