What's Up?

[Bababooey]

The bill that's waiting to be signed by Quinn prohibits political contributions by mmj organizations/businesses.
I dont think there's anything in the bill about plant limits for the cultivation centers.
Patients can be issued up to 2.5 oz every two weeks, so maybe the regulators will have cultivation centers limited in size to the number of patients they provide for?

 

[Julian]

The bill that's waiting to be signed by Quinn prohibits political contributions by mmj organizations/businesses.

I think it goes quite further than that actually, have taken the week off (finally) from it, but, think goes to any/every party with any interest, in any organization, but, that means very little in the end. (On the flip side, I could think of 10 ways right off the top of my head to get around that one, and, direct compensation (monetary) not the only aspect. I do like that section, but make no mistake, will play, I believe, a role, unquestionably, in approvals, specifically a district 1 cultivation center. I would be truly shocked if any legitimate applicant actually got that one.

I dont think there's anything in the bill about plant limits for the cultivation centers.

There are no mention of any plant limits, nor do I believe there will be.(In Dept. of AG follow ups).

Patients can be issued up to 2.5 oz every two weeks, so maybe the regulators will have cultivation centers limited in size to the number of patients they provide for?

I don't think there is any sound way to do so, especially, as I think you mentioned, due to a lag time in building up the patient count (statewide), combined with dispensary locations (and don't forget any gaps in timeline).

There are countless little gaps currently in the bill as written. (Countless, affecting all aspects from production through sale, operators to patient).

 

[Bababooey]

Greasing the palm is a time honored tradition in this state, but the local politicos may want to keep their hands out of anything to do with mmj, else they may run afoul of the feds two favorite targets: politicians and drugs.
Still, as you said, there's a lot to be sorted out in the coming months.

With only 22 cultivation centers, it's hard to imagine any of them could make do with plant counts less than 1000, if you include clones and veggers.

Does anyone think that greenhouses would be better for a cultivation center than a warehouse? Less stealthy, but it might be less costly utility wise...

 

[Julian]

Greasing the palm is a time honored tradition in this state, but the local politicos may want to keep their hands out of anything to do with mmj, else they may run afoul of the feds two favorite targets: politicians and drugs.
Still, as you said, there's a lot to be sorted out in the coming months.

I'm not necessarily referring to monetary compensation, in fact, I think it will be humorous in the sense everyone and their brother trying to call in their favors. No money, just overdue favors being touched on, etc, and, I dont think it's going to occur on a local level. (Has to be power to reach the approval )

All of course just speculation....but when one of the largest metros in the country is only assigned one....well....

Does anyone think that greenhouses would be better for a cultivation center than a warehouse? Less stealthy, but it might be less costly utility wise...

I, personally, would love an out ..(or an in )....

Or both .......

There are substantial costs that come with either from ground up though (license prep, security requirements, etc), so out would not necessarily be a significant savings/reduction of capital...(prep, supplies, greenhouses, security, processing area(s)....(trim, dry, cure, storage, etc)..remember.....can't just pack it up and haul it off somewhere ...security and tracking has to follow chop to sale....

Prep, security, numbers, greenhouses, supplies, staff, processing area(s), all with approved security measures in place, and tracked from "seed to sale"...so....

Not a fraction as cheap as I have heard some discussing as of late.....(There are, of course, 100 more variables and strategies which can come into play regarding the above though, which can make it quite a bit easier monetarily....)

 

[ILL-IN-GROWER]

It would almost seem like getting the app for a CC in the middle of nowhere might be better off than scoring one in the metro areas. I didn't remember reading them, but assuming there are no restrictions on CC's selling to any dispensary, it might be much more cost effective to set up shop down south with a massive greenhouse/dry barn and ship it up north. Survival of the dankest, and let the dispensarys worry about being in that prime location...

I can see it now... A corridor of glass houses growing (or trying to grow) high grade dope, all up and down 55 and 57

 

[Bababooey]

Right, it's not so much what you know, but who you know, as the saying goes.

