what to put on the bottom of pots for Drainage?

[Wooderson]

I'm thinking of using 5 gallon nuserey pots and I wondering what if any should put on the bottom of the pot for drainage? Like rocks, gravel, or Lava rock.


What would be best?

 

[Synthettek]

Gravel works fine for me.

 

[secondtry]

Nothing. That's a myth. Adding a layer like that is worse for drainage. Just use the same media all the way through the container. I could explain the physics of but I would rather not, I have written about this many times already. Trust me . To increase drainage grow in taller containers, I use at least 12" but I prefer to use 14-16".

 

[big ballin 88]

Nothing. That's a myth. Adding a layer like that is worse for drainage. Just use the same media all the way through the container. I could explain the physics of but I would rather not, I have written about this many times already. Trust me . To increase drainage grow in taller containers, I use at least 12" but I prefer to use 14-16".

I completely agree with this. I tried using perlite on the bottom for a while but it wicked up so much moisture and never really let it go. It became a stinky mess with poor root growth. A well drained proper soilless mixture should have more than enough air in it if the point is to allow air. It should also drain well, at least in my mind.

 

[guest2012y]

I myself used to use crushed lava rocks for the first inch before adding soil mix,then I went to perlite...........it then occured that it doesn't matter at all. There was no change in anything except it gave the roots more soil mix to "play" with.

 

[Dr Dog]

Nothing. That's a myth. Adding a layer like that is worse for drainage. Just use the same media all the way through the container. I could explain the physics of but I would rather not, I have written about this many times already. Trust me . To increase drainage grow in taller containers, I use at least 12" but I prefer to use 14-16".

I also agree 100 %. I use nothing special

 

[NUG-JUG]

Nothing. That's a myth. Adding a layer like that is worse for drainage. Just use the same media all the way through the container. I could explain the physics of but I would rather not, I have written about this many times already. Trust me . To increase drainage grow in taller containers, I use at least 12" but I prefer to use 14-16".

Wow I didn't know this thanks second..and yes I do trust you (and Cheese too). I always use a layer of pea gravel from home depot at the bottom of my pots. It's large at about an inch square per rock but i'm going to stop doing that.

 

[secondtry]

Nug,

Good move. There is just too much hearsay in the cannabis world and so much of it is not correct...and it's perpetuated by the likes of E.Rosenthall and G.Cervantes! If it was up to me those two douche bags would never be allowed to write again!!! (I know I could be overly harsh but I have little love for those in place of authority who don't know jack shit, they just repeat what what they heard).

 

[NUG-JUG]

Nug,

Good move. There is just too much hearsay in the cannabis world and so much of it is not correct...and it's perpetuated by the likes of E.Rosenthall and G.Cervantes! If it was up to me those two douche bags would never be allowed to write again!!! (I know I could be overly harsh but I have little love for those in place of authority who don't know jack shit, they just repeat what what they heard).

Yea it seems the more I learn from real Growers (not just just cannabis), the more of their crap gets debunked.

 

[guest2012y]

Nug,

Good move. There is just too much hearsay in the cannabis world and so much of it is not correct...and it's perpetuated by the likes of E.Rosenthall and G.Cervantes! If it was up to me those two douche bags would never be allowed to write again!!! (I know I could be overly harsh but I have little love for those in place of authority who don't know jack shit, they just repeat what what they heard).

Hey man,Ed was cool. I smoked some herb I grew with him. Not exactly on our trip these days,but he was of use when I was 18.

 

[secondtry]

Hey man,Ed was cool. I smoked some herb I grew with him. Not exactly on our trip these days,but he was of use when I was 18.

Damn dude you get around! You sure have a cool history.

Like I wrote I could be overly harsh but the fact he still writes BS for High Times pisses me off. So much of what he writes is wrong, even today. He does us all a disservice IMO, newbies don't know any better and end up following his BS advise (granted not all of it is BS but it's not current either, and much is incorrect)

I don't mean to be a di*k, but I just really get annoyed when someone lots of people trust and take the word as gold is full of BS. Sometimes he's correct, but he's often not correct.

I am sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my intention, I tend to be crass and I tend to be grumpy with people like him who dont' even bother to make sure they are writing correct info.

Sorry man, I speak my mind and sometimes I don't consider how people will take it...

