What is with all the hermie seeds these days?

[TychoMonolyth]

Lol

 

[Ibechillin]

Repost from 5/22/2018:

Nothing wrong with feminized seeds, they are made using STS (Silver Thiosulfate) or CS (colloidal silver) which involves spraying to temporarily make female plants produce male parts through hormonal change. It is not stressful to the plant in any way and the plant goes back to being all female when you stop using the silver spray, it only affects the branches that are sprayed as well not the whole plant, it does not cause the offspring to be hermaphrodite as it is a hormonal change.

Regular male x female seeds are just as likely to be hermaphrodite as feminized seeds, its an inherited trait from the parent plants. Through multiple generations of selfing negative effects will surface because of the lack of genetic diversity, outcrossing should not be a problem.

I have found many female individuals that I could not reverse by stress, as well as a few that could not be reversed with STS. Why I do not know for sure.

Selfing to S4 will cause inbreeding loss of vigor and many buried negative genes will be expressed, try for S5 or S6 and you are lucky to get functional pollen Dehiscence, I find sticky pollen that is viable but does not drop, so it is functionally sterile. You can use it with a q-tip if careful. I try to not make above S3's. It is hard to use STS to make all female copies of a female clone specially if a Poly-Multi-Hybrid, a selfed female clone of that type will segregate and act as an F2 population. So very hard to find one just like the clone mother.
-SamS

you can cross two female or cross two males by transforming one to the opposite sex, a transformed female clone to male will express pollen but it is still genetically a female, the same with males they can be transformed to female to make seeds.

Transforming males to a female will also allowing smoking of the male transformed to female expression or lab testing of the cannabinoids and terpenes they can contribute to progeny.

Regardless if the female is Haze or Skunk the f1 hybrids express the same general terpene and Cannabinoids, I have made hundreds and tested them.

There may be sex linked traits but this has not been proven in Cannabis.

Intersexed plants can be male or female. Males that are intersex can make seeds on themselves or on nearby plants.

One last point is plants do not just turn intersex because they have not been pollinated, they are born with the intersex traits, be they XY intersex or intersex traits that require stress of some sort to express the intersex. Both are inherited from intersex parents.

People confuse dominate and recessive genes with what a plant recieves from the parents, but do a prunett square with two palnts that have dominate and recessive genes for the same gene and you will see progeny have a crap shoot on what they receive. Depending on what the parents have Ww X Rr for example in the case of White and Red.

Plant genetics like Cannabis can be confusing as Cannabis is a dioecious obligate outcrosser and is a bit special. (90% of all flowering plants on earth have both sex, the remaining 10 percent have unisexual male and female flowers on the same plant (monoecious species) or male and female flowers on separate plants (dioecious species) they are the minority. Cannabis is one of the minority it is dioecious.
-SamS

 

[skotty]

bit of a no brainer..

you stress 1 generation to produce fem seeds and then hermies show up in the next generation.. its called the ripple effect

fem seeds were good in the 80s/90s when cannabis was illegal and cash croppers wanted female seeds because they didnt have the space or time to pheno hunt so this spawned a craze and loads of breeders jumped on it and started cashing in on the feminized seed business not that i would calling stressing females to produce seeds as breeding its more of a hack job...

ive had my fair share of hermie seeds from fems and ill never grow fem seeds again.. any breeder worth their salt will only work with reg seeds and stress their best female for the masses whilst keeping their prized ladies locked away..

not all breeders adopt this policy but reg seeds are slowly dissapearing and most seed companies are only offering fems with a handfull of reg seeds to choose from

sad but true...

 

[TychoMonolyth]

If it's a natural stress, like end of life, you get fem pollen. No hermie.

 

[meizzwang]

Hi Guys,
I'm an old fart and have grown many bag seeds over the years. I loved Thai stick but every grow from those seeds hermed. How many strains out there include those genetics? Many...
JD

I'm starting to learn a lot of authentic landraces hermi under our natural pacific northwest photoperiod (outdoors), but some report the same strain doesn't hermi under their "natural" location of origin. Perhaps our different yet natural photoperiod is one of many stress factors for these landraces, and individuals sensitive to "photoperiodic stress" that subsequently hermi as a result can be bred out over time.

 

[Oregonism]

I haven't seen a true hermaphrodite from seed in my last 10 years of growing. I've seen some that throw nanners in their last week of flowering but I haven't had any that pollinated the other plants. And I'm an outdoor grower and start all my plants from seed.

This is in stark contrast to the 90s when I'd get nasty hermaphrodites all the time. This is because breeders have access to better stock that's had the hermaphrodite traits culled. Which is actually too bad the old hermie strains were a bitch but I feel like great phenotypes have been lost. A lot of the nasty stinky skunky stuff would hermie.

I'm also much more selective about who's seeds I sprout. I hardly ever buy feminized seeds and when I do it's from a breeder I trust knows what they're doing. I don't grow from bag seed, use seeds from reputable breeders with good reputations or friends who have their shit together. Or my own breeding. If you stick to these sources you probably won't come across hermie lines.

