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What's going wrong? 4th run in a row is scr*wed :(

Roadblock

Active member
Your flowering plants are still not feeding properly they are still suffering from whatever is going on, when going to 12 hrs that lowers the DLI which takes demand of them so they perk up, but its not operating anywhere near where they should be, lush velvet green, turgid and taking multiple feeds daily, Im going through the same deal and I don't know why and its doing my head in, every time my indoor plants start doing this I take them outside leave them on the exact same feed and within a day they are standing up and starting to go, within a week they color is back and they are powering.

And this in a room that has grown perfect plants and that's what does my head in I cant find a pattern other than they mess up early, I monitor everything and keep things within optimum range yet it keeps happening, I suspect it has something to with how the pot breaths indoors once they get the issue and it happens quickly like 24 hrs its then playing catchup, being the only clue I have is they don't dry out anywhere near as fast indoors until they are really praying how they should.

Ive got 3 small plants right now that did this and have bad lockout, droopy yellowing leaves burnt edges and purple stems, they are not looking for additives, its not PH Cal Mag or anything to do with their food, they have been inside for two weeks and sat there like stunned mullets doing nothing, I flushed them with plain water yesterday and put them outside, today they are praying, and the saturated pot is 1/2 dry where if I did that inside the pot would still be saturated heavy for a week. This is a 10x10 room with 250 ml air pumping in and 250ml air pumping out, it's a full room air exchange every minute.

This very same room grew these ( pics ) last run after a poor start taken outside then brought back in which is what frustrates me so much, Im going to try a little experiment with the next small plants by putting them in a 6inch pot and cutting a hole in the lid of a icecream container and make sure it's sealed around the pot, then drill a 1/4 inch hole into the container and poke an aerator tube in to force air through the pot and will see if that helps, it should make the pot breath a lot more.

Im a long time grower and have grown some beasts but this issue has plagued me for the last 2 yrs and Im fckd if I know why.
 

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Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
Did you stare at or record the bottoms of the potato slices for a good 30 seconds? I swore I had nothing until I fiiinally saw them after staring a loong time.
 

smirnoff420

Well-known member
Your flowering plants are still not feeding properly they are still suffering from whatever is going on, when going to 12 hrs that lowers the DLI which takes demand of them so they perk up, but its not operating anywhere near where they should be, lush velvet green, turgid

Yes. It is as if the damage is permanent. They are yellowing more and more from the bottom but when I give them more nutes, the tips curl and show burns. It seems like the nutes only go to the newer smaller leaves around the buds, those are dark green. But the fan leaves don't seem to take up much nutes if any at all.

Did you stare at or record the bottoms of the potato slices for a good 30 seconds? I swore I had nothing until I fiiinally saw them after staring a loong time.

Yes. For minutes, on all the slices and several times. Also checked with a jewellers magnifing glass and my phone's macro lens function. Couldn't see anything.

I've just put three more Silver Haze seeds into soil, as that strain seems to show the issue the most, I'll do more experimenting on them.
 

Roadblock

Active member
I just moved 6 plants that were outside, each one is healthy and in full turgor being feed once every 2 days outside, on moving these plants inside the grow room they have all gone sad within 24 hrs, wtf is causing this.

Why are they losing turgor, I have 250 ml air coming in and 250ml air going out of both centrifugal fans, I can also turn on another 150ml out totalling 400ml out making a lot of negative pressure that pulls the door closed strong, I can also run the room closed by turning off all ventilation, turning on the aircon/humidifier and turning on the C02 gas bottle, if I have the room closed I can dial in VPD perfect, if I run the room open with full ventilation I have low humidity as outside is low humidity.

Now I've tried every configuration on this 10 x 10 room, Negative pressure, Equal pressure, and also closed with Co2 injection, nothing works, every time plants go in there they lose Turgor go sad and then begin to develop nutrient lockouts, if I take the sad plants outside they will perk right up and grow normally with the same irrigation, same water, same nutrients.