 

[Okiedope]

i've used perlite as a 2" bottom layer before w/o any of the prementioned problems. curious to why you guys think this is ineffective or unnecessary. to me it makes sense that a more porous media would have its benefits in helping the bottom roots take in water. would love to hear some feedback!

 

[guest2012y]

Damn dude you get around! You sure have a cool history.

Like I wrote I could be overly harsh but the fact he still writes BS for High Times pisses me off. So much of what he writes is wrong, even today. He does us all a disservice IMO, newbies don't know any better and end up following his BS advise (granted not all of it is BS but it's not current either, and much is incorrect)

I don't mean to be a di*k, but I just really get annoyed when someone lots of people trust and take the word as gold is full of BS. Sometimes he's correct, but he's often not correct.

I am sorry if I offended you, that's wasn't my intention, I tend to be crass and I tend to be grumpy with people like him who dont' even bother to make sure they are writing correct info.

Sorry man, I speak my mind and don't think of how people will take it sometimes...

It seems to be an overall opinion from various peeps. He was just cool when we burned so I can't really talk shit about him. I agree that these cats need to stay up to date and stop blabbing from retired stoned out lips. Really,why should they give a shit after all they have done. Bunch a stoners. I learned from my parents and "ask Ed". Looking back I see alot of the stuff he said was like "huh?"
But then again look at all the stuff you see here,and then couple that with our own opinions....surely we are confusing the fuck out of some kid who is just tired of spending his allowance on weed.

 

[secondtry]

i've used perlite as a 2" bottom layer before w/o any of the prementioned problems. curious to why you guys think this is ineffective or unnecessary. to me it makes sense that a more porous media would have its benefits in helping the bottom roots take in water. would love to hear some feedback!

Hey,

I don't have time right now to explain it in my words, so I will let Al from gardenweb explain it in his words. What he writes is accurate enough even tho some things he writes are not correct (AFAIK), like how he suggests one can completely remove the Perched Water Table (PWT); and I don't like that he suggests perlite either. Axis regular, bark fines or charcoal are MUCH better choices than perlite, as is Turface MVP. I also would like it if he would offer references for his info, even tho I think know where he got his info (expect the part about no PWT).


http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0320294031096.html

Container Soils - Water Movement and Retention
A Discussion About Soils

As container gardeners, our first priority should be to insure the soils we use are adequately aerated for the life of the planting, or in the case of perennial material (trees, shrubs, garden perennials), from repot to repot. Soil aeration/drainage is the most important consideration in any container planting. Soils are the foundation that all container plantings are built on, and aeration is the very cornerstone of that foundation. Since aeration and drainage are inversely linked to soil particle size, it makes good sense to try to find and use soils or primary components with particles larger than peat. Durability and stability of soil components so they contribute to the retention of soil structure for extended periods is also extremely important. Pine and some other types of conifer bark fit the bill nicely, but I’ll talk more about various components later.

What I will write also hits pretty hard against the futility in using a drainage layer of coarse materials as an attempt to improve drainage. It just doesn't work. All it does is reduce the total volume of soil available for root colonization. A wick can be employed to remove water from the saturated layer of soil at the container bottom, but a drainage layer is not effective. A wick can be made to work in reverse of the self-watering pots widely being discussed on this forum now.

Since there are many questions about soils appropriate for use in containers, I'll post basic mix recipes later, in case any would like to try the soil. It will follow the Water Movement information.

Consider this if you will:

Soil fills only a few needs in container culture. Among them are: Anchorage - A place for roots to extend, securing the plant and preventing it from toppling. Nutrient Retention - It must retain enough nutrients in available form to sustain plant systems. Gas Exchange - It must be sufficiently porous to allow air to move through the root system and by-product gasses to escape. Water - It must retain water enough in liquid and/or vapor form to sustain plants between waterings. Most plants can be grown without soil as long as we can provide air, nutrients, and water, (witness hydroponics). Here, I will concentrate primarily on the movement of water in soil(s).