I understand that greenhouses might not represent much if any cost savings over traditional warehouse grows, particularly if you have to construct the greenhouses from the ground up. And even greenhouses need supplemental lighting, when it's cloudy or during the winter, when the days are short, and need heating during the winter as well. So if you really wanted to use the sun as your only lighting source, probably outdoors is the only way to go, but then you're limited in your growing season, have to deal with exposure to elements, etc. IL is like 90% arable farmland, and I could see a CC being a farm with a few acres of trees. 100% unstealthy though, but maybe the most cost-efficient solution to setting up a cultivation center...

 

[Julian]

I understand that greenhouses might not represent much if any cost savings over traditional warehouse grows, particularly if you have to construct the greenhouses from the ground up. And even greenhouses need supplemental lighting, when it's cloudy or during the winter, when the days are short, and need heating during the winter as well. So if you really wanted to use the sun as your only lighting source, probably outdoors is the only way to go, but then you're limited in your growing season, have to deal with exposure to elements, etc. IL is like 90% arable farmland, and I could see a CC being a farm with a few acres of trees. 100% unstealthy though, but maybe the most cost-efficient solution to setting a cultivation center...

Of course, the above presents endless options and possibilities.

"The "locked and enclosed" issue may indeed come into play, making any outdoor operation greenhouse(s) right off the bat.

I think this touches upon such a wide array of variables, how ould we possibly begin to address.

One thing to touch upon is a sizable out/GH op will require, as above, processing facilities, and again, not simply a matter of dry/trim, but also cure/storage, again, which must be monitored/tracked, subject to all dictated security protocol established. Indoor facility a perpetual scenario, a cumulative annual volume, but much more manageable regarding processing, whereas, out, of course, processing becomes a much more significant issue as addressing a far (far ) greater volume.

There are literally endless ways to analyze both options, cost of course being the primary, but not the only factor.

One thing that comes into play that I have been addressing quite a bit lately with many is the wide variety of design and execution strategies (in or out, in vs. out) that fall/can fall within certain budgets and limitations. (More options than most realize on the surface.)

Most overlook numerous options. For starters, staggered deps, and we could go from there.

The options are endless.....an exciting time to be certain .

 

[Bababooey]

Good points.
I would think any significant outdoor cultivation center would have to have secure fencing around the crops, including barb or razor wire, to keep out rippers and snoops.
Processing areas are necessary and need to be adequate for the op. I recall reading one of the large warehouse grow threads on this site, 100k+ watts, and the grower said during harvest and trim, with a grow that size, you will never keep in all the smell, no matter what sort of odor control you use.
Which I think is not true, I think it's possible to control the smell even if you're chopping a hundred stinky 6 ft trees, but maybe his odor control system couldn't handle it...

 

[Julian]

Good points.
I would think any significant outdoor cultivation center would have to have secure fencing around the crops, including barb or razor wire, to keep out rippers and snoops.

In addition to "locked and enclosed", hence greenhouses (enclosed). Such automatically changes budget, and, area known for summers with extremely high humidity some years. (GH professionals will begin to address ventilation, cooling, and, every sentence pushing a budget further, when open would overcome many issues to begin with, even if only the ability to have raised sides, especially in situations with immense open space on all sides of property.

(There have been times when I have sat, and surveyed sites. Just sat.......and watched......the airflow.....the leaves of each and every plant top to bottom....for hours... Sites with expansive open space typically have wind(s) which push right through from top to bottom.....sometimes for hours on end ...(the entire garden, every plant, top to bottom)...No one can tell me there is enclosed ventilation that can provide that....

I'd prefer an out myself for many reasons.....we'll see.

Processing areas are necessary and need to be adequate for the op. I recall reading one of the large warehouse grow threads on this site, 100k+ watts, and the grower said during harvest and trim, with a grow that size, you will never keep in all the smell, no matter what sort of odor control you use.
Which I think is not true, I think it's possible to control the smell even if you're chopping a hundred stinky 6 ft trees, but maybe his odor control system couldn't handle it...