Media is coco, fabric pots, mixed lighting LED HPS CMH.

What the hell is causing this its driving me crazy.


Just an update .
Ive been speaking to a couple of buddys that had similar problems and what they did was run a 4 inch plastic pipe along the grow room floor in 3 rows with 2 inch holes drilled every foot along those pipes and endcaps put on the ends, these 3 pipes were connected to a manifold that was connected to the intake fan, basically this set up distributes the intake air below every plant up through the canopy and out. They both grow excellent plants and have no issues, they have the exact same fans as I do, only mine is in one corner at the bottom pulling in and out the other corner at the top. Im going to build this today and see what happens.
 
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Roadblock

Active member
I feel the issue is air and more to point air movement, the air dynamics of my room is not working even though the exchange is high and some cross fans are moving air around there is an issue with the air at a micro level it must come in at a single point and quickly vent in a straight line to the exhaust fan single point with the side fans not enough to move the stream much of its path, Im sure the micro-climate around the plant is somehow dead air which lowers transpiration and causes a chain reaction of symptoms, nutrient lockout, they become easily overwatered because the pot is not breathing, droopy and yellowing leaves follow, Im positive its not PH or nutrient and temps are perfect the only thing it can be is air.

Here is a good article on the importance of vertical airflow in a greenhouse I think this is at the heart of our problem in this thread, and that this actually affects more grow rooms than people realize because we cant see it and think we got air blowing around the air is right, the size and shape of the room/tent also make a massive difference whether a setup works or not, everyone is always looking at nutrients, PH, or over-watering/underwatering yet outside I can pour loads of water through them daily and never have an over/under watering situation the only difference inside if your temps/humidity is right is air and airflow/circulation.,
https://hinova.nl/en/the-importance-of-vertical-air-movement-in-a-greenhouse/
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
Sounds about right. Historically my setups have all featured airflow through the canopy, a throwback to micro grow box beginnings.

Transpiration is massively altered by differences in airflow, and it is important to have it evenly spread across the entire plant.

Good call!
 

Roadblock

Active member
Cheers Doug, I believe this is what's going on in my room, also explains why I could get a good one out and then the next round the troubles start, because Im probably on edge with airflow and so as the outside atmosphere changes so does the room and it can be enough to sit them on their ass, and the funny part is I exchange the room every 90 seconds, most tents have air coming in at multiple points at the bottom, and exhaust up top and the tent is higher than wide, so the vertical air movement is really good without much effort, but in a much bigger space that is lower than it is wide, with one point of entry and one out, that can really do some weird things with circulation, like the higher rated your fans it becomes a jetstream from in to out.

That single in and out needs to work the room and with powerful extraction the bigger room works against as its not far for the fans to pull straight across the middle and the majority of your air doesnt go through the plants even with side fans it can going straight out, there is probably a formula as to how much gets side wind mix or penetrate the jetstream , anyway there is a lot more to this than meets the eye, Im rebuilding my system so that all the intake air comes from the floor upwards between each plant through the entire crop as each plant has 4 air-outs around it facing up. I think it will make world of difference in my case, there is a similar unit called an Airglide which is a manifold with air outlets all the way under the crop.

While looking around came across this its a good read and covers lots of areas.

https://midwestmachinery.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Ultimate-Grow-Room-HVAC-Guide.pdf
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
Looking forward to your new results ;)

As an aside... I've always used 3x per minute for air exchange, so I have no idea how lower rates work out.
 

Roadblock

Active member
Got it finished today, just got to load her up with the 6 clones and will see how it goes.

Built a few things into it that will address a few bugs issues I have and temperature extremes that I get here.

I run climate control fans that adjust to temps setting, but what happens is when its cool they slow down intake and out air and so to the manifolds wont be moving much air, so I put another inline fan into the bottom of the header that runs 24/7, now when the main fans slow down the room is still being turned over through the manifolds, and when the fans speed up they take over circulation, so the room is constantly turning over from the bottom to the top, and its good breeze coming out of every hole in the manifold.