There are two forces that cause water to move through soil - one is gravity, the other capillary action. Gravity needs little explanation, but for this writing I would like to note: Gravitational flow potential (GFP) is greater for water at the top of the container than it is for water at the bottom. I'll return to that later. Capillarity is a function of the natural forces of adhesion and cohesion. Adhesion is water's tendency to stick to solid objects like soil particles and the sides of the pot. Cohesion is the tendency for water to stick to itself. Cohesion is why we often find water in droplet form - because cohesion is at times stronger than adhesion; in other words, water’s bond to itself can be stronger than the bond to the object it might be in contact with; in this condition it forms a drop. Capillary action is in evidence when we dip a paper towel in water. The water will soak into the towel and rise several inches above the surface of the water. It will not drain back into the source, and it will stop rising when the GFP equals the capillary attraction of the fibers in the paper.

There will be a naturally occurring "perched water table" (PWT) in containers when soil particulate size is under about .125 (1/8) inch.. This is water that occupies a layer of soil that is always saturated & will not drain from the portion of the pot it occupies. It can evaporate or be used by the plant, but physical forces will not allow it to drain. It is there because the capillary pull of the soil at some point will surpass the GFP; therefore, the water does not drain, it is perched. The smaller the size of the particles in a soil, the greater the height of the PWT. This water can be tightly held in heavy (comprised of small particles) soils and ‘perch’ (think of a bird on a perch) just above the container bottom where it will not drain; or, it can perch in a layer of heavy soil on top of a coarse drainage layer, where it will not drain.

Imagine that we have five cylinders of varying heights, shapes, and diameters, each with drain holes, and we fill them all with the same soil mix, then saturate the soil. The PWT will be exactly the same height in each container. This saturated area of the container is where roots initially seldom penetrate & where root problems frequently begin due to a lack of aeration. Water and nutrient uptake are also compromised by lack of air in the root zone. Keeping in mind the fact that the PWT height is dependent on soil particle size and has nothing to do with height or shape of the container, we can draw the conclusion that: Tall growing containers will always have a higher percentage of unsaturated soil than squat containers when using the same soil mix. The reason: The level of the PWT will be the same in each container, with the taller container providing more usable, air holding soil above the PWT. From this, we could make a good case that taller containers are easier to grow in.

A given volume of large soil particles has less overall surface area when compared to the same volume of small particles and therefore less overall adhesive attraction to water. So, in soils with large particles, GFP more readily overcomes capillary attraction. They drain better. We all know this, but the reason, often unclear, is that the height of the PWT is lower in coarse soils than in fine soils. The key to good drainage is size and uniformity of soil particles. Mixing large particles with small is often very ineffective because the smaller particles fit between the large, increasing surface area which increases the capillary attraction and thus the water holding potential. An illustrative question: How much perlite do we need to add to pudding to make it drain well?

We have seen that adding a coarse drainage layer at the container bottom does not improve drainage. It does though, reduce the volume of soil required to fill a container, making the container lighter. When we employ a drainage layer in an attempt to improve drainage, what we are actually doing is moving the level of the PWT higher in the pot. This simply reduces the volume of soil available for roots to colonize. Containers with uniform soil particle size from top of container to bottom will yield better and more uniform drainage and have a lower PWT than containers using the same soil with drainage layers.

The coarser the drainage layer, the more detrimental to drainage it is because water is more (for lack of a better scientific word) reluctant to make the downward transition because the capillary pull of the soil above the drainage layer is stronger than the GFP. The reason for this is there is far more surface area on soil particles for water to be attracted to in the soil above the drainage layer than there is in the drainage layer, so the water perches. I know this goes against what most have thought to be true, but the principle is scientifically sound, and experiments have shown it as so. Many nurserymen employ the pot-in-pot or the pot-in-trench method of growing to capitalize on the science.
If you discover you need to increase drainage, you can simply insert an absorbent wick into a drainage hole & allow it to extend from the saturated soil in the container to a few inches below the bottom of the pot, or allow it to contact soil below the container where the earth acts as a giant wick and will absorb all or most of the perched water in the container, in most cases. Eliminating the PWT has much the same effect as providing your plants much more soil to grow in, as well as allowing more, much needed air in the root zone.

In simple terms: Plants that expire because of drainage problems either die of thirst because the roots have rotted and can no longer take up water, or they starve/"suffocate" because there is insufficient air at the root zone to insure normal water/nutrient uptake and root function.