Every hermaphrodite I've had has been from clones. I've seen outdoor plants cloned and brought indoors reverse sex. These plants were straight females without a single male flower that didn't like moving indoors. It's not common but I've seen it happen.

I've bought name brand clones from strangers in the medical clone market and had them go hermaphrodite. Original Glue #4 and Cookies and Cream were the culprits and I'm not surprised. The GG#4 probably had sterile pollen. As soon as it showed male I moved it outdoors in late April and it finished flowering without self pollinating. It's probably not a coincidence that the guy I got some of the clones from was an asshole.

Just a side note, GG4 is also a nanner produced strain but onto something else, so not an S1. Im sure most are aware, just putting it out there for the layman...
That is breeder topic never talked about, rodelized pollen onto other donors. In practice it probably produces a fair amount of shit, but its an interesting concept when looking at the production of unknown strains like OG, Sour D, Cookies and their progeny.

I'm starting to learn a lot of authentic landraces hermi under our natural pacific northwest photoperiod (outdoors), but some report the same strain doesn't hermi under their "natural" location of origin. Perhaps our different yet natural photoperiod is one of many stress factors for these landraces, and individuals sensitive to "photoperiodic stress" that subsequently hermi as a result can be bred out over time.

Yes and yes.
In fact, I even think that clones will adapt over repeated plantings as well. I have one mystery girl that I have kept for around a decade now and she never nanners at all with cuts, whereas the first few years were touch and go, in and out. Never really changed grow techs either, very minimal, faux organic,lol.

 

[ahortator]

It must be due to all this feminized seeds trend.

It is funny to see how people chop a huge sativa and throw it to the trash bin for a few bananas, while they tolerate a few male branches on a expensive feminized hyped plant.

 

[insomniac_AU]

I've grown many strains hydroponically basically the same way now for 24 years and I have only ever had plants hermie twice in that time. The first time was the first strain I ever grew when I was young Shiva Shanti which I got as a clone from a friend. I grew it for a couple of years then it suddenly mutated and started producing hermie flowers. I was young and didn't really know what I was doing then so it could have been a range of different causes but as mentioned the recessive traits were inherited. This wasn't from a feminised seed either.

The other one was about 8 years ago and was Barbara Bud from HoGG. It's a beautiful strain but I think it's herm tendencies are inherited from the Shiskaberry in it. I will still grow it again one day though. It's refreshingly different from most things out there, still have seeds.

 

['Boogieman']

I have had a few strains throw bananas late in bloom but no seeds ever came of it.

 

[Ibechillin]

Meizzwang and Oregonism good additions on photoperiod stress. in reference to strains changing, its called Epigenetic change. Environment affects expression from same Genotype (DNA), clones from same mother can express differently or change over time in different environments/grow styles. For example if a strain has been bred and adapted/maintained indoors under HPS for years it seems understandable it might stress changing lighting and environment after getting comfortable.

Ok. has anyone noticed the difference in plants when compared to being grown inside vs. out?
For example, the PCK plants I have indoors put out much narrower leaves compared to the outdoor plants. They look like different plants even though they are clones from the same mother.

From Royal Queen Seeds:

GENOTYPE, ENVIRONMENT, PHENOTYPE

Every living organism is the result of evolution that works by the same basic principle. The genotype or genetic code carries all the genetic information regarding growth, appearance, and all the characteristics we can later observe.

It’s crucial to understand that a genotype or genetic code is not something that is set in stone but rather defines a certain range of possibilities. It mainly depends on the environment the organism lives in what specific bits and pieces of the genotype will be activated.

The interaction between genotype and environment results in a phenotype, meaning the physical expression of certain genes the environment triggered.

genotype (G) + environment (E) + genotype and environment interactions (GE) = phenotype (P)

QUICK EXAMPLE: PURPLE STRAINS

Let’s examine a cannabis related example to get a better idea. You purchase seeds from a reputable breeder and intend to grow a purple strain.

Instead of growing all plants in your indoor grow tent, you’ll decide on moving half of your plants outdoors. Besides the fact that no plant seems to be identical to one another, you’ll notice that the plants in your outdoor garden are much richer in purple colours compared to the ones in your indoor grow tent.

Although the genotype carries the information to produce purple hues, it’s the environment, and in this particular case, the temperatures of the environment, that allow two different physical expressions (phenotypes) from seemingly the same genetic code (genotype).

if you’re aiming for maximum efficiency and consistency, your best option is to select a mother plant to take clones from. These clones copy the genotype of the mother plant 1:1 and you’ll continuously end up with the same phenotype assuming a constant environment.

Let’s say you grow one of these identical clones using a hydro set-up, and one in organic soil. This varying environment might result in different phenotypes of the same genotype.

End quote from Royal Queen Seeds

I am glad you brought the fact that environment affects phenotype.