Short and sweet: I just worked on something here everything was in line, everything seemingly fine, but, long story short, complaints from nearby led to a discussion in which "I think it's just seeping through the walls" (concrete) was the comment/analysis (I could see no other explanation actually....was sealed, enclosed, filtered.....logic would state filtering wasn't of course adequate, but inside certainly seemed such. Outside?.....nnnnnnah.....(For drying only....pre cut was fine)

I think the issue(s) with a larger outdoor commercial, is, as previous, not only processing space, but, again, dry, cure and storage. Drying racks/space for 1,000-2,000 units? ....storage for the same? (longer term), all falling within security guidelines?. No, this calls for more than a simple metal outbuilding....(But, again, carries various creative (but approved) options.

I had several conversations with various investors and groups this week which basically addressed the number of hours to be spent in future on phone addressing operational and compliance issues with appropriate authority(ies)

Strain dependent also, as always...

 

[Bababooey]

I hope the Dept of Agriculture, when they release their requirements for cultivation centers, would consider a fenced in outdoor farm a locked and enclosed facility.
Although outdoor plants, even well grown ones, tend to be more larfy/leafy than well-grown indoor ones.

That's interesting that you've run into the same odor control issues with the chop/dry.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=230838
Apparently this was a big warehouse grow in the Bronx that didn't have any odor problems whatsoever, according to neighbors. But maybe they didn't do the trim/dry at this location, although with a grow that size, transporting plants for processing off site seems like an extra security risk. But maybe thats what you do if even concrete walls can't keep the smell of sour diesel in...

 

[Julian]

Well......as it was indeed sealed, and proper filtration, the dissection of it, is that it must not have been (sealed) It was btw (textbook ECSD from everything I have ever seen, Chems, OG's also (Larry and some others, etc)

I dont think fenced will be considered "enclosed". ("Enclosed and locked" aspect.) We'll see. Depending on location, I don't think I would prefer public visibility, and certainly would desire not visible from the air for various reasons . We'll see.

Saw Bronx before, certain not taken offsite. Again, a lot strain dependent (odor). The above case?, yes, was the ultimate stank Was escaping somewhere...(concrete comment was from a third party....was very amusing to her therm state such )

 

[Bababooey]

Right on, Julian. I know Rezdog used to brag that the smell of his SDIBL could not be contained by concrete walls.
There was an article in High times from a bronx grower that might have been the one busted. The grower said he had a room just for odor control, which i think is common for these large indoor grows, a room just for air exchange/filtration.
I saw the Inside Man on CNN by Morgan Spurlock on mmj in Cali, he was taken to a warehouse grow (blindfolded). He saw a 50K room, and a separate room where the ballasts and ventilation/filters were lined up on the floor. Easier than hanging them i suppose.

Do you have any thoughts on the use of pesticides/fungicides on the plants, and what a provider's ethical and/or legal obligation is in disclosing what pesticides/fungicides have been used on the product to the consumer?
If for example you use only organic/'natural' pest and mold control, and organic nutes, you can call your product organic, even vegan if you went that route.

But when pest/mold issues become serious and require heavy duty chemical intervention, is it safe to use chemicals that are approved for fruits/vegetables, or do we need to use chemicals specifically approved for use on smoked plants (ie tobacco)?

Its not like at a grocery store they label what chemicals have been used on the fruits and vegetables i buy; heck, even the ones labeled organic may been been sprayed with some gnarly chemicals at some point.

 

[Julian]

Right on, Julian. I know Rezdog used to brag that the smell of his SDIBL could not be contained by concrete walls.

Well, the situation above and exchange was during a large hang/dry period also, and, I myself was surprised by the stank outside ....(interestingly enough, if we revisit the basics of packaging, it is indeed the case that everything is porous to a degree (including steel and concrete), and OTR's (Oxygen transmission rates). The flow of water a good example. Water will seek any path possible to pass through the same (and does)

Yeah......thy were scratching their head saying "must be seeping through the walls".......

I saw the Inside Man on CNN by Morgan Spurlock on mmj in Cali, he was taken to a warehouse grow (blindfolded). He saw a 50K room, and a separate room where the ballasts and ventilation/filters were lined up on the floor. Easier than hanging them i suppose.