Bark fines of fir, hemlock or pine, are excellent as the primary component of your soils. The lignin contained in bark keeps it rigid and the rigidity provides air-holding pockets in the root zone far longer than peat or compost mixes that too quickly break down to a soup-like consistency. Conifer bark also contains suberin, a lipid sometimes referred to as nature’s preservative. Suberin, more scarce as a presence in sapwood products and hardwood bark, dramatically slows the decomposition of conifer bark-based soils. It contains highly varied hydrocarbon chains and the microorganisms that turn peat to soup have great difficulty cleaving these chains.

To confirm the existence of the PWT and how effective a wick is at removing it, try this experiment: Fill a soft drink cup nearly full of garden soil. Add enough water to fill to the top, being sure all soil is saturated. Punch a drain hole in the bottom of the cup and allow the water to drain. When drainage has stopped, insert a wick into the drain hole . Take note of how much additional water drains. Even touching the soil with a toothpick through the drain hole will cause substantial additional water to drain. The water that drains is water that occupied the PWT. A greatly simplified explanation of what occurs is: The wick or toothpick "fools" the water into thinking the pot is deeper than it is, so water begins to move downward seeking the "new" bottom of the pot, pulling the rest of the water in the PWT along with it. If there is interest, there are other simple and interesting experiments you can perform to confirm the existence of a PWT in container soils. I can expand later in the thread.

I always remain cognizant of these physical principles whenever I build a soil. I haven’t used a commercially prepared soil in many years, preferring to build a soil or amend one of my 2 basic mixes to suit individual plantings. I keep many ingredients at the ready for building soils, but the basic building process usually starts with conifer bark and perlite. Sphagnum peat plays a secondary role in my container soils because it breaks down too quickly to suit me, and when it does, it impedes drainage and reduces aeration. Size matters. Partially composted conifer bark fines (pine is easiest to find and least expensive) works best in the following recipes, followed by uncomposted bark in the <3/8" range.

 

[FRIENDinDEED]

ooohh, i thought you trying to find something large enough to put under you r5gl buckets to catch the runoff!!! oohhh i get it now, yeah nothing at the bottom of the actual buckets would be fine, actually more space for the roots to stretch out in. . . you know, more roots more growth, more growth more buds, you get it

 

[big ballin 88]

It seems to be an overall opinion from various peeps. He was just cool when we burned so I can't really talk shit about him. I agree that these cats need to stay up to date and stop blabbing from retired stoned out lips. Really,why should they give a shit after all they have done. Bunch a stoners. I learned from my parents and "ask Ed". Looking back I see alot of the stuff he said was like "huh?"
But then again look at all the stuff you see here,and then couple that with our own opinions....surely we are confusing the fuck out of some kid who is just tired of spending his allowance on weed.

Don't worry i'm still here. Haha j/k, were just blessed nowadays with the internet if it wasn't for that I would of probably listened to him to but luckily this isnt the case. Got the best source of knowledge at my finger tips. Ii don't need to go further than the organic section. But thats just because people like Secondtry go out of their way to research deeply where others wouldn't. Than people like you Capt. who just have experience but is backed up by knowledge instead of some who just read all day.

ST, I wish i saw what you just wrote before hand. They had fscreened Fir fines at my HD, damnit.

 

[DARC MIND]

hmm what if one is trying to use some of bottom space for air? like the discussion here
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=163672
i had plan on doing something similar to wooderson on post #1, hydroton 1-2 inch layer and landscape cloth in a 15 gal tub but for help with oxygen, im not worried about drainage

thoughts??

 

[secondtry]

Air should be in the media, not at the bottom. A well designed media will hold plenty of air so there is no need for an air space at the bottom (which I see little benefit to using). But, I think I don't fully grasp your question. Could you elaborate a little?

 

[secondtry]

A problem with drainage or air layer using hydrodon, lava rock, etc, is if one is using a peat or coir based mix the particles will work their way into the bottom layer where there is plenty of pore space between the big hydroton that the peat particles will fill, thus reducing the air space while (often) increasing the perched water table which means the reason for the layer in the first place is null in void.

HTH

 

[DARC MIND]

its simple really read the thread
the idea is to increase oxygen to the borrom media of container,i have planned on using some pvc pipes mentioned in the thread as well.
isnt oxygen why smart pots work well?