The system is a mix of deep water culture and coco lol, it sits about 16inches high the 3 gal pots are full of coco and sit inside the chamber about an inch above the reservoir, once the roots hit the res they will really power up, they are also top feed to keep the coco in range and every time they get feed the high pressure feed pump blows its excess pressure back in the res really churning it up.. Its a sealed chamber and the pots are an airtight fit, so the air pumped into the chamber can only leave through the pots, its also Gnat proof, the chamber is airtight and the pots will have a very fine paint strainer net over it so nothing can get to the coco from above, its simple but stops gnats in their tracks they cant get in to media from anywhere.

Its also very well insulated the res is just 4 garden sleepers 2 inches thick with a liner, it holds 700 ltrs so Id say a change in 3 weeks, then every 2 weeks in flower, just keep it topped up and adjusted. With the header I can lift the lid and drop a heater inside the air box, this is a good way to take the chill of your intake air in winter as its right at the source where it comes in, instead of trying to warm the room its better to heat the intake air.

A bit rough but should work real good.

20221219_192817.jpg


20221219_192831.jpg
 

Roadblock

Active member
Got things up and running and all is good, I brought some in from outdoors and they never missed a beat which is what is supposed to happen, it was the air circulation all along in my case.

If your plants are not turgid its more than likely air or water, get that right first and then look at nutrient ph type issues, if they are not turgid they are not feeding.
 

smirnoff420

Well-known member
Finally, it's looking better. Not 100% sure yet but I think it was magnesium. They seem to need lots of it, have increased to 0.5g epsom salt per Liter now. Also they seem to be yellowing very fast after switching to 12/12 and increasing light output. I think they need a lot more nutrients also with the added light from the sides. Will try to feed more next time.

Flower day 38:
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Flower day 10:
16798393671257.jpg
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Flower day 10:
16798393670225.jpg 16798393494204.jpg
 

jackspratt61

Active member
Finally, it's looking better. Not 100% sure yet but I think it was magnesium. They seem to need lots of it, have increased to 0.5g epsom salt per Liter now. Also they seem to be yellowing very fast after switching to 12/12 and increasing light output. I think they need a lot more nutrients also with the added light from the sides. Will try to feed more next time.

Flower day 38:
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Flower day 10:
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Flower day 10:
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You need more calcium in your feed.
 

smirnoff420

Well-known member
I think so but it's hard to tell. I use Biobizz Calmag which contains both. Plus epsom salt.

I will increase dosage next time I water them.
 

jackspratt61

Active member
I think so but it's hard to tell. I use Biobizz Calmag which contains both. Plus epsom salt.

I will increase dosage next time I water them.
I see less red toward top of stem. The internode are stretched and there is a lack of swelling where branch meets stem. Low calcium signs. Could try adding 0.5-1 gram gypsum per gal for a few feeds.
 

smirnoff420

Well-known member
I see less red toward top of stem. The internode are stretched and there is a lack of swelling where branch meets stem. Low calcium signs. Could try adding 0.5-1 gram gypsum per gal for a few feeds.

You mean that one with the less red towards the top? Yeah, this correlates with me increasing Biobizz Calmag and epsom salt dosage. But not sure if enough.
16799034850308.jpg


Gypsum as in that stuff that is used for drywalls etc? Doesn't need to be 'special' gypsum for plants, or? I'll try to find it.
 

jackspratt61

Active member
I see less red toward top of stem. The internode are stretched and there is a lack of swelling where branch meets stem. Low calcium signs. Could try adding 0.5-1 gram gypsum per gal for a few feeds.

You mean that one with the less red towards the top? Yeah, this correlates with me increasing Biobizz Calmag and epsom salt dosage. But not sure if enough.
View attachment 18823882


Gypsum as in that stuff that is used for drywalls etc? Doesn't need to be 'special' gypsum for plants, or? I'll try to find it.
You'll want agricultural gypsum.
 

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