No,No,No...where he was walking was the roof of the constructed room....all were mounted on the roof, and he was walking on the roof of the room.

On a different note, that was quite the underperforming op. They could have easily had double, if not triple on those tables. I was surprised actually how empty those tables/rooms were given the footprint. (I did note the current state, and allowed for "filling in", and, o...there was far too much empty space given the methods and operation(s)...)

Do you have any thoughts on the use of pesticides/fungicides on the plants, and what a provider's ethical and/or legal obligation is in disclosing what pesticides/fungicides have been used on the product to the consumer?

If for example you use only organic/'natural' pest and mold control, and organic nutes, you can call your product organic, even vegan if you went that route.

But when pest/mold issues become serious and require heavy duty chemical intervention, is it safe to use chemicals that are approved for fruits/vegetables, or do we need to use chemicals specifically approved for use on smoked plants (ie tobacco)?

Its not like at a grocery store they label what chemicals have been used on the fruits and vegetables i buy; heck, even the ones labeled organic may been been sprayed with some gnarly chemicals at some point.

A much more expansive topic...I think many operational issues can prevent such in the first place (especially in), and, do know many use such, and do know many do not disclose such, and in these endeavors, as is the case with all, it brings a wide variety of operators, with a equally wide variety of morals and ethics....(not to mention professional standards)..and, on a different, but related note, when addressing a limited number of cultivation centers, supply, demand and pricing issues, I think such will come into play. (The quality and standards of one operation making their product immeasurably more desirable than others, combined with production capacity, volume, and schedules of availability, etc.) 22 not a large number for an entire state, much less one with the potential patient counts.

I myself, due to events of late, and direction(s), have much more of a focus and pride on product quality than ever before. I always have, but lately, especially in true "professional" capacity, have found standards and pride reach an entirely new level. I dont think all see it in such a way, and know for a fact many do not. (I can in some ways understand...one gets overwhelmed by operation(s) management and day to day matters and their focus on so many different aspects of a operation...as I am sure is the case in many situations, in various industries and endeavors, but, in the end?.....it is indeed all about the quality of one's product/services. I do know the last with my "fingerprints" on it found a higher level of feedback from a wider audience than I have ever had, and it did mean(s) so much to me....many stating finest work I have ever done (30+/- yrs......best work they have ever seen....really moved me....

Illinois does call for IL. Dept. of Agriculture approval of all cultivation operations plans, so, I think this will find the above addressed, as well as potential inspection(s) by the same, etc.

 

[Bababooey]

No,No,No...where he was walking was the roof of the constructed room....all were mounted on the roof, and he was walking on the roof of the room.

On a different note, that was quite the underperforming op. They could have easily had double, if not triple on those tables. I was surprised actually how empty those tables/rooms were given the footprint. (I did note the current state, and allowed for "filling in", and, o...there was far too much empty space given the methods and operation(s)...)

A much more expansive topic...I think many operational issues can prevent such in the first place (especially in), and, do know many use such, and do know many do not disclose such, and in these endeavors, as is the case with all, it brings a wide variety of operators, with a equally wide variety of morals and ethics....(not to mention professional standards)..and, on a different, but related note, when addressing a limited number of cultivation centers, supply, demand and pricing issues, I think such will come into play. (The quality and standards of one operation making their product immeasurably more desirable than others, combined with production capacity, volume, and schedules of availability, etc.) 22 not a large number for an entire state, much less one with the potential patient counts.

I myself, due to events of late, and direction(s), have much more of a focus and pride on product quality than ever before. I always have, but lately, especially in true "professional" capacity, have found standards and pride reach an entirely new level. I dont think all see it in such a way, and know for a fact many do not. (I can in some ways understand...one gets overwhelmed by operation(s) management and day to day matters and their focus on so many different aspects of a operation...as I am sure is the case in many situations, in various industries and endeavors, but, in the end?.....it is indeed all about the quality of one's product/services. I do know the last with my "fingerprints" on it found a higher level of feedback from a wider audience than I have ever had, and it did mean(s) so much to me....many stating finest work I have ever done (30+/- yrs......best work they have ever seen....really moved me....