When I switched on CO2 and my new spot three strains changed so much they are almost un recognisable. Sour Diesel changed the most. Fat maple like leaves have gone super sativa skinny.

I noticed this on my blue cheese plant outdoors also, its an 80% indica.

When i first put it out it was overcast skies the first like 2 weeks and the plant grew thick fat 9 bladed leaves bigger than my head all over.

When the weather started clearing up i began defoliating and topping it. The plants new leaves are all these like hybrid leaves in between indica and sativa now. The older leaves on the bottom are still fat thick indica leaves, but all the new growth took on a different type more sativa in growth.

 

[Oregonism]

Is it possible to completely segregate female/male genes awayfrom each other, because sometimes that is the notion I get when people talk of hermaphroditic plants, but this would be an evolutionary first!

Another thing is that certain types werent ever intended for the drug pool, but reside there anyhow....Ram described male populations that could produce pistillate flowers in the absence of females, but probably hermaphrodotic flowers as well and could be considered andromonoecious to polygamous, and it is also considered extremely rare.
Are we overlooking monoecious species contibutions to the drug pool, especially when describing hermie plants, which doesnt fit the description botanically.
I have seen hundreds of plants sprout "male" gear on female plants but on separate nodes away from a female flower. This would be called hermie all day in laymans terms, but it fits the description of being monoecious. I have seen a handful of plants that showed a site or two with staminate and pistillate parts on the Same node, its only anecdotal observation, but falls into the less than 1% of all cannabis being from an actual hermaphroditic population, so it may have some merit.

 

[Ibechillin]

I have seen hundreds of plants sprout "male" gear on female plants but on separate nodes away from a female flower. This would be called hermie all day in laymans terms, but it fits the description of being monoecious. I have seen a handful of plants that showed a site or two with staminate and pistillate parts on the Same node, its only anecdotal observation, but falls into the less than 1% of all cannabis being from an actual hermaphroditic population, so it may have some merit.

You are correct if the plants are growing different sexual organs at separate nodes/flowers it would be monoecious and not hermaphroditic meaning male and female parts on the same node/flower. A quick search suggests cannabis can be dioecious, monoecious or hermaphroditic, but the terminology has all been combined to just "hermie". I wonder if this is the difference between natural intersex expression and stress induced? Many plants produce pollen sacks hermaphroditicly through rodelization stress after the harvest window, leaving monoecious expression natural during plant life.

 

[Oregonism]

You are correct if the plants are growing different sexual organs at separate nodes/flowers it would be monoecious and not hermaphroditic meaning male and female parts on the same node/flower. A quick search suggests cannabis can be dioecious monoecious or hermaphroditic, but the terminology has all been combined to just "hermie". I wonder if this is the difference between natural intersex expression and stress induced? Many plants produce pollen sacks hermaphroditicly through rodelization stress after the harvest window, leaving monoecious expression natural during plant life.

I want to reiterate that I dont negatively look on the term "hermie", its in the community, but you can see how it describes a variety of situations not just one specific incidence....Has anyone done a rodelized line and tried to STS the same line to compare?
Great comment on the monecious cycle with natural past harvest rodelization, environmental influence should be noted there too...or is it in the genotype?

 

[GoatCheese]

If it's a natural stress, like end of life, you get fem pollen. No hermie.

hi.

Sam Skunkman has stated about selecting parent-plants that you should flower your plants till they naturally start to die to find the plants that do not grow any intersex traits.
...so apparently not every plant will show intersex traits when flowered a long, long time.

Sorry i don't have the quote/link at hand and i can't be bothered to find it atm. He wrote it here on ICMag.

 

[TychoMonolyth]

hi.

Sam Skunkman has stated about selecting parent-plants that you should flower your plants till they naturally start to die to find the plants that do not grow any intersex traits.
...so apparently not every plant will show intersex traits when flowered a long, long time.

Sorry i don't have the quote/link at hand and i can't be bothered to find it atm. He wrote it here on ICMag.

Good advice. But we're not talking about bananas here. I think there's a difference. I found it on one plant out of 30. It's an extremely inefficient way to get fem pollen, but from what I've read, it's the safest.

 

[Gaslit]

Fire OG likes to make her own beans sometimes, a real go-getter that one.

Psst those beans are always top drawer. Top. Drawer.

 

[positivity]

so top drawer its sittin on the counter

 

[funkyhorse]

http://imgbox.com/AaP8ykE2


Sensi Star (male?) at 23 days flowering


How do you attach pictures?

 

[Gaslit]

so top drawer its sittin on the counter

If you got a jar of Fire on the counter break that shit up, should find one. I buy up all the Fire around here just trying to find a special one i lost, could CS a clone but i leave it to chance

 

[DoubleTripleOG]

I wonder if this is the difference between natural intersex expression and stress induced?

I'm about to find that out. The Deep Chunk that went intersex on me. Normally it wouldn't become intersex. But it was forced on it due to a light leak. So will the resulting seeds produce intersex plants ? Gonna find out real soon.