Illinois does call for IL. Dept. of Agriculture approval of all cultivation operations plans, so, I think this will find the above addressed, as well as potential inspection(s) by the same, etc.

Must have turned away from that part when they showed the ballasts and ventilation, didn't know they were on top of the grow room. That was one solid roof to hold all that equipment, but if the warehouse was divided into levels then all they would need to do would be to cut some holes between the floors to pass wires and ducting through. Not that that's easy either, but easier than building floors from scratch...

I agree, the vegging plants in there didn't look all that robust. Plants were what, 2 ft fall, with scraggly leaf coverage, not lush or full at all. Almost sickly looking, with dropping leaves. Maybe it was the strain, but lots of wasted canopy under those 50K worth of lights. I'm sure if they vegged out properly they would fill up that room nicely. Maybe they only ran 20-25K lights until the canopy filled out?

Ideally, no one wants to use powerful chems with toxic/carcinogenic warning labels on their crops, but when the powdery mildew, or spider mites, or root aphids, or even fungus gnats start peeping their heads, and within days spread like wildfire, then its a choice of use any measures necessary or lose this crop and probably your shirt as well.

Im not sure if the Dept of Agri will specify what pesticides/fungicides are approved for use on cannabis. Theres an IL Pesticide Act that governs use/sale of pesticides and also issues licenses for Pesticide Applicator/Operator. So pretty much they acknowledge that pesticides are necessary in modern agriculture they just want to make sure you use it correctly (prevent runoff, overuse, etc).

 

[hamstring]

Great discussion guys.

I don't see this bill getting a bunch of news time in my neck of the woods. Everything seems to have fallen silent lately.
Has anyone seen a concerted effort from the pro mj lobby ?

I googled it and nothing new since May 28th not sure if this is good or bad news. Maybe keeping this out of the mainstream news will help its efforts. A article in Huffington post seem to think quin was going to sign the pilot program.

 

[Bababooey]

Well, ccw got passed, licenses will start to be issued in 2014...
When is the mother effin mmj bill going to be passed??? Cmon Quinn, we all know you're a dead man walking, just sign the damn thing already...

 

[Julian]

Well, ccw got passed, licenses will start to be issued in 2014...
When is the mother effin mmj bill going to be passed??? Cmon Quinn, we all know you're a dead man walking, just sign the damn thing already...

Thanks for note on the CCW....need to complete my collection .....

Not yet..... .....I still need about 23 more days before passes .....

 

[hamstring]

ccw passing is great news. I know Quinn tired to veto the bill to add a bunch of stipulations but the general assembly overrode the veto.

One less thing on his plate but I am betting he still wants to get pension reform done before he gets to the pilot program bill.

I cant see him muddying up the water with anything else before pension reform. Actually pension reform may make him more of a dead duck if he gets anything through. I personally think it will help our chances of passing the pilot program.

 

[Bababooey]

Pension reform is much needed in IL, although as always the working class stiff who worked a govt job, expecting a pension, is going to get screwed.
Id be worried about the federal sentencing enhancements for carrying a firearm during a drug crime. They can stack that isht and send people away for decades just for the firearm part alone.
The mmj bill requires security around cultivation centers and dispensaries, but will the rules, when they are set forth by the various depts, say anything about armed security? I dont think other states specifically say security has to be armed, and from limited experience, security at such places are not visibly armed.

 

[hamstring]

I cant say with any conviction but if the grow location is on private property I would assume, like the ccw rule calls out, its up to the property owner whether or not guns can be carried. That address the state side of your statement but of course it doesn't address the more important federal side.

Since the ccw came out before the med MJ I wounder if they will take the time to incorporate some type of standards for this? What are the rules in all other med sates for concealed carry at a grow site??

If TV is any judge, which I know it isn't, I have seen guns at grow locations on "weed wars" before.

My own personal opinion is that much like you mentioned guns and weed can rack up some pretty long jail time.